Eyebrows

defectedsaint

Why has it not become an industry standard that models either come with fibermesh eyebrows, face textures without eyebrows, or L.I.E options that cover up the eyebrows? I was about to buy the new, as of this writing, Malka character that was just released but after looking at the options and seeing there were none to remove her eyebrows I ultimately decided not to. I like for my characters to have the same hair and eyebrow color and I can't do that if artist force eyebrow colors on me. I know that there are products to remove eyebrows, but the product that I know of isn't updated for 8.1 yet (although I'm sure it will be). Even if it was, it's about to be 2022 and wanting models without eyebrows is something people have been griping about for years (I mean that's the whole reason there is an extremely popular script that removes eyebrows off characters). I can't speak for anybody else but I'm not buying any new models that do not have some type of option for an eyebrow less face, no matter how much I like the model... and I really like that Malka model. But I'm still not buying it. 

Ascania

Because the industry does not like it one way or the other.

FSMCDesigns

not everyone uses fibermesh brows or desires them. Until a product comes out that works on G8.1, you can always take the texture into an image editor and do it yourself, many of us did this long before there were products for this purpose.

defectedsaint

I get that the industry doesn't desire it, one way or the other and I also know not everybody likes fibermesh brows. And sure, I could hop into photoshop and remove the brows myself, I've done it many times for G3 characters. But again, why should I be forced to do that? What if I didn't know how to use Photoshop, or Gimp/whatever people use for image editing? That's not my situation, but should image editing experience be a requirement for rendering, especially in a plug and play type system like Daz that's supposed to be built around ease of use and customization? What is the issue with the artist creating browless textures themselvs? What would it detract from the product? Assuming such a thing was standardized, how would it be detrimental to anybody?  Who would this practice hurt?

FSMCDesigns

defectedsaint said:

I get that the industry doesn't desire it, one way or the other and I also know not everybody likes fibermesh brows. And sure, I could hop into photoshop and remove the brows myself, I've done it many times for G3 characters. But again, why should I be forced to do that? What if I didn't know how to use Photoshop, or Gimp/whatever people use for image editing? That's not my situation, but should image editing experience be a requirement for rendering, especially in a plug and play type system like Daz that's supposed to be built around ease of use and customization? What is the issue with the artist creating browless textures themselvs? What would it detract from the product? Assuming such a thing was standardized, how would it be detrimental to anybody?  Who would this practice hurt?

Absolutely IMO. editing textures and mesh is always part of the 3D creative process. if a user is just clicking and then rendering there isn't much going on in the creative process. When you look at amazing artwork at places like Artstation, many of those artists created EVERYTHING from scratch for their art. DAZ has made it so much easier to artists to buy better assets to create their art, but that should not make anyone rely only on what they provide, especially with there are tons of tools like substance painter, maya, blender, marvelous designer, etc to help with the creation process as well as plenty of other places to get 3D assets..

As for the last part of your post, the DAZ 3D ecosystem is a small niche in the much bigger 3D world and DAZ prices are much lower than the industry standard meaning that PAs have to pick and choose what to create and how much to make sure they get a proper return on their time invested which means some features may not make it into a product. If a PA crated a brow removal plugin for GF8 and it didn't sell well, they might not make the effort to create one for GF8.1

defectedsaint

FSMCDesigns said:

Absolutely IMO. editing textures and mesh is always part of the 3D creative process. if a user is just clicking and then rendering there isn't much going on in the creative process. When you look at amazing artwork at places like Artstation, many of those artists created EVERYTHING from scratch for their art. DAZ has made it so much easier to artists to buy better assets to create their art, but that should not make anyone rely only on what they provide, especially with there are tons of tools like substance painter, maya, blender, marvelous designer, etc to help with the creation process as well as plenty of other places to get 3D assets..

As for the last part of your post, the DAZ 3D ecosystem is a small niche in the much bigger 3D world and DAZ prices are much lower than the industry standard meaning that PAs have to pick and choose what to create and how much to make sure they get a proper return on their time invested which means some features may not make it into a product. If a PA crated a brow removal plugin for GF8 and it didn't sell well, they might not make the effort to create one for GF8.1

I can't exactly knock that. I understand where you're coming from when looking at the industry as a whole. But when looking at Daz specifically, I can't say that I agree. If you're using 3DS Max, or Maya, you're doing professional rendering that usually entails far more skill/time/experience than the average "hobbyist" renderer. Daz doesn't exactly have the same target market, as you said, Daz has it's own little niche that they've carved out. That's why I don't understand why artist who make Daz models don't offer this feature. 

If you're an artist, help me to understand the process of creating a texture. When making the skin, are the eyebrows not added after the skin details have been completed? It would just seem weird to me if artist made the skin and eyebrow at the same time. If artist do indeed make the skin first, what's the problem with saving that texture before they put brows on it? The issue that I have is that I literally see no extra work in this, but maybe that's because I son't understand how skin textures are made. 

Catherine3678ab

defectedsaint said:

FSMCDesigns said:

Absolutely IMO. editing textures and mesh is always part of the 3D creative process. if a user is just clicking and then rendering there isn't much going on in the creative process. When you look at amazing artwork at places like Artstation, many of those artists created EVERYTHING from scratch for their art. DAZ has made it so much easier to artists to buy better assets to create their art, but that should not make anyone rely only on what they provide, especially with there are tons of tools like substance painter, maya, blender, marvelous designer, etc to help with the creation process as well as plenty of other places to get 3D assets..

As for the last part of your post, the DAZ 3D ecosystem is a small niche in the much bigger 3D world and DAZ prices are much lower than the industry standard meaning that PAs have to pick and choose what to create and how much to make sure they get a proper return on their time invested which means some features may not make it into a product. If a PA crated a brow removal plugin for GF8 and it didn't sell well, they might not make the effort to create one for GF8.1

I can't exactly knock that. I understand where you're coming from when looking at the industry as a whole. But when looking at Daz specifically, I can't say that I agree. If you're using 3DS Max, or Maya, you're doing professional rendering that usually entails far more skill/time/experience than the average "hobbyist" renderer. Daz doesn't exactly have the same target market, as you said, Daz has it's own little niche that they've carved out. That's why I don't understand why artist who make Daz models don't offer this feature. 

If you're an artist, help me to understand the process of creating a texture. When making the skin, are the eyebrows not added after the skin details have been completed? It would just seem weird to me if artist made the skin and eyebrow at the same time. If artist do indeed make the skin first, what's the problem with saving that texture before they put brows on it? The issue that I have is that I literally see no extra work in this, but maybe that's because I son't understand how skin textures are made. 

Many skin textures are made from photographs of real people, most real people have eyebrows. To have a browless texture requires that somebody removes the eyebrows. And I also check for both options when selecting characters to purchase. I also factor in the cost of the product. If it is regularly an inexpensive item I have less expectations that if it is more pricey. 

 

defectedsaint

Catherine3678ab said:

Many skin textures are made from photographs of real people, most real people have eyebrows. To have a browless texture requires that somebody removes the eyebrows. And I also check for both options when selecting characters to purchase. I also factor in the cost of the product. If it is regularly an inexpensive item I have less expectations that if it is more pricey. 

 

Yeah, I get that people use actual photographs as a reference and generally speaking, people have eyebrows. But it's not like the eyebrows are automatically there as the skin is digitally made, something has to be made first. I've looked at plenty of face maps up close and from how it appears to me, the skin is made then the eyebrows are drawn on top. In most cases the eyebrows literally look like simple photoshop brushes, but the skin definitely seems to be made first because there is detail on it under the eyebrows in some cases.

Catherine3678ab

defectedsaint said:

Catherine3678ab said:

Many skin textures are made from photographs of real people, most real people have eyebrows. To have a browless texture requires that somebody removes the eyebrows. And I also check for both options when selecting characters to purchase. I also factor in the cost of the product. If it is regularly an inexpensive item I have less expectations that if it is more pricey. 

 

Yeah, I get that people use actual photographs as a reference and generally speaking, people have eyebrows. But it's not like the eyebrows are automatically there as the skin is digitally made, something has to be made first. I've looked at plenty of face maps up close and from how it appears to me, the skin is made then the eyebrows are drawn on top. In most cases the eyebrows literally look like simple photoshop brushes, but the skin definitely seems to be made first because there is detail on it under the eyebrows in some cases.

 We're apparently buying different textures. Artists may remove existing brows to add on their own in which case, yes, why not have both options available to the customer. I am not sure that you understood, many make skin textures from the photographs - not as references - they use the photograph. They may [and probably should] touch up said photograph so it looks nice on the models and not like everybody else's who are using the same skin resources.

So, yes, the eyebrows are automatically there - unless they are removed by the artist. Many are purchased from 3d-sk, so you can see for yourself ;-)

 

richardandtracy

Hmm. How to persuade one's skin photo model to shave every square inch (including eyebrows and hair) prior to photographing... Nahh, not likely to happen, however dedicated they are to the cause.

If that's the case it's going to take time & effort to photo edit out the brows. And how much extra will it add to the sale price of the texture? I'd be surprised if it adds anything at all, so the work would, in effect, be being done for free. OK, if the artist is doing it as a freebie, but if they are trying to make a living from it, it's not good for their finances.

Catherine3678ab

That's why a lot of products are either not made for sale, or are dropped by the hosting companies ... even storage costs $.

One can edit textures in an image editor, "clone" brush from the forehead to cover over where the brows are. This technique does not work well with all photos, but certainly for some.

Or one can invest in something like: https://www.daz3d.com/skin-builder-8-for-genesis-8-females  which allows one to make their own textures with or without brows.

https://www.dailymotion.com/video/xagxzo

And it's a trend ... although NOT for the eyebrows lol:

https://ca.startrek.com/article/one-trek-mind-celebrating-persis-khambatta