Licensing Conundrum

JasonSWrench

So, I was really excited to see Ron's newest release today, Dystopian Future Backgrounds. However, the more I thought about it, the more I wondered about the standard DAZ license. Most of the products are designed to be used in renders, but these backgrounds almost seem like works of art in and of themselves. Even Ron's other works (backgrounds and overlays) seem more inline with the traditional expectations under the DAZ license. I even checked out the SKU page to see if there was any further information about the license or copyright, but there wasn't anything specific. Ultimately, I wondered what would be allowable under the standard DAZ license. Not that I'm specifically interested in doing anything with Ron's Dystopian Future backgrounds specifically, but they made me question things. 

Here's a theoretical application. Let's say you wanted to create a poster and sell it on Deviant Art. If you used one of Ron's backgrounds and inserted a 3D render of a figure over the poster, is that enough to technically make it your own work? 

Jason

BeeMKay

It's like with any other background image in the store on sale, like, a photo. So, using it as a background in your render or postwork is absolutely okay. Even if they are really looking great. :-)

(This is no legal advice, please check back with a lawyer for that.)

3WC

Terms of Use. Two Dimensional Works. Subject to the terms and conditions of this Agreement, User may (i) access, use, copy and modify the Content in the creation and presentation of two-dimensional animations and renderings, (ii) incorporate two dimensional images (including two dimensional images that simulate motion of three dimensional objects) derived by User from the Content in User's other works, and (iii) publish, market, distribute, transfer, sell or sublicense User's two-dimensional animations, renderings and other works; provided that User may not in any case publish, market, distribute, transfer, sell or sublicense any renderings, animations, software applications, data or any other product from which any Content, or any part thereof, or any substantially similar version of the Content can be separately exported, extracted or de-compiled into any re-distributable form or format.

hacsart

As an aside, Those backgrounds look a lot like the sort of art that can be created with Wombo Art.. still a  really nice bit of artistic work, though!

 

Angela3D

I'd like to know what he used to make them. Wombo Art, and some apps like it, aren't very clear on where the images used in the filters come from. Wombo art dosen't allow you to sell the images. Unless they have changed their TOS very recently.

hacsart

Had a go in Wombo Dream on the Ipad

 

CypherFOX

Greetings,

Yeah, I came here to say the same thing...  This really feels like Wombo Art, but those aren't anywhere near 3840x6272px in size, so something else is going on.  Scaled up and retouched?

--  Morgan

 

WendyLuvsCatz

I am glad I was not the only one thinking this, I actually used the https://app.wombo.art/ page after the store went live to do these but refrained from mentioning it

Poser was originally meant to be painted over so postwork a possibility

also there is Nvidia Canvas

WendyLuvsCatz

and other apps can enlarge and enhance

My Waifu2XCaffe version was 8640 x 15360,

 I had to crop it and reduce jpg quality to upload it to the forum as was huge

 

rcourtri_789f4b1c6b

JasonSWrench said:

Here's a theoretical application. Let's say you wanted to create a poster and sell it on Deviant Art. If you used one of Ron's backgrounds and inserted a 3D render of a figure over the poster, is that enough to technically make it your own work? 

There isn't much of a conundrum here.  A 2D non-interactive image is covered by standard licenses.  As to your hypothetical poster, it's "your own work," even if you don't add a figure or prop.  You could sell or give away copies of your poster.

Your renders are your renders; the licensed content you use to make those renders is someone else's.

Matt_Castle

rcourtri_789f4b1c6b said:

As to your hypothetical poster, it's "your own work," even if you don't add a figure or prop.

The standard Daz licence does say that that:

User may not in any case publish, market, distribute, transfer, sell or sublicense any renderings, animations, software applications, data or any other product from which any Content, or any part thereof, or any substantially similar version of the Content can be separately exported, extracted or de-compiled into any re-distributable form or format.

And any render where someone can fairly trivially reconstruct assets used in it does not meet that stipulation.

It is important to read and understand the Terms of Use section in the EULA, even if you don't read through all the legalese about jurisdictions, remedies and severability.

rcourtri_789f4b1c6b

"And any render where someone can fairly trivially reconstruct assets used in it does not meet that stipulation."

By their very nature, products consisting of background images or HDRIs can be partially extracted from an end user's renders. In some sense, any model or content that is visible in renders can have some of its information exported or extracted in some "re-distributable form or format."  If we take the "any part thereof" to its logically absurd conclusion, then no render containing models, shaders, background images, or HDRIs could be distributed.  A reasonable interpretation of the EULA would take the "exported, extacted or de-compiled" prohibition to mean that one couldn't re-format the backgrounds for use in another application as backgrounds.

 

MelissaGT

WendyLuvsCatz said:

I am glad I was not the only one thinking this, I actually used the https://app.wombo.art/ page after the store went live to do these but refrained from mentioning it

Poser was originally meant to be painted over so postwork a possibility

also there is Nvidia Canvas

I never knew this existed...it's really cool! So I'm assuming that it would not be legal for one to make a piece of art using the app...and then use the resulting artwork as a background in a render?  

WendyLuvsCatz

MelissaGT said:

WendyLuvsCatz said:

I am glad I was not the only one thinking this, I actually used the https://app.wombo.art/ page after the store went live to do these but refrained from mentioning it

Poser was originally meant to be painted over so postwork a possibility

also there is Nvidia Canvas

I never knew this existed...it's really cool! So I'm assuming that it would not be legal for one to make a piece of art using the app...and then use the resulting artwork as a background in a render?  

nothing on the Website saying you cannot

I don't know about the phone app 

MelissaGT

WendyLuvsCatz said:

MelissaGT said:

WendyLuvsCatz said:

I am glad I was not the only one thinking this, I actually used the https://app.wombo.art/ page after the store went live to do these but refrained from mentioning it

Poser was originally meant to be painted over so postwork a possibility

also there is Nvidia Canvas

I never knew this existed...it's really cool! So I'm assuming that it would not be legal for one to make a piece of art using the app...and then use the resulting artwork as a background in a render?  

nothing on the Website saying you cannot

I don't know about the phone app 

Interesting. I've made some pretty fantastic stuff already that would be perfect as a background for character portraits that I've had in my head for ages. I just never had the right background. 

Matt_Castle

rcourtri_789f4b1c6b said:

"And any render where someone can fairly trivially reconstruct assets used in it does not meet that stipulation."

By their very nature, products consisting of background images or HDRIs can be partially extracted from an end user's renders. In some sense, any model or content that is visible in renders can have some of its information exported or extracted in some "re-distributable form or format."  If we take the "any part thereof" to its logically absurd conclusion, then no render containing models, shaders, background images, or HDRIs could be distributed.  A reasonable interpretation of the EULA would take the "exported, extacted or de-compiled" prohibition to mean that one couldn't re-format the backgrounds for use in another application as backgrounds.

With an HDRI or a background image that is actually used as a background, then having foreground elements complicates extraction, and with an HDRI you are only seeing a small portion of it, so anyone re-building the original file (even accounting for the loss of HDR data) would have quite a lot of work to do, and need many renders to extract the original from.

You cannot simply drop in texture images on a plane, render them out, and say "I am now allowed to redistribute this fabric texture pack because it is all rendered images". Same here, the backgrounds must be altered in some way to make the recreation of the original non-trivial.

Angela3D

Here's the TOS for wombo, for anyone who is interested: https://www.wombo.ai/terms

MelissaGT

Angela3D said:

Here's the TOS for wombo, for anyone who is interested: https://www.wombo.ai/terms

So basically you can't use artwork generated from the app or site in any commercial ventures...such as using it as a background in a render and selling the render. So...what is the point...if you can't use the output of the app in any way? That seems kind of a waste of time other than to acknowledge that it's pretty.

rcourtri_789f4b1c6b

(Matt_Castle):

With an HDRI or a background image that is actually used as a background, then having foreground elements complicates extraction, and with an HDRI you are only seeing a small portion of it, so anyone re-building the original file (even accounting for the loss of HDR data) would have quite a lot of work to do, and need many renders to extract the original from.

           But this is my point: Pointing the camera at some section of a backdrop or HDRI doesn't fully or perfectly reproduce the backdrop or HDRI in my final render, so a background-only render is not necessarily a TOS or EULA violation.  The presence or absence of foreground objects is only relevant if our concerns were limited to the extraction of data for purposes of "re-building the original file" in the same (or similar) computer format.  However, someone could violate the TOS or EULA without coming close to reconstructing the original files.  And the ease/simplicity or difficulty/complexity of the process isn't relevant.

Could someone then use a background-only render in a new composition in which they've added a foreground object?  As a technical matter, of course they could.  Would that background image violate the TOS or EULA?  I think we'd need to see individual examples.  (Of course, one could also use a render with many foreground objects as a background in a new composition with an added foreground object--the foreground objects of the first render become part of the background of the new image.)

hacsart

I wonder if that TOS is more geared to Wombo Tune, which seems to be their main moneyspinner?

MelissaGT said:

Angela3D said:

Here's the TOS for wombo, for anyone who is interested: https://www.wombo.ai/terms

So basically you can't use artwork generated from the app or site in any commercial ventures...such as using it as a background in a render and selling the render. So...what is the point...if you can't use the output of the app in any way? That seems kind of a waste of time other than to acknowledge that it's pretty.

Matt_Castle

@rcourtri_789f4b1c6b: If you wish to test the limits of what Daz will consider legitimate use, that is your decision, but my advice remains against rendering out any texture or background on its own without additional artistic input.

Angela3D

hacsart said:

I wonder if that TOS is more geared to Wombo Tune, which seems to be their main moneyspinner?

MelissaGT said:

Angela3D said:

Here's the TOS for wombo, for anyone who is interested: https://www.wombo.ai/terms

So basically you can't use artwork generated from the app or site in any commercial ventures...such as using it as a background in a render and selling the render. So...what is the point...if you can't use the output of the app in any way? That seems kind of a waste of time other than to acknowledge that it's pretty.

The TOS was a direct link from the wombo.art webpage. So I would assume that it's the same for both apps.

3D Vitality

Sooo... it seems that the product in question is gone . Now it would be nice to know exactly why. As far as I read the wombo TOS they say something about their service and the app etc. are under copyright, but say nothing about the RESULT of the use = the generated pic.  They stated that they are also responsible for the sources they use (as far as I understand) - and no one  can upload anything at the time. 

Similar to other generator software the result should be your own. Example: Inspirit by escapemotions, a mandala & kaleidoscope generator (paid software, but if wombo offer their service for free, that's their decision )

Anyway, it would be nice to read a official statement on that.

 

hacsart

and emailing WOMBO customer support to clarify this issue over two weeks ago has not yet produced a response from them..

WendyLuvsCatz

I did some videos using Wombo Art

Of course I don't monetise mine