Witch Doctor and Basketball Player? Oh, the fail
aaráribel caađo
Posts: 690
Oh, DAZ, why don't you hire some people of color? Please. The racial cluelessness that leads you to present asian characters as martial artists and geishas just turned really ugly with the bundling of the Witch Doctor with Darius 6. You guys just didn't think this through at all, did you? I'm so happy you've putting black people up front, but to do so combined with really old school racist images and the most common non-felonous stereotypes (black people are all athletes) is tragic.
A single person of color—just one!—who has some authority over what goes out would have said, "dudes, no way," and you would have included something else. Maybe a cool set of fantasy armor. I'd like to get my hands on more Napoleonic era stuff. Why not a dignified gentleman set? Or a prospector set, looking for gold? An artist or engineer. Anything but a stereotype dredged up from a time when the most popular movie in America valorized the Klan. The closest analogy I can think of for white people is if you introduced a "Utah" character and used a polygamy image for the promo image.
Please, DAZ, please: do better. Hire a consultant to teach your people about racial sensitivity. Hire some people of color and give them enough authority that they call you on this kind of stuff before it hits the website. I can't express how offensive the Darius promo image is without using withering profanity.
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We've already discussed this in other threads here. This release is no worse in stereotype than the Asian character releases were, and honestly, it's more about culture than race. Anyone who does this stuff for a hobby knows that it's the cultural,manta sy, and Sci Fi stuff that sells. They could have been more sensitive to the stereotype that this reminds some of, I admit, but this is hardly the poster case to be banging the drums of racism over, either.
Also, as someone has pointed out in another thread, VooDoo and its related customs are still very much alive and well in the world. Some people may use these things as stereotypes, but they also represent very real cultural icons as well for many.
I admit I as a bit surprised with the content included in the pro pack for these characters and I can sympathize with your sentiment entirely.
The Witch Doctor has nothing to do with Voudoun—this is a purely racist stereotype of Africans. When European colonialists and slavers needed to justify their crimes to themselves and make their "product" palatable, they did so by creating the idea that Africans (and other non-white people) were sub-human: debased in culture and faith. The hateful intent of the people who originally created this kind of imagery is no different than the Nazi's who created images of Jews as hook-nosed deviants controlling the banks.
The Witch Doctor concept is so thoroughly rooted in racism that it can't be redeemed. If this kind of 3D art were more prominent, this would rise to the level of a national outrage. It's really, really super racist, even if the artist didn't realize it (which I suspect is the case).
This is a shameful moment for DAZ—worse than the stereotyped Asian images, which are pretty bad. I truly hope they will take this as a moment for some soul searching about their racial ignorance and insensitivity. They may not intend to be racist, but this is way deep into KKK territory.
TheWheelMan, if you're uncertain about how this fits into a history of racism, slavery and colonialism, and how this image is simply too hateful for most mainstream publications, look at how the Tin Tin series was dealt with in the US. An early Tin Tin book, Tin Tin in the Congo, was never published in the US because it's portrayal of Congolese as witch doctors was too offensive even for 1970s America. You won't see images like this in movies, on TV, or pretty much anyplace because its so deeply entrench in racism. Hollywood, a place that can't even honor a film on Martin Luther King, Jr., moved on from this kind of stereotype 50-70 years ago. DAZ should not be bringing it back.
Okay, I need to stop now because thinking about this makes me too angry.
When these sorts of ethnic stereotypes continue to be plastered on the pages of the store, it sends a message. If you were a person of color and you saw these sorts of outdated stereotypes just what would you be thinking and feeling? What would you think about the company and the people here on the forums? This not only reflects poorly on Daz3d it also reflects poorly on all of us. And you know, there is another stereotype being clearly presented to the world here, even though its not visible in the store promos. That other invisible stereotype that while unseen is still very much presented loud and clear?
Ignorant Insensitive White People
So yeah, every time you pin an ethnic stereotype on someone of color in your promo images, just remember the stereotype you pin on your self at the same time.
I have no issue with asking DAZ to be more culturally sensitive. I do think, however, that if people are really outraged by this issue, then it should have been an equally offensive issue when the Asian characters were released. There are offensive stereotypes toward all people of color, after all, not just those of African descent.
oh believe me, silence does not equal approval. The Asian stereotypes are just as bad. Many of us have avoided saying anything... well to be honest for fear of not being able to state our objections in a calm civilized manner.
I think this is worse because of the historical angle, but you're right that the way asians are portrayed is absolutely dreadful. I started back with 3D after those figures were released, so they didn't have the impact of this, but, OMG, DAZ, really! LycanthropeX is 100% right. The message this and your other stereotyped images send is a nasty, "F*U, don't shop here" to people of color.
I was super excited about getting some of the pro bundles with the 70% discount. Now I'm reconsidering. This needs to be fixed and apologized for.
Yeah, I get that. But honestly, with all of the arguments I've seen here over the years about petty stuff, at least seeing people worked up over a more worthy cause would be a nice improvement. :)
I can't tell whether you mean that to say, "this is finally a serious thing for people to get worked up about," or, "this, too, is another petty thing people get worked up about."
With Jerremy Lin making headlines after headlines not long ago, where's Lee 6 in the basketball outfit promos?
i meant that I'd prefer people getting worked over something like this. Something worthwhile.
The worst part is this is NOT the first time this has been brought up, the same complaints were brought up back with the Gen 3 figures. We grumble and gripe about how wrong it is, and they just keep doing it. Which says loud and clear that they don't care.
That makes me really sad. I may have to stop doing business with them. This is just so over-the-top.
Very, very sad.
I hate to say it, but that may be the only answer. Its obvious the only thing they give a damn about is making sales, as long as we keep buying they will go on doing what they have always done. The only way to change it is if enough people stop buying that it starts hurting them in the bank account.
I hope you don't leave =). And I would still get the pro pack for the characters as these are wonderful black characters worth owning. But I would certainly send feedback about the choice of pro pack content and continue to voice your views since they certainly should be heard.
I bought Kyra before the new characters were released. I don't think I could shake the associations with Darius and the other new character.
I was going to do some 3D work tonight, but this really put me off it.
The point is why did the whitey get a suit and not Darius?
The point people of color get stereotyped and nothing else. Well, actually, in this case, its that black people get stereotypes so racist even the Klu Klux Klan might hesitate at using them.
Agreed. stereotypes exist for a reason, that there are actually many groups of people that actually fall into those categories/stereotypes. I can appreciate that the OP has some extreme feelings towards perceived stereotypes towards certain people, but I see no reason to get bent out of shape over some 3D models, especially ones that can be morphed into any shape and use any skin and wear any virtual outfit you want. Don't like what DAZ is promoting, then you can change it to what suites your needs.
Agreed. stereotypes exist for a reason, that there are actually many groups of people that actually fall into those categories/stereotypes. I can appreciate that the OP has some extreme feelings towards perceived stereotypes towards certain people, but I see no reason to get bent out of shape over some 3D models, especially ones that can be morphed into any shape and use any skin and wear any virtual outfit you want. Don't like what DAZ is promoting, then you can change it to what suites your needs.
and if every white character was portrayed as a dumb redneck hick, if that was the only way you saw white people represented. If you saw a shop that all their representations of white people were redneck dimwitted trailer trash types... you say that wouldn't leave a real bitter taste in your mouth?
This ignores the way images like the Darius one have been used to reinforce prejudice and enable things like slavery and colonialism. This isn't a neutral image—it was one created and built on over centuries to communicate the idea that African people are primitive and inferior.
I think its hard for people who didn't grow up as brown to understand what it means to only see negative and stereotyped images. By fact of having many different portrayals to pick from, white skin makes the ones that aren't "you" easier to ignore. But when most of the people you see in tv, movies, magazine and books don't look anything like you, and the people who do look like you are either shown as doing a few things (sports, entertainment) or as thugs, criminals, and other "bad people," those images have enormous power.
Both new releases would have been fantastic if DAZ just left out the Witch Doctor stuff. The Swamp Witch outfit is actually quite nice, except the name. But the name says, "primitive black people."
Disagree. That's just what you've been exposed to, your perception. There are actually many groups of people that actually DO NOT fall into those categories/stereotypes
What gets me is i have just been taking a closer look at other 3D shops that i frequent and yes i did find some stereotypical portrayals in some of their promo images ( probably worst with Asians, seems Asians get stuck as geishas and kungfu guys everywhere) but not nearly as many as i have seen here. In fact i noticed that "voodoo and witch doctor ) characters were shown as both black and white people about evenly in some cases, same with "tribal" characters
So not saying its not an issue on other sites... but it seems so much worse here... why is that?
I bought Kyra before the new characters were released. I don't think I could shake the associations with Darius and the other new character.
I was going to do some 3D work tonight, but this really put me off it.
Yeah, I hear you. I feel that way sometimes too.
I do admit though, it would be a shame to Miss Darius. He is actually one of the better looking and more realistic gen 2 males I've seen with some stunning skin textures.
But I understand why you would avoid these characters.
This is how you do a black witch:
That Grainger Girl
DAZ, pay attention.
That same artist, Jonathan Wyke, has another image that suggest what kind of awesomeness the Darius Pro Bundle could have had. Seriously, does anyone think a character like this wouldn't sell better than the half-baked, racist witch doctor crap? I mean, look at that hat!
Steampunk Paint
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This really isn't a "political" thing. It's a respect thing. It's about seeing people as more than one element of who they are. And most importantly, it's about not using images deeply tied to the racist past.
As far as your ability to understand, that has little to do with your skin color as much as your willingness to listen to and try to understand how other people live in the world. I'm white, but I've worked in predominantly black companies. I've paid attention to the stories the black men and women I know tell each other, when their guard is down. And all of them have experienced things that I simply couldn't imagine experiencing. Driving while black—that's a real thing. People making horrible assumptions about you because of your skin color—that's a real thing. Not knowing if you didn't get hired was because of you or your skin—that's real.
It's very hard to understand if you don't have that experience. I only know about it because I worked with people who got to be comfortable enough around me to be open and real. White people aren't bad, they're not racists. But they often don't realize what it means to not be white. Which, in this case, means understanding how images deriving from cannibal and head-hunter caricatures are extremely hurtful.
[Edited to fix a typo]
I said it in the other thread; I think the bigger problem here is not that these outfits are available, but that they were used in the initial promotional material for these characters. There's nothing inherently wrong with any of those outfits (although I might have avoiding using the term "witch doctor" myself), but it's the unintentional "Look, here's a black man! Now you can make witch doctors and voodoo priests and everything else black!" pitch that came across. Same with the two Asian characters, it was a massive flood of "ALL ASIANS KNOW MARTIAL ARTS" and "ALL ASIAN FEMALES ARE GEISHA!"
All DAZ would have to do is just mix up their releases and not choose the most stereotypical outfits to promote new releases and things would probably be fine.
I'm a member of a Facebook art group that specializes in black and African fantasy and sci-fi art (they like my character Smacky), and I can tell you with certainty that if I posted those Darius witch doctor pics there...well, I won't because I don't want Ann and other DAZ staff to have to read the kind of mail they'd get. Someone just needs to think a little before preparing the promos for the next ethnic character release.
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I would go as far as saying with a name change, the female witch character would be an excellent outfit. The "witchy" stuff (broom-charm thing) wouldn't draw special notice and then you'd have a nice historical bit of clothing you could use for a lot of things. I'm less convinced about the Witch Doctor costume. That would be very hard to place as anything other than a colonialist hate fetish, but the context multiples it a hundred times over.
When I complained about this on my Facebook page, I couldn't bring myself to post the image. It would just be hurtful.