Posing in Daz is still too difficult
kenmo
Posts: 908
I find posing in Daz way too difficult and tedious. It is by far the most difficult task I encounter when composing a scene. In my 15 plus years of using Daz posing has not progressed much. The tools are not intuitive enough and way too tedious and frustrating to use, even when using a predefined pose as a starting point.
When will an improved and more intuitive pose tool or function finally be available in Daz?
And YES, I know about the puppeteer. It does not make the task anymore simpler. Matter of fact IMHO, it makes it more complicated.
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Odd because I think that posing is the strongest plus for DAZ Studio. I actually paid for Poser (11 I think) and couldn't get used to it so dumped it and went back to DAZ Studio (I've been using DAZ Studio for about 15 years too).
I just use the sliders. No viewport dragging, no Puppeteer. It is now second nature - I hardly have to think about it. I tried posing in Blender too but didn't like that either.
Nope, not difficult. Just tedious.
With a post like this you need to be more specific - what exactly are the issues, and how would you like it to behave?
...I do a mix of sliders and Active pose. I often start with a pose preset as a base for further modification.
I particularly find the various hand pose utilities to be invaluable as that is probably the most tedious part of a character to pose given all the bones to deal with (something like 22 per hand including the wrist).. Two of the hand pose utilities (Hands Dial Up and All hand Poses) also include slider controls in Parameters/Poses/Hands
The posing tools in Daz have not improved much in the past 15 years. They are still as awkward, tedious and unintuitive it has been since I first used Daz. I like Daz. It's a stellar product. But the posing tools are complete garbage and need to evolve to something more user friendly and less tedious/frustrating.
I can not comment on Poser but do own Poser 11 Pro. However I find ALL of the features and tools in Poser a complete pain in the butt. Not sure if posing in iClone and their line of products is easier or worse. Maybe one day I will download their trial and see for myself.
Can you suggest a way posing could be improved? I'm all for new tools and better ways of doing things - especially time-savers - but as I said, compared to Blender and Poser, DAZ wins hands down (forgive the pun).
The problem with posing is that we do it in simulated 3D space (on three axes) and that can be tricky on a 2D screen. That's why I don't use the tools that, for example, grab a hand and push and pull the connected bone-chain. I've watched videos of people doing it that way but I can't get used to thta method. So I stick with the sliders unless I'm using the Active Pose tool with parts (like feet) pinned (now that is really a tool that could use some improvement).
I have been switching from Poser to DAZ Studio over the last little while. I'm finding that the posing tools in DAZ Studio are intuitive and effective. Of course, I have yet to do anything really challenging, but I'm confident that posing will proceed smoothly enough with the appropriate amount of application.
I concurr, perhaps my expectations exceed that which is attainable through the existing technology we are currently using.
Just like @contedesfees I was poser user and now trying something with Blender . DAZ Studio seem easier than Poser and Blender . Posing using FK sometimes slow , because we need to readjust each bones , but several tips I can share are :
1. For forward kinematic ( FK) always thinking that the parent always have bigger movement . i.e When you doing swing pose , try rotate the hip + Torso untl your shoulder position already in place you want . Then rotate/bend your shoulder to get your final bones ( hand) place in correct position . Now fine tune the bend /ForwardBack and twist . Just remember if your end bone not right that means the parent bone ( 1 or 2 upper level ) need correction
2. Use Power pose combine with PIN tool . Pin tool like lite version of IK . For better result use 4 viewport setup so you`re only dragging in othographic view . Also make sure to open Windows>Tab> Tool . In there you can set PIN tool behaviour .
3. Dont make hard . Perfect pose in every angle is hard . Until that , try set your camera view first . Then start posing from there .
4. If you wanna fun when learning . Grab some aniblok , scrub the animate timeline and find pose you like . Save temporary that pose using Puppeter tool . Then go to parameter tab and check each bones parameter
Just curious: might you have experience with a different software package which has more intuitive posing/animation tools? Sometimes I watch videos from people who use Maya or Source Filmmaker and I'm amazed at the seeming ease they have with making good poses quickly. Mind you, I know the video makers are experienced and know what they're doing, but it sure seems amazing to me. I've been using DS since it was first released, so I'm only used to its posing and animation tools. Just curious if you're coming from a different angle.
This is why I have a ton of pose packs and save my own poses. Both full poses and partial body poses. I use poses to get me usually 70% to 99% of where I want to be and then fine tweak the rest. Having tools lke Pose Fusion hot linked also comes invaluable, for mirroring a full or partial pose. But you have to be selective not everyone makes good poses. QX has some of the best IMO.
Expressions though, I can spend hours on a single expression.
It really depends on if you're looking at posing from a 2D perspective frame of mind rather than a 3D one, what I mean is are you considering the pose that you're making from different angles or are you trying to pose using the image from only one position/perspective?
If so, you need to consider the figure, and it's pose in 3D space, which can be difficult to get right...
The reason why I ask is that as far as the tools daz are using, they are the best for posing because you can literally orbit each body part with the camera, as well as the sliders for precision positioning, plus there is the universal pose tool, and the power pose tools, there's not much more they can do except give you a doll with joint articulation to transfer to the program on your screen... (Which would be an amazing invention!)
Oh, and puppeteer is excellent for pose storage, and animation as well!
I've seen this mentioned before but I wonder why saving a pose with Puppeteer is better? I just save a pose preset but then I never did get along with Puppeteer so I hardly ever use it.
Because you can not only save an unlimited number of morphs, and poses in each tab, but you can also alter those morphs, and poses by sliding the preview in between different dots to create new poses, plus you can also record cameras and their customized settings and movement/animations as well as lights, and every prop/and clothing state!
So instead of having to load from different separate library folders for each separate pose/morph/cam/light settings or scroll through endless script entries, you can just go to the puppeteer tab and click a pose dot instead...
Plus when it gets stored in a scene you can load entire separate libraries full of different poses, morphs, cameras lights and props/clothing within a simple puppeteer tab instead of navigating to multiple libraries!
Let's say you have a scene with two characters, and you want to render your character/s into 20 morphs, and poses for one character, and a totally different set of 20 morphs poses made for another character you can just load a pre-saved puppeteer setting to the character/cam/light directly instead of navigating to 20 different poses and morph libraries/script menu.
But I'm not trying to convince you either, just explaining the many uses for it as it's an amazing tool!
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My fear is that it doesn't make it into DS5 due to that very fact it is so underrated but thankfully PAs like zev0 still use it for their products!
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Agreed, it's a solid part of my workflow as much as using the iray previewer!
Love Puppeteer - I think more users utilize this tool more than what others think. It is an essential tool in animations. One thing I wish Puppeteer can do is control more than one figure/prop - then this would be AMAZING. Also allow text labels.
To OPs complaint - DAZ Studio's posing tools are probably the most simplilest in the biz... the lowest bar amongst the other 3D editors, at least for me. I've used other 3D tools such as Blender, 3ds max, and Maya. It is true that DAZ does not have flexible rig controls - its simplicity has its pros and cons.
Sorry to say - this was really a low effort thread other than being a rant. Is there more you can add as to why the controls suck and what you wish to see? Have you used other 3d apps and see features you wish you saw in DAZ? I agree that DAZ's posing controls have not fundamentally changed in a long while but with a combination of keyboard shortcuts and mouse controls, while it could be better - it is efficient enough.
1. Take the "root" off of the Genesis characters HIP. Moving a shoulder should NOT move a foot because the hip is moved during the 'torso' movement of the shoulder.
2. Give us some form of gravity for crying outloud. I have spent weeks trying to get an animation cleaned up from the "sliding feet", and it is still sliding all over the place.
3. Fix the bone heiarchy, there are only 3 bones in an arm, not 5, the current heiarchy of the G8 characters make it almost impossible to import animations from other sites (FBX) to work with. Without some form of translation magic voodoo 3rd party application fix in place.
4. Bring some base pose LIFE into the characters, why after buying (or getting) a character, do I have to then have to go and buy an addition morph package to get some form of muscle pose as well? (here's a hint of what I mean, try to curl your arm up without your bicept flexing... go ahead, take a drink of coffee or whatever, did it flex... yeah, okay so WHY do I have to buy a morph pack specifically designed to do that for the G8.1 characters. I know, there are dollar signs under that question...) Mind you there are 'some' IK type movements in Studio, but seriously, I think those were a seperate purchace as well.
5. I'm not sure if it is me, or something I've done to the Base character, but I think the G8F left side is ever so slightly shorter than the right, in her full 0 base pose, drop her to the floor, and her left foot is still off the ground.
I think that would be a good start, gravity and bone heiarchy would fix a multitude of problems right there, it would certainly resolve IK posing issues. And I'm actually here to find out about that aspect, so I'm off to a different thread.
V
I do believe changing Bone hierachy and how to they works will make clothing or wardrobe library we`ve had will be not useable anymore . Unless there is tool to fix those problems . Or user need to buy new wardrobe with new weight system ( take a look at RI CC3- transfer weight system for prop into wardrobe)
IK solver always problem in DAZ But there is tool from 3duniverse to minimize it if people still prefer to work in DAZ studio . And Blender is free and @wolf359 already create several easy to follow tutorial about DAZ-Diffeo - Mixamo - Retargeting Combo . I think Blender NLA is Stereoid version of DAZ Animate . So worth to check and learn
Yeah I agree with you , some basic flex morph should be in Starter Essential
Just thought that my discussion on ik-chains may help somebody here. Look at the signature. Then I agree that if the genesis figures may have a proper human rig, as rigify in blender for example, it would be much easier to animate in daz studio.
Being new to Daz, I find myself agreeing and disagreeing with this sentiment.
I use my basic knowledge of anatomy to get the basics of a pose right. Legs, torso, neck and head are usually easy, and I often refer to my own body to guide me when posing arms. I'm all fingers and thumbs when trying to achieve a desired hand pose, but I'm improving with practice. It is tedious though, and do not get me started on expressions. I think I will be investing in pose packs for both areas at some point in the near future.
BUT... when the figure interacts with another object, I find posing is a nightmare. If I want G8M to pick up a cup, building the pose joint by joint is laborious and frustrating, even when I can move the cup to meet the hand. If I'm trying to make G8M interact with an immoveable target, say gripping a steering wheel while simultaneoulsy occupying a car seat, I find it's even harder. And when I get around to learning about collisions and how to avoid them, I'm not expecting things to get easier.
This one maybe suit your need https://www.daz3d.com/limbstick-for-genesis-3-and-above
Check the promo and example video
I'm not sure that the first half relates tot he second, but that is a character design issue not an application issue
Gravity? Anyway, yes they know that the fixing of the IK pins is not rigid - but changing that may well introduce other issues, and may well require content update.
I was under the impression that splitting bend and twist bones was pretty common when there is only one map - TriAx uses three maps, so the bends can be localised 9as they generally should be in vertebrates) while the twist can be distributed along the bone (as it generally should be in vertebrates). But again, this is a content issue - Genesis 1/2 did use a single bone with TriAx handling the different behaviour of twisting and bending.
This is a packaging issue, not an application issue.
I can't say i've noticed this.
I will summarize myself between two software, one specific for animation, the other a game engine used for multiple purposes. In particular, I really enjoy animating with Daz, it's all easy if we study a little. Everyone sees it differently, but I really enjoy animating in Daz - different from the 'headache' that is Unity (without any animation plugin). These last few months have been fun and instructive, I've been studying a lot and 'the more I study, the less I know'. Sorry for the 'figure of speech' here (and I don't write well in English). Just in other words, the further I go, the more things I discover, whether in a simple animation - a bend in the arm (change between two values) - requires attention to the curve or curves of animations, input and output values that will determine, by end, something I want in this simple animation.
Of course, I could stay here writing for hours how much it fascinates me (human movement) but that's not the case. I like the philosophy of movement - in games, that's what I watch the most. I think Daz makes animation a lot easier, and I don't disregard other old software, traditional in the 3D and games industry, like Maya, I've been working with him for many years, but I think Daz is more intuitive for animations. Whether at Daz, Maya or Unity, I still have a universe to learn.
In June - I think - of this year, I discovered Daz's 'transfer utility', which made my work with my own models, made by me in Zbrush, a lot easier. It was thanks to Daz that I got to know other retopology software, including a Russian software that practically does all the retopology itself...
I can't find animation in software like Daz boring or monotonous, whereas I cheer, listen to music... read academic articles I like or do other things. I have a lot of fun.
My experience with 3D tools is mostly with the modeling apps like Wings3D, Hexagon, Silo3D, Blender, 3D Coat, MOI3D and a little bit of Curvy3D & Sketchup. For rendering and compositing a scene I prefer Vue.
I am more of a photographer as I have seven DSLR cameras (two Olympus and five Nikons). Most of my computer time is spent in Lightroom, Photoshop and a little bit in Rebelle, ArtRage or Corel Painer.
I've used Poser 7 & Poser 11, MakeHuman, Fuse/Mixamo. I find Mixamo the easiet to pose in. And Posers the worst. Daz is too fiddly and tedious for me. As I said earlier, perhaps my expectations are too high and unrealistic. I like to compose a scene in Daz using their excellent figures and props that are availble. I will then bring the scene into Vue and render as I prefer Vue or Iray. Sometimes I will render the scene in Daz and then bring it into Photoshop, Painter, Rebelle or Artrage to use it to paint over.
Cheers & many thanks...
PS: I love DAZ. It's an outstanding app. My only complaint is the posing. It seems like it has not evolved much.
Rebelle 5 is excellent. But im using only Photoshop for now (to paint). For rendering, in the case of animations, I really prefer Unity. With some knowledge of URP or HDRP, we can easily render good scenes. Still, doing this kind of work in Daz itself, since the focus is on photography, seems better to me. With good hardware, we can do a lot without worrying about portability to other software. I really like Iray, I think - for the quality - light in rendering. I prefer the composition of images using HDR (taking advantage of the light) with backgrounds - here yes - made in other software. They are diversified techniques for diversified purposes. In general, when rendering for painting, I only use the 'character' in scene (usually G8). I know how to compose or make HDRs using Photoshop and Daz himself (rendering the position of lights) which makes it easier for me with adverse scenarios or from models or photographs.
About digital painting, I'm very inspired by an artist called 'Wlop', he has recognized works, he has a page on DeviantArt and ArtStation.
The best way I find to pose the hand is to ignore the finger placement at first while just focusing on the palm's accuracy in the placement, then simply fit the fingers around the cup/pole/resting on the leg/etc...
I also use power pose to get the fingers into the general position and then use the pose tab (NOT parameters) for fine-tuning as you can select multiple body parts and move them with the various bend/twist/forward/backward sliders!