unrealistic biceps and arm muscles in general, any hope for gen8/8.1?
windli3356
Posts: 239
[unrealistic biceps and arm muscles in general, any hope for gen8/8.1?] Or we will have to wait for Gen9 to fix this flaw?
I find gen8/8.1's general muscle anatomy is on point except arm muscle, I never saw a semi realistic bodybuilder style biceps on any gen8/8.1 pro/3rd party characters(male are even less realistic than female's) nor any morph attempted to improve the situation.
There's a lot of details to cover in making realistic arm muscle group, especially when you retract the upper arms and flex it, I think it's technically possible with Gen8/8.1 male/female but no one was doing it right, freja & gertha were close but still, lacks the details, as you can see from below, human biceps doesn't extend all the way to forearm
What human biceps looks like
what gen8/8.1 biceps looks like
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I think the triceps actually look way worse in that render, though neither is ideal.
Because i'm not able to make realistic arm muscles with any Gen8/8.1 product or morphs, hopeuflly it's just my inablity at moment, hope the forum gurus will share their insights
What shaping products do you have?
musculature, musularity, easy flex, vascularity, so far none provides good results. I meant I haven't seen any good results from any artists whatsoever
Of those, Musculature seems to me like the one most likely to give good results. Have you looked at Auto Muscle Enhancer? There's a very extensive thread in the PA forum, so you'll have a lot of examples to look at.
Above result is as good as it gets with musculature, I just looked auto muscle enchancer is heck of solution for male, thanks for that, but there's still no solution for female, any suggestion is welcome
Later in the thread, people start sharing their results with porting AME over to G8F, and I imagine they share their steps to do so. The PA was working on AME for G8F, but hasn't been heard from in quite some time due to a personal tragedy.
Just bought AME, wow! That's exactly the result I aimed for!! thank you so much, It'd saved me so much money from combination of 5 shape morphing products should I know this one look this good. Still haven't figured how to swap the gender figure yet and apply the correct UV, texture, move the male figure into female to apply this morph and all the little details, but just by looking at Terry's result, all of them looked fantastic, I will start asking in that thread.
Just read what happened to that PA, I hope that he's ok, so I won't even complain about the lack of female AME, he should take all the time he needs
These guys were talking about this the other day they might be able to help they also posted some examples https://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/526721/accurate-muscle-morphs-for-males-g8-g8-1#latest
The problem is that real muscles span joints. This doesn't matter on normal figures, but a muscle that is attached in two places on the same bone is at best odd looking when it gets big enough to be seen.
You keep writing this and I keep not understanding - the Daz figures don't have muslces, attached to one bone or two, the muslces are just morphs of the mesh.
Rich, I think what he might be suggesting is that the muscle morphs are based off of an idea that the muscle is attached in two places. Whether that's true or not, I couldn't tell you. However, the fact of the matter is, the bigger you make something without increasing the poly-count, you run the risk of it looking unrealistic/terrible.
Tbh, we're not going to be seeing anything more realistic when it comes to muscle morphs without dramatically increasing character poly-counts and introducing new soft body/bend physics so that muscle expansion/contraction/stretch coincide with limb articulation, surface collisions & associated limits due to the greater muscle mass. We also need to keep in mind that extreme muscle mass & high vascularity in itself tends to look unatural.
I'd suggest checking these:
https://www.daz3d.com/musculature-hd-morphs-bundle-for-genesis-8
https://www.daz3d.com/auto-muscle-enhancer-hd-for-genesis-8-males
https://www.daz3d.com/swole-for-genesis-8-male
spice it up with:
https://www.daz3d.com/vascularity-hd-for-genesis-8-female-and-male
https://www.daz3d.com/add-some-veins-hd-for-genesis-8
From my experience, the current situation is just lack of good 3rd party morph support, it's very true that all gensis's 8's default & pro figures' mesh don't have proper muscle anatomy builtin(good but not good enough) and I used to believe none of the 3rd party products can fix that, because the poor foundation they had to work with, until I used AME recently, I'd go as far to say that it provide the perfect result I never thought was possible on Gen8/8.1. it's a shame that there's only a male version and female version will probably never gets released due to author's personal tragedy.
I really hope Daz can step up their games and improve their own community content's eco system, ask author's permission when they not able to continue, buy off the IP, and continue working on what's left off. and commission them when products sets on sale.
I have them all, AME is the only one solved my problem, musculature and swole are very useful as well. now only if a female version AME is avilable.
Attached is a PDF of using the Mesh Grabber tool to modify the Musculature HD Flex Control Property. Specifically the Bicep Short Head Left and Right Parameters with user created Morphs.
Note: You will need the Musculature HD product and Mesh Grabber to follow along. A similar effect could also be performed using a D-Former instead of the Mesh Grabber.
The Bicep Short Head Parameters in the Musculature HD product are the only ones I have found that contract to leave the gap you mention above. Also included is my attempt to recreate your original post photo with only these techniques and the AME product. You can find extensive postings on the AME Muscle Enhancement over at:
Auto Muscle Enhancer HD [Commercial] - Page 35 - Daz 3D Forums
Hope it helps get you a little closer to what you are looking for! TD
Hi Terry, thank you for replying to this thread, using mesh grabber on musclature is a smart move! I will try it on my G8F next, since last time I made this thread, I took the info from gordig and bought AME, and then used the transgender tool you used in other thread to morph a G8M into female, the result is outstanding, not quite there yet, but now getting much closer, a much better looking bicep and won't look too werid when you twist the upper arms.
Only if a AME G8F version exist, it would slove nearly all problems(realistic muscle anatomy and veins) but knowing the tragedy the author had, I won’t ask for such thing and I wish him the best.
windli3356, Welcome to the AME party!
I am glad my tips and tricks can help get the results your looking for. I am continuing to work on the G8/8.1F platform to get something comparable to the AME product. I think I am closing in on some solutions and will post once I am at least satisfied with the results. TD
If you have this
https://www.daz3d.com/body-mixer-for-genesis-3-and-8-male
there is a morph in there I made that addresses the following.
Zev0 it's this for female too? since exactly that image is missing from the presentation for the female version https://www.daz3d.com/body-mixer-for-genesis-3-and-8-female
That's G8F in the images? Fantastic! TD, any chance you'd consider selling or distributing your morphs here or elsewhere? Seems there's a demand for them in the absence of any other solutions to these bicep issues. There's a real PA gap here that you are successfully addressing.
TD, since my above post, I discovered a product over at Rendo called Super Geometry Remastered that I might try. It doesn't address the split, but it does provide for the appearance of a properly contracting bicep, which could be enhanced with the use of the elbow morph in ASE for G8F, which does a nice job with the contraction on its own. Waiting for Mesh Grabber to go on sale so I can justify it. Tried to model a split with the deformer as well as SimTenero, but that flopped.
RenderPretender,
That product looks intriguing for sure, the arm pose and bicep tension descriptions and pictures look pretty good. May look into it if I get the chance. I have been working on using the hidden AME Bicep and AME Bicep Pose 1 properties using some negative morphs and additional ERC controls that could allow a very low use of AME, but still access the split bicep and accompanying texture from AME. I am almost ready to post some results, and either possibly instructions, or files. I have never shared my files, so want to make sure they won't mess with any installed products, just layer over and enhance them. TD
You mean ASE for G8F, or AME? Not sure I follow. I get what you're saying about sharing your files, though. Basically, I'm looking to get back to using my G8F characters, as they're just languishing right now. A convincing split bicep is the only impediment.
Well came up with something useable for a Split Bicep on the G8F/G8.1F platform, willing to put these three files up as a Freebie if anyone is interested. This is a combination of a few morphs, Mesh Grabber, and DFormers. The files are layered on other products, and ERC frozen to the hand bend, and forearm bend/twist movement, with a master controller to control the blending. I have never shared files before, so may take me a day or two to package and zip them correctly. TD
They look great!
I have a project that I'm working on but it will be a while until it's customer-ready:
Terry, I must have missed this. Looks fantastic! Did you ever make the files available? I'd love to have them if you're still offering. Are there any software/product requirements for them to work? Looks like the best option currently available for G8F.
RenderPretender,
I never published these files, I only had one other response months ago, and this thread seemed to have died. I have since continued to "tweak" on my files, and am pretty happy with the results. I will look at cleaning up all the files and packaging it for you. IAdditionally I created a vein flex control system requiring the SWM Veins product if you are also interested in that. I have also done a basic flex enhancement and split bicep morph set for the G9 figure which definitely helps with there being so few products available for that platform yet. Let me know, I can package them separately, or as one overall package that you can then pick and choose from. Thx for the continued interest! TD