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If you use directional lights, you could exclude hair surfaces from GI via UberSurface. This could help with render times.
As for my iris morphs, that's up to you. I made them to give the look I like at 100% under the default settings of RadiumCornea, but I wasn't consulting any anatomy manuals, I just artistically shaped it all.
What maps are you using to drive specular strength and/or roughness? As Mjc says, this is clearly the root.
It looks to me that roughness might be too low to get cleanly resolved with this level of bump and pixel samples.
I include roughness maps for G2M and G2F UVs, they also work acceptable for V6 and M6. If you can, try converting them for M4 UV and see if it helps. I'm sorry I don't have this texture set, so I don't know what the specular maps are like.
Low roughness is polished material. If your map has values close to black, and you feed it to roughness, it's guaranteed to firefly like this. You could overlay an additive grey layer in LIE, that should help.
And of course, when you change specular maps, be it strength or roughness, the multipliers will need adjustment because these maps are never done to some standard in DS world, they are all different.
The maps are pretty much standard Daz maps, the only real difference that I can see is the UV set. It could be those roughness maps that are the culprits as they are not the same UV as the rest of the textures. I'll bake them to the M4 UV and see how we go.
CHEERS!
I would be much obliged if you started reading the documentation right away. Granted, the shaders per se are not yet detailed there (however, with each update of the ODT file in the google folder, there are more and more things up there - I just uploaded a new iteration BTW), and there are WIP chapters like the one on using volumetric shaders on primitives, but the section on render scripts is pretty much finished.
It would really help me if you actually used the documentation and then maybe suggested ideas about explaining something that I may have overlooked.
Yeah, sure, I'll have a look, can you PM me a link to the new set?
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If you use directional lights, you could exclude hair surfaces from GI via UberSurface. This could help with render times.
As for my iris morphs, that's up to you. I made them to give the look I like at 100% under the default settings of RadiumCornea, but I wasn't consulting any anatomy manuals, I just artistically shaped it all.
What GI, where am I using it? I could change the hair to UberSurface, that shouldn't be a problem, any settings you can suggest?
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Thank you. I am looking at the light settings now and I would suggest you try lowering the softness to see if it stops the shine leaking.
Spotlights are not "real" lights, so their softness is a cheat, and hence may introduce artefacts in a more physically plausible shader in certain scenarios.
I have only tested Radium surfaces with an area back light, the one you can find in my Mesh Lights folder under the name of "Rim Stick". It loads with a control camera (CameraBackLight) - if you copy the pose from the spotlight, you can paste it to this camera and the mesh will move because it's parented (but you may still need to adjust it or the light intensity - it's an UberAreaLight shader, so all the controls are in the Surfaces tab).
You will see the light plane itself is not fully transparent, that's to help positioning. If you locate it in the Surfaces tab and turn opacity to 0, it won't be visible in the render but it will still emit light.
There you could also adjust the Samples value, if you find there is more noise than you like.
If you are using DelightGIHDRI, then GI is on. UberSurface has a control called "Occlusion", but it's a control for all diffuse ray visibility, so it will turn off GI shadowing on hair if you disable it. Oftentimes, there's not that much difference it makes to the final render.
And sure, you can find my base settings here: http://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/54913/P150/#815439
The link is still the same, you just redownload the ODT and overwrite the old one. It's the only file that has been changed yet.
One person posted awesome renders of terrain with displacement at the 3Delight forums; check them out, folks!
http://www.3delight.com/en/modules/forum/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=4275#p21902
Don't miss the zoomed in ones:
http://www.3delight.com/en/modules/forum/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=4275#p21916
Thank you. I am looking at the light settings now and I would suggest you try lowering the softness to see if it stops the shine leaking.
Spotlights are not "real" lights, so their softness is a cheat, and hence may introduce artefacts in a more physically plausible shader in certain scenarios.
I have only tested Radium surfaces with an area back light, the one you can find in my Mesh Lights folder under the name of "Rim Stick". It loads with a control camera (CameraBackLight) - if you copy the pose from the spotlight, you can paste it to this camera and the mesh will move because it's parented (but you may still need to adjust it or the light intensity - it's an UberAreaLight shader, so all the controls are in the Surfaces tab).
You will see the light plane itself is not fully transparent, that's to help positioning. If you locate it in the Surfaces tab and turn opacity to 0, it won't be visible in the render but it will still emit light.
There you could also adjust the Samples value, if you find there is more noise than you like.
If I'm honest, I only put a backlight up to see if I could get a backscatter effect with Bjorn's ears and I didn't take it out later. I took it out of this render of Anna and she kind of looks better. The hair is actually a bit crap, it was a freebie with DS Creative and I only used it as it was different to ones I keep using.
I really want to drag my characters out of the studio settings and outside where a single light source will be the order of the day. There's a set DM did called Instances that will serve for tests. If I like them then I'll get a bit more adventurous. The things I lack in my library are exteriors, hair and clothes. Now I have a bit more financial freedom I'll start to build more of a catalogue of all 3.
CHEERS!
If you are using DelightGIHDRI, then GI is on. UberSurface has a control called "Occlusion", but it's a control for all diffuse ray visibility, so it will turn off GI shadowing on hair if you disable it. Oftentimes, there's not that much difference it makes to the final render.
And sure, you can find my base settings here: http://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/54913/P150/#815439
Ahh, I see, I did wonder. So this is a good single light source for exteriors!?
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I wish the old forum archive was available....there are some very impressive, even if older 3DL version, displacements on it...some of the work done in the fur displacement threads was very nice. But I don't think they were as impressive as those images. I've always liked how 3DL does displacement...and at a much lower 'cost' than just about any other renderer around.
One of the misunderstood things about 3DL displacements is that it doesn't increase rendertime, very much...it's having occlusion/tracing displacement for accurate shadows that increases the render time...sometimes very dramatically...but the results are often worth it.
And because of the way 3DL does displacement, I think with very good/accurate displacement maps, you really don't need any other control maps for things like skin. When you get down to it, scale wise, when all is said and done, the area covered by what all the subdivision/microdisplacement gives is a small faction of a square mm. In other words, a good displacement map should pretty much match skin details, not at a microscopic level, but close to what our eyes see on a regular/average basis.
Now I'm not saying that all skin renders should be done without control maps...because even with the best displacement maps, real tight close-ups fall short (I haven't made any that I'm completely satisfied with and none of the available ones that come with any of the textures available are good enough) and also this only works for 'normal' conditions...no 'wet look' or 'oily' or anything like that. But I like the results, even with the better standard maps on medium close-ups and 'out'....to where even having the full load of skin effects doesn't really matter. And of course, the larger the render resolution is, the better the maps need to be.
Yes, I've been playing with this a lot lately. I'm not sure if everyone knows, but 2+ yrs ago I started on a baby morph for Genesis. Well when my hard drives died I lost some of that work (not really lost but I haven't been able to recover it,yet). Plus that was a dialed morph that relied on a freebie morph set. I've since restarted work on it, this time it's a sculpted morph relying only on Basic Child, which isn't going anywhere as that's a standard, included Genesis morph. But that's not really the important part, for this discussion...the important part is that none of the skin textures available (free or paid) that I've tried are satisfactory for a newborn to toddler. So, I've been wavering between releasing without any skin settings or making my own skin texture. And I've been playing with all sorts of control maps...and my favorite set up, so far is just a very detailed displacement (custom painted, not just a desaturated diffuse map). Unfortunately, I don't have a render of my last round of tests...I pulled a real bonehead move...I overwrote the save with a later render...I forgot to change the name. (the original was without hair...the hair version sucks)
I've tried it with my SSS experimental shader, Tofusan's, AoA's and omnifreaker's UberSurface (I don't US2, so I haven't tried it in that) and US takes the most tweaking...especially the way it does fresnel, requires tweaking.
DOH! You have to be registered to see them, I don't have time right now.
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That's a bit of a read! LOL! What did you reckon to Tofusan's shader, I downloaded it but haven't really tried it.
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Yes.
DelightGI + a nice HDR IBL panorama + my scripts + the helper scene to set up a specular-only distant light (described in the docs) = easy exteriors with nice shadows. That recent Jayden render was done that way.
The spec-only light from the direction where the sun is on the IBL will supplement the diffuse-only DelightGI.
But then, you will need to leave the hair seeing GI (for the HDRI to have it cast shadows) and that will mean longer render times. Acceptable for stills, either way.
I see now. It's transparent even without backlighting. Either way, the mesh light works much, much better for rim lighting than spotlights: way easier to position and control. And of course, it makes more sense from the physics POV.
And to tell the truth, I will often stick a rim light (hence the name "rim stick" LOL) in any scene, even exteriors.
DM's Instances is an amazing set.
There are quite a few beautiful freebies around, hair and exteriors included. Many hair models are older, but they can be scaled and parented to every figure, G2 included. Looks like you have the M4 for G2, so you can use M4 freebie clothing, too... There is a wiki out now listing a lot of stuff very conveniently: https://poserdazfreebies.orain.org/wiki/Main_Page
I haven't used it enough to really say...it is different than any of the other ones. The PDF and presets are your friends...you'll need them, until you get used to it. But it suffers the same speed issues that other SM built ones suffer...slowness due to the way it's compiled.
The increase is a bit more noticeable in the raytracer because due to the hider itself being a raytracer, you always have to trace the displacement for it to be actually seen as displacement and not bump. But it's still not a real killer, not even on a RT SSS figure and with GI around.
And if you notice in a photo studio/shoot, the backlights/rim lights, even if they are 'spots' of some sort often have huge diffusers attached to them...
I don't think you really need a displacement map for skin unless you want to zoom like crazy.
Diffuse + specular map + normal map should be enough. (Sorry Iray render below with G2F base but could have been done with 3DL)
A baby has rather a very soft skin so I don't really see the use of displacement
And yes 3DL is very good on displacement. That is one of its strength. that I saw in my early test with it
Why displacement instead of bump....
Because I like displacement more. Basically, since it doesn't really affect render times, when done without occlusion/tracing and only minimally (at least in my tests) at low to moderate (like what you'd expect for a skin surface) levels, I find it easier to deal with. It's only when you start getting into large movements with accurate shadows, that I find it bogs down the render. That and it's more 'physically correct'. Plus I find that often you don't need a specular map, either...so instead of 3 or 4 maps...you only need 2.
Why displacement instead of bump....
Because I like displacement more. Basically, since it doesn't really affect render times, when done without occlusion/tracing and only minimally (at least in my tests) at low to moderate (like what you'd expect for a skin surface) levels, I find it easier to deal with. It's only when you start getting into large movements with accurate shadows, that I find it bogs down the render. That and it's more 'physically correct'. Plus I find that often you don't need a specular map, either...so instead of 3 or 4 maps...you only need 2.
That's a valid choice within 3DL but that may be overkill for a baby's skin.
@@Kettu : tried a Cornel Box. I get wrong colors and no IDL with your shaders and lights whatever I tried. And it's slow
Image below : left is what I get from DS shaders. Middle is with your shaders and rendered with the fast raytrace script. Right is with your photon mapping kit
PS sorry about the crappy renders but there was no use in letting them finish
Yes.
DelightGI + a nice HDR IBL panorama + my scripts + the helper scene to set up a specular-only distant light (described in the docs) = easy exteriors with nice shadows. That recent Jayden render was done that way.
The spec-only light from the direction where the sun is on the IBL will supplement the diffuse-only DelightGI.
But then, you will need to leave the hair seeing GI (for the HDRI to have it cast shadows) and that will mean longer render times. Acceptable for stills, either way.
Thanks, I'll look into it.
CHEERS!
I'll take a look at them, all that scaling and parenting is a bit of a faff, there is plenty of decent hair around that is already for G2, I just need to pick some up, and then there's LAMH which is also on my shopping list.
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I haven't used it enough to really say...it is different than any of the other ones. The PDF and presets are your friends...you'll need them, until you get used to it. But it suffers the same speed issues that other SM built ones suffer...slowness due to the way it's compiled.
I see, I only got it because it was free and I was intrigued. I really like Kettu's now though and I'd like to master that.
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The middle one looks like GI cache preview only; this pops up first, then the render progresses to 50% and cooks on from there.
To get indirect lighting, you need the DelightGI light - there's no surface-based IDL in the Radium shaders. If you put an HDRI map into it, it will handle both IDL and IBL. Or you can do without a map and use any other light for direct illum - either dzDefaults, or my SimplePhys delta ones,or UberArea. Just make them use correct falloff. AoA's Distant gives wrong colour bleed because of the non-standard shadow tracing direction, but that's the only real issue I have encountered.
Slow, like how slow? When I am using my scripts and DelightGI, render times for a whole dressed figure with hair even and RT SSS on skin + props background are under hour on an i7 laptop. Unless your computer is much older, your render times should be comparable.
Maybe simplest scenes like the Cornell box are slower than with other methods, but that's to be expected, according to the DNA guys. The raytracer is apparently optimised for complex scenes.
What is your OS, BTW? There are all sorts of weird things going on under WINE, as Mjc will testify.
Yes you are right!
BTW - Rogerbee, you may also want to pay attention - I found out the real culprit, it's not even the fake softness on a delta light... It's the Edge Strength cheat. Stupid me forgot to disable it on lips, I think. And, well, it just misbehaves in complex lighting situations. It looks sweet in direct-lit closeups when the viewing angle is right... that's that.
Without Edge, any light can be used for backlighting (but area ones are still much nicer to look at).
I've made a new RadiumSolid version, it has mapped strength for that Edge cheat (so that it could at least be painted out of nostrils, if you do want to use it) and an additional energy conservation switch.
Now, this is a scene without any delta lights at all. No specular lights, only the DelightGI doing the diffuse IBL+IDL; the specular component is all glossy reflections (Radium shaders).
I used Papermill Ruins E from here for the environment and light/reflections: http://www.hdrlabs.com/sibl/archive.html
Render time is about 17.5 minutes at 8x8 pixel samples (the DOF is real DOF, the panorama is very hi-res) and 128 GI samples. Rendered to EXR via the ToEXR script (no caustics here). Reflection samples are 16 to 64, for different materials.
General spec bounce depth is 5, but I set skin and cloth to 1. Shiny items only use 1 diffuse bounce (general is 2).
Skin is SSS only, of course, it's an Elven princess after all =)
If you zoom close, there is noise. I am okay with that because I like the film look, I may even add more grain in post. The solution is obviously to increase sample counts.
https://3delight.atlassian.net/wiki/display/3DFM/How+to+Eliminate+Sampling+Noise
Why three versions:
- one is an EXR with a Fujifilm FP2900Z look applied in Natron;
- another is the same EXR tonemapped in Picturenaut and further "auto-adjusted" in IrfanView;
- the final one is the tonemapped EXR with a LUT applied in i-display.
I like the contrast-y LUT look best for artistic reasons. But you can see there is a lot of options =)
I was playing around again with the kit...and this is a combination of shaders from the kit and my SSS shader...and the clothing is actually the default surface, because I being too lazy to come up with settings for it. I like the skin lighting model for use on cloth...not too difficult to to tweak for cloth settings.
And then, I got a bit carried away...and kept changing things/adding things...in general, just having fun...
Yes you are right!
BTW - Rogerbee, you may also want to pay attention - I found out the real culprit, it's not even the fake softness on a delta light... It's the Edge Strength cheat. Stupid me forgot to disable it on lips, I think. And, well, it just misbehaves in complex lighting situations. It looks sweet in direct-lit closeups when the viewing angle is right... that's that.
Without Edge, any light can be used for backlighting (but area ones are still much nicer to look at).
I've made a new RadiumSolid version, it has mapped strength for that Edge cheat (so that it could at least be painted out of nostrils, if you do want to use it) and an additional energy conservation switch.
Ok, great, is that in the download package now then?
CHEERS!
All three of those are brilliant and really don't look like Daz renders. This is the key to showing just what 3Delight can do and that there is still room for it alongside Iray. Right up till the beta was announced, Dreamlight was all over 3Delight, now, he's dropped it like a hot brick in favour of Iray. We have to fight 3Delight's corner and make sure it stays right where it is!
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