Squishy Human
Rod Wise Driggo
Posts: 2,225
in The Commons
Anybody already tried?
I'm usually a sucker for morphs or simulationbased products helping to make things more natural. With this product (and its promos expecially) I have a hard time to really see the difference and to learn what types of collisions are supported. Might become old but it would have been helpful to mark the areas in the promos where simulation really makes a difference.
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The biggest difference I could see from the promos is that George had more realistic belly folds.
I used to be super interessted in products like this, for all I want is to enhence realism on characters.
Sadly, I used to be disapointed with every product like that.
I don't see much of an effect either, and this time before I'm gonna jump on it, I will wait for more reviews.
The effects can be subtle or do more, it depends really on how much collision you have. Get more squish in a bikini. collision when people hug instead of poke thru.
The better you are at combining dforce timeline with poses and clothing, the more you'll be able to do enact with realism. I'm doing a picure for example of when my cat jumps onto my stomach (he's a pretty chonk, a clumsy adorable chonk) and what it does to my stomach when he lands ;) That's doable with the timeline and squishy human. :)
Redacted
I'm very interested in this product.
I can't say the promos look all that impressive.
I also wonder if dForcing characters wouldn't get rid of any details. Perhaps not if one dials in HD morphs after the simulation?
Wishlisted for now, and I will definitely give it a try at one point.
Keeping my expectations low, but who knows, it could be game changer.
i'm doing a sim now with dforce hair, underwear, character, couch and cat.... and yes on my potato computer so it'll be a bit ...but the squishy human is easier to use to me than a couple other dforce boobs things i've tried without much luck (not putting them down... if anything its mostly stupid user error because I'm really BAD at learning new things) but squishy human you just load the squishy human version of g8 or g8.1 and apply your char...... skip in timeline and apply pose, make sure no body parts are going thru each other or thru furniture (colliding a bit is one thing; it cannot go thru it of course).
I only tried it once so far in a skimpy bikini and huge curves (because of course?) and it was brilliant...but i didn't render it because i rendering somethign ELSE at the time and ended up with too much open (zbrush, daz, daz, daz, daz, too much chrome, blacksmith, GIMP, and adobe) and probably more... (this is a bad habit of mine).
So. Anyway. Doing a sim now. Soon as the potato manages it, I'll share. :)
I'm glad it wasn't just me squinting at these. I know that my eyes are not as acute as they were, but I have to wonder if the promos couldn't be clearer - perhaps with some arrows for those of us who struggle. I like the sound of the product, but it's quite expensive when you are taking it on trust. Some early purchaser examples could really help this product.
Sadly, the most noticeable simulated character, was the one you should see it the least in,the Brute 8. His biceps are actually sagging :|
Well, let´s face the truth. Most people simply want to know if something like this can easily be done with this product.
what product is that from. I know I've seen it here
I quickly put that together by myself with a standard sphere and a smoothing modifier.
But you probably have seen https://www.daz3d.com/grasp-helper-for-genesis-8-and-genesis-81.
okay finally something to show...
Squishy human has 1 level of smoothing on but you can turn off if it smooths too much, I think its mostly for sharp collisions
For reference, my cat loves to drop like a rock onto my stomach and sends shock waves thru my gut and that was what I was trying to capture. :) I think it worked. Cellulite and all. ;) Is this hashtag no filter?
thanks..yes, that is the product ..you did a great job on yours. Free too
I just grabbed this and started playing around...
It seems as though the entire Figure has a dForce Modifier, probably with weight maps or different dForce Settings for different parts of the body, with the Head, Hands and Feet not affected by simulation.
My initial thought is that I doubt I'll really use it... Not because there isn't possibly potential, but because it seems like it'll require more work to use than I'm really interested in, and without a lot of testing it seems to make areas that we'd all probably be interested in looking somewhat "smooth", more bumpy and like cellulite, I guess?
It adds 4 new Surfaces to the Figure, visible in the Surfaces Tab as well as the Timeline, you'll see in my Screens...
You'll also notice that to load the Figure adds a Key Frame to the Timeline that is the Z Translation of the added "Pasties" Surface. I imagine it's meant to help collapse of the Pecs, though I tried deleting that Key Frame and didn't notice much difference.
Part of the reason that Animated Timeline Simulations are recommended is that to try Simming from Memorized Pose (or even an Animation that wasn't made specifically for this purpose) could send appendages through each other which will most likely cause an explosion.
Haven't noticed much difference between Better and Best Collision Mode, but Good causes an explosion, period. If there are any recommendable Simulation Settings, it seems to be up to us to figure out, because the product has no Simulation Setting Presets.
The "Animated" Poses are meant to show us how to go about it... 30 Sec Animations where the necessary movement of the figure or appendages happens between Frame 0-15.
These screens at least show what the product includes and a few very simple tests.
The first "test" shows the Pecs before and after just hitting Simulate with no Posing applied at all and what happens to the dForce Pecs.
The second "test" shows before and then 2 after shots of a similar animated sim where the hand moves into position between frames 0-15, one using Better and the other, Best.
I really haven't played around too much, so again I don't want to disuade anyone who likes to dive deep for the best results, just wanted to post sooner than later for any who aren't going to want to spend a lot of time getting to know how to use it and whether it really will provide the results they're after...
I stared hard at the promos but the difference was difficult to see and I have sort of a hate for dforce. I can't see paying for or using a product like this without real noticible advantages.
And I would want to use it most with humans touching eachother. So I would want to see more pics of that.
I want to love the idea, but I'm afraid that in order for soft body physics to work right, it's going to have to be baked into the figure/software, not a dforce kludge. I'm sure the PAs did excellent work, but I don't think the software is ready for this.
I expect this to be too hard to use (as usual for dforce outside its ideal usecase) with too few good outcomes. Love to be surprised, of course...
As far as minimal differences, look at the positions where a limb is bent significantly. That's where I saw the 'best' changes, clean compression of both upper and lower limb instead of the muscles cutting into each other. The fact you don't see much difference says a world about the work that Daz has done on making their figures look good when posed even without soft body.
As you can see in the sceen shot of the item above, its not just dforce on G8, there's 'meat' and 'bones' and such to simulate a body's internal push and gravity, I think. and it DOES collide with and interact with other meshes/people/items/animals such as i showed with the cat landing on the stomach. I didnt use any of the settings, just straight up loaded g8, skipped ahead to 45 in the time line, applied pose, Checked different points in the timeline to make sure no limbs going thru anything, and then did an animated simulation. that's all. Easy as using hair.
and, i'll add, it worked on my potato. which is slow as heck. ;)
https://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/565656/squishy-humans#latest
Ok so I started an 'official' thread so I didnt clutter this one up with a million images.
So yes - this product has limitations for a number of reasons. I go over all that in my disstertation .. I mean thread ;)
But the bare bones of it -
This is a Dforce Cloth engine based solution for softbody impacts. it was built to be 'one size fits most' and therefor does not work perfectly on every single shape.
Can you get giant mounds of jello flesh sqeezing out between finger - no. This is due to limitations of the mesh resolution mainly and not something I can change without significantly altering the figure.
Does this work with geografts - yes again depending where they weld onto the figure. Head and limb and most genital grafts will be fine. Grafts to the chest and buttocks are problematic and may require adjustment of the simulation areas.
There are NO impact zones on head, hands and feet. Poking her in the face will do nothing. I tried several times to keep some motion on the face but due to rigging , mesh structures and morphs, less than ideal things happened.
Some of the areas that could really use collission had to have it reduced specifically to keep from clashing with the built in JCM that attempt to simulate softbody collissions (back of knees, armpits) Some tests where I manually 'broke' the JCM and let the simualiton handle the impacts looked very nice but DAZ tends to object to products breaking things on the figure.
The other very annoying limitation is that you need to load the preset figure and then build your character on it. This is becasue there is now way as of yet to one-click add the dforce weight modifier and settings that are needed for this to work. I tried every possible approach, and the DAZ programmers also tried. So far no luck. If this change I will absolutely update this product.
So
If you mainly render clothed people you probably dont want to bother. You won't see much going on.
If you hate DForce, I don't think you will like this very much
If you use non dynamic clothing you will get better effects from dynamic clothing + squishy human, but non dynamic clothes still work fine
Figures impact each other very nicely, but for some reason DAZ didn't want to show the promos I made in the store so I am adding them here.
Feel free to ask me questions after you ahve read the other thread, but I am hanging drywall today, so I may not answer for a while.
Lyrra
The screencap above - no those arent surfaces. Surfaces are visible only in the Surface tab. Those are separate internal armature figures fit to the figures, and are set to not be visible at any time. They keep things from deflating, and act as important internal structures for weight and motion so I recomend leaving them alone.
Lyrra
And I'll be watching this and the official thread as well, for people who have questions about the poses, or about adding poses of their own. Squishy Humans are a little more intensive to use, and as Lyrra states, not for everyone. There is a learning curve when using dForce, and even more so when using the Squishy Humans. But that being said, if I can figure out how to use them, anyone can use them. I created the poses to help people who were unfamiliar using dForce or had only used it for simple things so that they'd have success using the Squishy Humans. Because, and I'll be honest, I think Squishy Humans is actually pretty brilliant, given the tools we currently have in DS. It's not like the other soft body sets in the store (I know because I've tried using them long before Lyrra came up with the Squishies.) This is miles above what those sets do. (And I'm not just saying that to generate sales, either. It's my honest opinion as a customer.)
So let me know if you have questions about the poses. Or about applying your own (because there are steps into getting a pose to simulate correctly that are slightly different than just using a dForce outfit.)
Can you give a few general tips? I'm just about to play around with it to test it out and would love to know if just the key things to start with.
Hi evacyn!
General tips. Keep an open mind because each computer simulates dForce differently. But that being said, as long as you don't simulate from the saved position and you use the custom timeline option you'll have the best result. I've included a PDF tutorial on how to use the Animated Timeline Poses but you can adapt any pose you want to be an ATP. I made the ATPs 30 frames long with the final pose set at frame 15 because it takes about 15 frames for the Squishy Human bodies to settle after collision. If you're using additional dForce clothing or props, you might want to extend the timeline to 45 frames or longer, as dForce clothing takes longer to simulate out (I have found). But keep in mind, you don't have to go all the way to the end of the timeline before you render. You can stop it at any frame (or go back after the simulation is completed) to find what is going to work for your render.
I give better steps in the commercial thread for Squishy Humans, so please check that out. And if you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to reach out!
Those are, I think, dForce Addons - new fitted figures, as Lyrra says, which help to stiffen the dynamic sections.
Count me in as another who found the promotional images less than enticing. What I mainly see is that there often appears to be a loss in definition on the figure after simulation... this is particularly glaring on the back view shot on the second row of the female product, where the buttocks droop and the spine indention partially disappears. Toss in the qualifier that it doesn't work on active geografts and I'll have to wait and see if any users figure out how to get better images than the promo shots before committing.
As someone who has had soft-body physics near the top of the wishlist for years, I have a couple of concerns about the release of this product.
1. I don't believe dForce is good enough. It is painfully slow and way too prone to explosions. Also, it is meant for draping cloth, not making squishy "flesh". I'll be happy to be proved wrong though.
2. DAZ have ignored requests for physics in DAZ Studio and I suspect they will now claim that there is a product in the store to do just that. I would rather see a dedicated physics engine included. Before posting this I looked on YouTube and there are plenty of videos about Blender soft body physics. I have never tried it in Blender but it looks capable and quite simple to use.
...on the thought of exploding characters, the following quote from ST:TMP seems appropriate
"What we got back didn't live long, fortunately.
Hi @Cybersox! I know that Lyrra was caught between a rock and a hard place when she was putting together the promotional images for both the Squishy Female and Male sets. Given the fact that the Squishies are a unique product that wouldn't be entirely understood at first, it was kind of hard to find the best way of showing the product off. Glitzy artistic renders might have jazzed up the look, but then wouldn't have necessarily done a good job of visually explaining what it is that the product does. She opted for the more minimalist scientific illustration approach in the hope that it would be more visually informative rather than visually stunning. Does that make sense? In my pose set, I went with the more visually nice to look at approach, but then you can't tell exactly that there's "squishiness" going on in them either. (But I assure you, they're squishy.) If I get a free moment, I'll post some of renders that hopefully will be more descriptive.
Those are legitimate concerns. Allow me to attempt to address them.
1. What makes the Squishy Humans different is that it comes with pre-loaded armatures that prevent the product from draping like a limp rag. It maintains the shape of the body, while also simulating internal pressures like muscle and bone as well as give a realisic movement like gravity. The fact that it's dForce is due to the fact that it's the only tool in DS at the moment that comes closest to soft body collision. It was designed to work with what is already in DazStudio, to hopefully make it easier for customers to use straight off the bat without any steep learning curves. And as things progress, which I have no doubt they are progressing, there may be a time when DS has better means with which we can use to make fleshy bodies behave more like fleshy bodies. For what this product is, I think it's a pretty smart approach to solving this dilemma. Is it a perfect solution? No. But it's a step closer than we were before.
2. I don't think Daz is ignoring the requests for physics in DS. It boils down to manpower and finances. It would be nice if Daz could afford to hire a full time team to work on getting physics inside of DS (heck, I'd be happy if they could just fix the few bugs I've found with posing), but the unfortunate truth is that the development team is small and they're currently working on debugging and developing other enhancements, as well as working on upgrading the website and other internal projects that I cannot discuss (simply because I don't know every venture that Daz is pursuing, I just know that they're busy and working with a limited number of staff.) And I seriously doubt that Daz will point to the Squishy Humans and say that they're the be all an end off of physics in DS. If that were the case, then the Squishy Humans would be a Daz O product. Lyrra didn't develop this project at the request of Daz. She built it because she saw a need for it and found a clever way to get there. And I'm certain that now that she's forged a path forward, some other PA will look at it and think, "hmm, I can take this one step further." Eventually we'll get there, but it's a "slower than we'd like" process.
Those are legitimate concerns. Allow me to attempt to address them.
1. What makes the Squishy Humans different is that it comes with pre-loaded armatures that prevent the product from draping like a limp rag. It maintains the shape of the body, while also simulating internal pressures like muscle and bone as well as give a realisic movement like gravity. The fact that it's dForce is due to the fact that it's the only tool in DS at the moment that comes closest to soft body collision. It was designed to work with what is already in DazStudio, to hopefully make it easier for customers to use straight off the bat without any steep learning curves. And as things progress, which I have no doubt they are progressing, there may be a time when DS has better means with which we can use to make fleshy bodies behave more like fleshy bodies. For what this product is, I think it's a pretty smart approach to solving this dilemma. Is it a perfect solution? No. But it's a step closer than we were before.
2. I don't think Daz is ignoring the requests for physics in DS. It boils down to manpower and finances. It would be nice if Daz could afford to hire a full time team to work on getting physics inside of DS (heck, I'd be happy if they could just fix the few bugs I've found with posing), but the unfortunate truth is that the development team is small and they're currently working on debugging and developing other enhancements, as well as working on upgrading the website and other internal projects that I cannot discuss (simply because I don't know every venture that Daz is pursuing, I just know that they're busy and working with a limited number of staff.) And I seriously doubt that Daz will point to the Squishy Humans and say that they're the be all an end off of physics in DS. If that were the case, then the Squishy Humans would be a Daz O product. Lyrra didn't develop this project at the request of Daz. She built it because she saw a need for it and found a clever way to get there. And I'm certain that now that she's forged a path forward, some other PA will look at it and think, "hmm, I can take this one step further." Eventually we'll get there, but it's a "slower than we'd like" process.