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further to the CPU debate - tech question

protovuprotovu Posts: 194
edited December 1969 in Carrara Discussion

Hi Everyone,

I am wondering if Carrara can take advantage of multiple cores via a dual CPU Xeon workstation on a heavy, layered transparency
render.

Or, would this workstation idea only be advantageous to the extent that one could run a few instances of Carrara for multiple renders,
and a video editor, etc. simultaneously?

Basically, I want, and am willing to pay for faster renders, but do not know if Carrara is optimized to exploit resources of a Xeon system.

I could just go with another i7 machine, but is that going to be just a marginal pop compared to my current i7 (-2600 @3.4 Ghz, 16 GB ram)?

I am not willing to go AMD at this point. Additionally, I am committed to CPU rendering.

Thanks for weighing in,
Rick

«1

Comments

  • 3drendero3drendero Posts: 2,024
    edited June 2015

    Like all rendering apps, the more cores, the faster rendering since the image is split up in chunks that can be fed to more CPUs.

    But I am note sure if DAZ added a software limit of 20 cores for Carrara 8.5 Pro, in order to sell the GRID plugin for 100 core support:
    http://www.daz3d.com/grid-for-carrara

    Maybe someone with a 20+ core machine can inform us?

    BTW, your current rig can be overclocked to 4,7GHz, giving you an "extra core", if you have a cooler that is not stock Intel.
    If you do overclock, remember that the power is 4x4,7=19GHz, while an 8-core Xeon at 3GHz get you 8x3=24GHz, so you need a high end workstation to beat an overclocked "gaming rig" with a big margin.

    I do run several Carrara instances, one is rendering while I am working on the other.

    EDIT. If you are not in a rush, Intel has new Skylake Xeon parts planned for next year. Also AMD will bring out new CPU's that might be good for rendering next year.

    Post edited by 3drendero on
  • evilproducerevilproducer Posts: 9,050
    edited December 1969

    There may be an upper limit on what Carrara can do for a computer with multiple cores/processors, but I don't recall what it is. How many are you talking about?

  • protovuprotovu Posts: 194
    edited June 2015

    Good info., thanks, 3drendero.

    A little tentative on overclocking, as I have been told that it shortens life. Maybe that does not matter now that I am looking at a new machine.

    In what ways is Grid better than using render nodes for a render farm? Anyone done a comparison? The text on the Grid webpage seems to indicate
    that one would benefit using Grid with only one computer...

    Is there a link that you recommend on how to overclock?...and un-overclock if the lights dim?

    thanks,
    R

    Hi Evil,
    Not sure yet on your question regarding how many cores at this time.

    Post edited by protovu on
  • argus1000argus1000 Posts: 701
    edited June 2015

    I have a double-socket motherboard with two Xeon 6 cores hyper-threading CPUs, for a total of 24 logical cores or nodes. As far as rendering goes, I can assure you that Carrara uses them all.

    Post edited by argus1000 on
  • 3drendero3drendero Posts: 2,024
    edited December 1969

    If you are a rookie at overclocking, try the mainboard manual and site for a utility that does the work for you, with less risk but lower overclock.
    This is a good starting guide:
    http://www.techreaction.net/2011/01/04/3-step-overclocking-guide-–-sandy-bridge-v0-1beta/


    Note that GRID is not better or worse, if I understand correctly, it only unlocks a "software lock" that limits the amount of cores that can be used.
    Though we may need to send a support ticket to get an answer of how many cores one can run per computer with and without GRID...

  • WendyLuvsCatzWendyLuvsCatz Posts: 38,200
    edited December 1969

    I always thought Grid was basically a renderfarm license for multiple instances of the rendernode.
    Not that I know much about such things but assumed it overode the limit of software to be installed only to one household for the rendernode.

  • evilproducerevilproducer Posts: 9,050
    edited December 1969

    wendy♥catz said:
    I always thought Grid was basically a renderfarm license for multiple instances of the rendernode.
    Not that I know much about such things but assumed it overode the limit of software to be installed only to one household for the rendernode.

    I think you're partially right. If I remember it correctly, it does allow more machines to be used, but I think Carrara also has a limitation on the number of cores/processors, which also carries over to nodes. Grid may unlock that limit.

    So, for example, Argus said he has 24 cores and all are utilized, but what if that's the limit? Would Carrara be able to recognize another machine with 24 cores? That I'm not sure of. Plus, the specs on Grid says it allows you to use up to 100 processors. Is that total divided up between the host machine and the nodes? Or is it 100 networked cores?

  • stringtheory9stringtheory9 Posts: 411
    edited December 1969

    protovu said:
    Hi Everyone,

    I am wondering if Carrara can take advantage of multiple cores via a dual CPU Xeon workstation on a heavy, layered transparency
    render.

    Or, would this workstation idea only be advantageous to the extent that one could run a few instances of Carrara for multiple renders,
    and a video editor, etc. simultaneously?

    Basically, I want, and am willing to pay for faster renders, but do not know if Carrara is optimized to exploit resources of a Xeon system.

    I could just go with another i7 machine, but is that going to be just a marginal pop compared to my current i7 (-2600 @3.4 Ghz, 16 GB ram)?

    I am not willing to go AMD at this point. Additionally, I am committed to CPU rendering.

    Thanks for weighing in,
    Rick

    protovu, If there is a limit on cores in a single box it's pretty high.

    screencapture.png
    1016 x 700 - 562K
  • protovuprotovu Posts: 194
    edited December 1969

    Hi Stringtheory9,

    Now that is an impressive image. Thank you for posting it. Technically, perhaps you can clarify what I am seeing?

    First of all, is this a Grid render?

    Is there some advantage to using Grid when on a single machine? ( the Grid description page seems to allude to this).

    If anyone knows: The Grid page is really lacking in information. I would really like to know more. Does each machine require an instance of Grid, plugins, etc.?

    If using, say, 3 machines, is there any advantage over Carrara render nodes?

    Thanks,
    R

  • chris-2756895chris-2756895 Posts: 11
    edited June 2015

    Proto
    I think it's just a regular render on a computer with a large number of processing threads. I see the same kind of thing on mine, and I've just been using the out-of-the-box render settings.
    (Mine is a Z820 with dual Xeons, 24 threads each CPU)

    Post edited by chris-2756895 on
  • stringtheory9stringtheory9 Posts: 411
    edited December 1969

    protovu said:
    Hi Stringtheory9,

    Now that is an impressive image. Thank you for posting it. Technically, perhaps you can clarify what I am seeing?

    First of all, is this a Grid render?

    Is there some advantage to using Grid when on a single machine? ( the Grid description page seems to allude to this).

    If anyone knows: The Grid page is really lacking in information. I would really like to know more. Does each machine require an instance of Grid, plugins, etc.?

    If using, say, 3 machines, is there any advantage over Carrara render nodes?

    Thanks,
    R


    It's one machine running two of these bad boys. I plan to get Grid as I get closer to rendering my project but for now I can't give you much insight on it.

  • argus1000argus1000 Posts: 701
    edited June 2015

    stringtheory9 said:
    It's one machine running two of these bad boys. I plan to get Grid as I get closer to rendering my project but for now I can't give you much insight on it.

    Hi stringtheory9
    So you're running two VERY expensive 18-cores Xeons, with hyper-threading that means that you have 72 logical cores or nodes. Am I right? So, without the Grid, as I can judge from your pic, you are limited to 34 cores with one machine?
    Post edited by argus1000 on
  • DAZ_SpookyDAZ_Spooky Posts: 3,100
    edited December 1969

    If there is a limit on render threads on the main computer it is 50. I don't believe there is one, but some architecture changed when the number of threads was increased for network rendering, so it could have changed making my belief wrong. :)

    Unfortunately I have no way to test that limit. LOL, though testing the limits on network rendering is always a fun test and I tie up lots of computers when I do it.

  • DAZ_SpookyDAZ_Spooky Posts: 3,100
    edited December 1969

    argus1000 said:
    stringtheory9 said:
    It's one machine running two of these bad boys. I plan to get Grid as I get closer to rendering my project but for now I can't give you much insight on it.

    Hi stringtheory9
    So you're running two VERY expensive 18-cores Xeons, with hyper-threading that means that you have 72 logical cores or nodes. Am I right? So, without the Grid, as I can judge from your pic, you are limited to 34 cores with one machine?There are at least 36 threads running in that render. Remember the numbers are number of each thread and the only time they are in order is when they first hit the screen.
  • DAZ_SpookyDAZ_Spooky Posts: 3,100
    edited December 1969

    protovu said:
    Hi Stringtheory9,

    Now that is an impressive image. Thank you for posting it. Technically, perhaps you can clarify what I am seeing?

    First of all, is this a Grid render?

    Is there some advantage to using Grid when on a single machine? ( the Grid description page seems to allude to this).

    If anyone knows: The Grid page is really lacking in information. I would really like to know more. Does each machine require an instance of Grid, plugins, etc.?

    If using, say, 3 machines, is there any advantage over Carrara render nodes?

    Thanks,
    R

    The Grid and included render nodes are the same. The difference is the number of threads allowed.

    Each machine on the network requires a copy of Render node installed, a copy of the data folder (Which contains things like leaves) and most plug-ins are also required to be installed. (Note Architools has a specific render node version.)

    During a network render threads contributed by computers on the network are represented by gray boxes with an "N" in them.

    Also note that in an animation, each networked computer is working on a different frame of the animation.

  • protovuprotovu Posts: 194
    edited December 1969

    Thank you Xeon-ators Chris and String for sharing your rigs.

    So here is a question with an obvious answer, but I am asking anyway:

    Having gone the Xeon dual CPU route, and, I assume, having used i7 boxes prior,
    would the consensus be that if you had to have just one machine, a Xeon workstation would be the way to go?

    See, I want to upgrade, but I want to see a dramatic render performance increase. A nice Xeon set up will, in your
    opinion, blow away a fat i7 machine?

    Also, you are CPU render enthusiasts? Personally, I just haven't found the patience for Octane or Lux, so it
    is going to be strictly CPU for me.


    Thank you for your advisement,
    R

    Do you have RAM preferences for the Xeon boxes.

  • chris-2756895chris-2756895 Posts: 11
    edited June 2015

    Proto, hi
    I've built boxes and boxes since the original 8086 and up. Yes, I came off i7s.
    I recently posted a 4k feature film shot in 6k and had to upgrade everything, thus ended up with my double Xeon machines, which read/wrote and processed Red 6k and 4k footage natively (no downres/offline) for the simplest possible workflow. Worked like a charm, after I'd bloodied a few toes getting the pipeline sorted.

    And I dunno if it's snobbery or not, but yes, I'm slowly converting the rest of my machines to Xeon multis. And yes, I'm not using my i7s as much as I used to. And yes, if I had only the one, the Xeon would be my preference. However, the little Luxrender preview window instead of having to Ctrl-5 or otherwise get to the Render window to tweak? That made the difference for me to using Carrara instead of C4D or Maya. So I'd keep that part at least : )

    The HP Z840s I'm using have 8 slots of RAM per CPU, so 96GB RAM max per CPU. Two CPU slots. For memory I'm using DDR4 R-DIMMs (Registered) taken off old servers from an online server supply store, so the prices are pretty good. Can't fault the performance either.

    Post edited by chris-2756895 on
  • 3drendero3drendero Posts: 2,024
    edited June 2015

    Well, if you spend that money on CPU's, make sure that you have a PSU and available PCI ports for 3-4 GPU's.
    Because you can GPU render with both CPU+GPU together for a dramatic boost.
    Luxus and Octane will improve over time with better auto-conversion if that has you worried.

    EDIT
    As a benchmark for your new Xeon system, I would use a Core i7 5820k system overclocked to 4,6GHz, giving you 6*4,6GHz=27,6GHz
    About 1250$ with a boring GPU and 2700 with fat dual GPU (GTX980Ti 6GB SLI)
    https://www.cyberpowerpc.com/system/CyberPower_X99_Configurator

    About overclocking the latest Haswells:
    http://www.hardocp.com/article/2014/09/25/core_i75960x_5930k_5820k_overclocking_performance/2#.VX8RRPmqpBc

    Post edited by 3drendero on
  • chris-2756895chris-2756895 Posts: 11
    edited December 1969

    Agreed. I have the 1050W PSUs going (which is HP's biggest, I believe) and have been running 2 "proper" GPUs and one half sized one (due to PSU limitations) on each thus far.

  • protovuprotovu Posts: 194
    edited December 1969

    Wow. Terrific information, Gentlemen.

    Based on this, I am going to have my local shop (Central Computer) put together a bid, which I can share. Exciting prospect, this is, which will definitely temper the headache of dialing in a new machine.

    Regarding: " make sure that you have a PSU and available PCI ports for 3-4 GPU’s. Because you can GPU render with both CPU+GPU together for a dramatic boost."...are you saying that the GPUs of the video card can be utilized for CPU rendering, as distinct from strict CPU or GPU rendering?

    Thanks,
    R

  • stringtheory9stringtheory9 Posts: 411
    edited June 2015

    argus1000 said:
    stringtheory9 said:
    It's one machine running two of these bad boys. I plan to get Grid as I get closer to rendering my project but for now I can't give you much insight on it.

    Hi stringtheory9
    So you're running two VERY expensive 18-cores Xeons, with hyper-threading that means that you have 72 logical cores or nodes. Am I right? So, without the Grid, as I can judge from your pic, you are limited to 34 cores with one machine?

    Hi argus1000,

    I only had the box in front of me for a weekend before it went off to be reconfigured as a Linux DB server :down:. My goal was to try estimate rending time for my project with that kind of hardware. Unfortunately hyper-threading was off and I didn't want to mess with the bios. As DAZ_Spooky noted there were 36 rendering tiles. Since I probably won't be rendering full size for at least a year my hope is that that kind of hardware will be affordable to me by then.

    Post edited by stringtheory9 on
  • chris-2756895chris-2756895 Posts: 11
    edited December 1969

    Good information!

    What I did was get a bare-bones refurbished setup from HP (1050W PSU, no CPU, no RAM) and then build it myself - it's actually very nice inside, and if anything an easier build than a regular i7 AT form computer. Then I just found used CPUs and server RAM and installed. I took my GeForce GPUs off of existing computers where I had them SLI'd together in an attempt to get to 4k raw native processing. Gave up on all of that and they now sit happily in my Zs.

    Word of caution: if you are going to go my route with the HP barebones kits, don't say I didn't tell you here first:...

    You know the expansion slots in the computer shell? Not the slots where the cards plug into the motherboard, but the physical slots cut into the back of the shell where the cards poke out into the open? - well the sides/edges of these slots have been punched out and are WAY MORE THAN RAZOR SHARP. I have a hunk of my finger missing finding that out. Happened in a flash, mainly because I didn't believe that anybody would leave those edges unfinished like that.

    This is certainly not a consumer item...

  • 3drendero3drendero Posts: 2,024
    edited December 1969

    protovu said:
    Wow. Terrific information, Gentlemen.

    Based on this, I am going to have my local shop (Central Computer) put together a bid, which I can share. Exciting prospect, this is, which will definitely temper the headache of dialing in a new machine.

    Regarding: " make sure that you have a PSU and available PCI ports for 3-4 GPU’s. Because you can GPU render with both CPU+GPU together for a dramatic boost."...are you saying that the GPUs of the video card can be utilized for CPU rendering, as distinct from strict CPU or GPU rendering?

    Thanks,
    R

    I am saying that some rendering methods of Luxus can run on both CPU+GPU for a maximum boost.
    Octane is rumored to be updated from CUDA (NVIDIA only) to OpenCL which works on both GPU and CPU, but nothing confirmed yet.
    Check the third image here, where you can add the CPU to the GPU's for OpenCL/Path method:
    http://carraracafe.com/plugins/luxuscore-for-carrara-plugin-unofficial-manual-2015-02-15/

    Try the beta, it is free: http://carraracafe.com/plugins/luxuscore-for-carrara-plugin-unofficial-manual-2015-02-15/
    Seems to work better with AMD cards so far.

  • protovuprotovu Posts: 194
    edited December 1969

    I see. So I should look to set up the new machine to provide this option. Good advise, thank you.

  • WendyLuvsCatzWendyLuvsCatz Posts: 38,200
    edited December 1969

    And of course DAZ studio iray uses CPU as well as GPU if you go that route, its free. . . .

    Expensive as Octane is, it was still cheaper than all this high end hardware being discussed as all I needed was reasonable nVidia graphics, just saying.

    I would love the beautiful multithreaded cored monsters shown as I love Carrara native shaders/proceedurals and proceedural based particles with metaballs etc I miss using Octane :long: but the GPU based render option was by far the cheaper one for me with my existing computer.

  • protovuprotovu Posts: 194
    edited December 1969

    Hi Wendy,
    On Octane, at least with the demo, I was not happy with the speed. And the fact that Ocatane materials weren't available to experiment with, is discomforting. And then there is the plugin issue.

    At any rate, perhaps my new Xeon friends, Chris and String, can give me an opinion on the following 2 configs. Bear in mind, I am not one who would make his own machine.

    2 CPUINTX2633R Intel Xeon Eight-Core E5-2630 V3 2.4Ghz Haswell-EP 679.95 Each Y 1,359.90
    1 MOTSUPX10D3R SuperMicro MBD-X10DAI-O Intel C612 Dual LGA 2011 379.95 Each Y 379.95
    4 MEMDDR48G01R D736R DDR4-2133 8GB ECC/Registered Server Memory 109.00 Each Y 436.00
    2 CASSUPSNK50R Supermicro SNK-P0050AP4 Heatsink for LGA2011 45.95 Each Y 91.90
    1 POWCOR1000RR Corsair CP-9020062-NA 1000 Watt RM Series Fully Mo 169.95 Each Y 169.95
    1 VGAEVGAGT92R EVGA 04G-P4-3962-KR Geforce GTX 960 SC 4GB GDDR5 235.95 Each Y 235.95
    1 DRISAM512G7R Samsung 512GB 2.5" 850 Pro Series SATA3 SSD Read u 279.95 Each Y 279.95
    1 DRIWD-20032S Western Digital WD2003FZEX 2TB SATA3 7200RPM 64MB 134.95 Each Y 134.95
    1 CDDLITIHAS2D LiteOn IHAS124-14 24X SATA DVD+/-RW DL Drive Black 22.95 Each Y 22.95
    1 ZMS-WIN7OMRC Microsoft FQC-08289 Windows 7 Pro 64-bit SP1 1pk D 139.95 Each Y 139.95
    1 CASCORC760GR Corsair CC-9011073-WW Graphite Series 760T Black S 175.95 Each Y 175.95
    1 ZZCUSTOM System Assembly & Testing. 80.00 Each Y 80.00
    1 ZZPOLICY2 Labor not refundable, 15% restocking within 14 day 0.00 Each Y 0.00
    1 ZZPOLICY4 All software packaging and materials included with 0.00 Each Y 0.00
    1 ZZW102R 1 Yr Express Replacement Program for Sys>$1000 (3% 103.00 Each N 103.00

    subtotal: 3,610.40
    Tax: 324.43
    Total: 3,934.83

    2 CPUINTX2621R Intel Xeon Six-Core E5-2620 V3 2.4GHz Haswell-EP 429.95 Each Y 859.90
    1 MOTSUPX10D3R SuperMicro MBD-X10DAI-O Intel C612 Dual LGA 2011 379.95 Each Y 379.95
    4 MEMDDR48G01R D736R DDR4-2133 8GB ECC/Registered Server Memory 109.00 Each Y 436.00
    2 CASSUPSNK50R Supermicro SNK-P0050AP4 Heatsink for LGA2011 45.95 Each Y 91.90
    1 POWCOR1000RR Corsair CP-9020062-NA 1000 Watt RM Series Fully Mo 169.95 Each Y 169.95
    1 VGAEVGAGT92R EVGA 04G-P4-3962-KR Geforce GTX 960 SC 4GB GDDR5 235.95 Each Y 235.95
    1 DRISAM512G7R Samsung 512GB 2.5" 850 Pro Series SATA3 SSD Read u 279.95 Each Y 279.95
    1 DRIWD-20032S Western Digital WD2003FZEX 2TB SATA3 7200RPM 64MB 134.95 Each Y 134.95
    1 CDDLITIHAS2D LiteOn IHAS124-14 24X SATA DVD+/-RW DL Drive Black 22.95 Each Y 22.95
    1 ZMS-WIN7OMRC Microsoft FQC-08289 Windows 7 Pro 64-bit SP1 1pk D 139.95 Each Y 139.95
    1 CASCORC760GR Corsair CC-9011073-WW Graphite Series 760T Black S 175.95 Each Y 175.95
    1 ZZCUSTOM System Assembly & Testing. 80.00 Each Y 80.00
    1 ZZPOLICY2 Labor not refundable, 15% restocking within 14 day 0.00 Each Y 0.00
    1 ZZPOLICY4 All software packaging and materials included with 0.00 Each Y 0.00
    1 ZZW102R 1 Yr Express Replacement Program for Sys>$1000 (3% 88.00 Each N 88.00
    User: DANV Total line items: 15 Sale subtotal: 3,095.40
    Tax: 278.18
    Total: 3,373.58

    Seem reasonable? Anything not needed, recommended, or missing?

    Thank you,
    Rick

  • 3drendero3drendero Posts: 2,024
    edited June 2015

    Quick calculation:

    Reference desktop Core 17 5820k overclocked:
    6x4,6GHz=27,6GHz
    For 1400$ (+1000W PSU for more graphics cards, water cooling...)

    System 1:
    2x8x2,4=38,4GHz
    For 4000$

    System 2:
    2x6x2,4=28,8GHz
    For 3400$

    Does require skills to overclock or paying a store to do that for you, but I would never pay extra for Xeons when I can overclock a Core i7 to the same level as system 2 or consider to pay 3x more for 30% more performance.

    Will update with Cinebench numbers for a more correct comparison...

    EDIT Try Luxmark 3.0 to see what is going on when you render with CPU only, GPU only and CPU+GPU, to understand what is possible and how to get maximum boost for <4000$. <a href="http://www.luxrender.net/wiki/LuxMark">http://www.luxrender.net/wiki/LuxMark

    Post edited by 3drendero on
  • protovuprotovu Posts: 194
    edited December 1969

    Hi 3Drendero, and thank you. Please excuse my technical noobness on the following:

    So I am, at least for now, trying to get the most out of CPU rendering. I know this will change, but I like the speed, and plugin integration with Carrara CPU rendering.

    With that in mind, is The 5820 system you support here, more geared towards GPU rendering?

    This system would total $2400 (with the cooling and PCUs), but does that include a hefty dose of DDR4 and as many video cards as necessary to enable fast GPU rendering?

    If one were to go this overclock route, doesn't it shorten the life of the machine generally, or at least the CPU?
    Does overclocking void the warranty of the CPU? How would I know if I was going to have a melt down....say in the middle of a project before a deadline?

    Finally, with CPU rendering, aren't cores (quantity of ) more important than Ghz?

    On the benchmark tests, to they reflect apples to apples? I would need to have the computer systems purchased in order to do the tests, yes?

    thank you for your help,
    Rick

  • 3drendero3drendero Posts: 2,024
    edited December 1969

    Here is a site that has most CPUs and include Cinebench 11.5 multicore, which is similar to Carrara. Missing overclocked results though.

    http://www.cpu-monkey.com/en/compare_cpu-intel_xeon_e5_2620_v3-488-vs-intel_core_i7_5820k-440

    All modern CPUs slow down when they overheat, will not burn up. But a quality mainboard and PSU is needed. The store above even has extra overclock warranty...

    Just proposing a cheaper option, but it requires a little skills. You can purchase GPUs later, because they do get much faster every year, unlike CPUs that have stalled...

  • 3drendero3drendero Posts: 2,024
    edited June 2015

    Cinebench R15 benchmarks from Google:

    6-core
    5820k@4,65GHz: 1335
    5820k@4,6GHz: 1327
    5820k@4,5GHz: 1294
    5820k@4,3GHz 1259

    8-core
    5960x@4,4GHz 1719
    5960x@4,45GHz 1747
    5960x@4,3GHz 1679

    8-core Xeon
    E5-2630 V3 1190
    2x E5-2630 V3: 2038
    2x E5-2630 V3: 2058

    6-core Xeon
    E5-2620 V3: 894
    E5-2620 V3: 804

    Now you can do a proper bang-for-buck comparison...

    /EDIT Grab Cinebench R15 from here and compare with your current rig:
    http://www.maxon.net/products/cinebench/overview.html

    Post edited by 3drendero on
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