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Issue with Leonard / Torment Veins

jukingeojukingeo Posts: 711
edited August 2022 in The Commons

Hello All, I have created the horned fellow below using the Leonard / Torment figure base. What I had noticed is that when I applied the veins to the body, they don't seem to render right.  The veins are supposed to bulge out which is shown in the picture of Leonard in the Daz Store here:

Now when I have done my render of my character, not all of the veins look like they are protruding, in fact some look like they are doing the reverse, but most seem to be very flat looking, nothing like the render above:

As you see, the face is nothing like the render from the Daz Store, all the face veins seem either flat or "inverted".   Now the weird thing is that certain areas, such as the right forearm, look fine. The left wrist and shoulder look OK, but for the most part, the entire torso area, face and most of the left arm doesn't look right.   I am wondering if there might be something off with my settings that I am not getting the results as pictured.  And yes, I have the SubD turned up to 4 when I made that render, so that isn't it.

Thank You,

Geo

 

 

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Post edited by jukingeo on

Comments

  • felisfelis Posts: 4,606

    Assuming they are sculped with high resolution. What subD level are you using?

  • MoogooMoogoo Posts: 136

    it is your lighting, try more angled lights and shadows to bring the details out

  • marblemarble Posts: 7,500

    jukingeo said:

    Hello All, I have created the horned fellow below using the Leonard / Torment figure base. What I had noticed is that when I applied the veins to the body, they don't seem to render right.  The veins are supposed to bulge out which is shown in the picture of Leonard in the Daz Store here:

     

    Now when I have done my render of my character, not all of the veins look like they are protruding, in fact some look like they are doing the reverse, but most seem to be very flat looking, nothing like the render above:

     

    As you see, the face is nothing like the render from the Daz Store, all the face veins seem either flat or "inverted".   Now the weird thing is that certain areas, such as the right forearm, look fine. The left wrist and shoulder look OK, but for the most part, the entire torso area, face and most of the left arm doesn't look right.   I am wondering if there might be something off with my settings that I am not getting the results as pictured.  And yes, I have the SubD turned up to 4 when I made that render, so that isn't it.

    Thank You,

    Geo

     

     

    I've also noticed that odd inversion effect with veins, etc. I'm not sure whether it is Displacement or Normal Maps but they look like they are indented in the skin rather than raised. Nor so sure about the lighting explanation either because I've tried different camera angles and lights and HDRi and they still look inverted. Most of the time it is not enough of an effect to notice but occasionally I spot it and then can't stop having my attention drawn to it. I even start suspecting it is an optical illusion and that my brain is doing the inverting but I don't really think that is the case.

    I have to say that I am pretty sure that those I have trouble with are not HD but are Displacement and/or Normal maps.

  • GordigGordig Posts: 10,171
    edited August 2022

    Looking at Leonard now, subD isn't the issue, because the veins are entirely texture-based, and there are no displacement maps, just bump and normal. 

    edit: as a side note, Leonard's demon form has horizontal slit pupils, which is a very odd choice because horizontal pupils are typical of prey animals like cows and goats, while predators tend to have vertical pupils.

    Post edited by Gordig on
  • marblemarble Posts: 7,500

    Gordig said:

    Looking at Leonard now, subD isn't the issue, because the veins are entirely texture-based, and there are no displacement maps, just bump and normal. 

    edit: as a side note, Leonard's demon form has horizontal slit pupils, which is a very odd choice because horizontal pupils are typical of prey animals like cows and goats, while predators tend to have vertical pupils.

     

    In occult lore the goat is associated with devils and demons.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-33682878

  • GordigGordig Posts: 10,171

    Oh, right. I didn't make that connection. If that's the intention, though, why not go for full goat pupils?

  • jukingeojukingeo Posts: 711
    edited September 2022

    Hello All,

    Sorry for the late response as I come back to these forums only once a week or so, but to answer some of the questions.

    1) SubD is at 4.  I could go to 5, but then rendering takes a VERY long time.

    2) Lighting:  I have noticed that lighting DOES have an effect, but I can never get the veins to look like as on the picture for the product sales.  It is weird because then the raised look changes.  In other words, if I change the lighting the opposite side, then the veins that look inverted come out and look right, but the ones that looked right with the opposite angle now appeared inverted.   So I do agree that this has to do with the texture, but is there a way to fix it, because the main photo shows nearly all of the veins to look right.

    3) Bump maps:   Would changing these fix the value?  Doesn't the bump maps raise the detail surfaces of the skin?  @Gordig,  Could one use the bump and normal maps for displacement?  Would that work.

    4) Changing Shadows:  @Moogoo.  How do you change shadows?

    With the character "Rachelle" which is a vampiress that is created by Mousso, her veins appear normal, but yeah, you do have to angle the light right.  (See Attached)

    The vein details are awesome, particularly on the second one.  They all look right too.  Not only on her chest, but the side of her face too.   Here with this figure, the angle of the lighting does matter as the effect isn't as great with full forward lighting.  The more to the side you go, the better, but it never has that concave look.  The veins all protrude.  (And yes, I DID model the vampiress after Madonna).

    Summary:  Okay, so now I know the problem isn't me, so how can I fix the issue with Leonard?

    Thanks,

    Geo

     

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    Post edited by jukingeo on
  • GordigGordig Posts: 10,171

    jukingeo said:

    3) Bump maps:   Would changing these fix the value?  Doesn't the bump maps raise the detail surfaces of the skin?  @Gordig,  Could one use the bump and normal maps for displacement?  Would that work.

    Bump maps don't change the geometry, they only create the appearance of height, whereas displacement does affect the actual geometry. I tried using bump maps for displacement and didn't get very good results, but I also didn't put much work into it. Normal maps wouldn't work in Iray, but some other engines, like Cycles, could use them for displacement.

  • HavosHavos Posts: 5,392

    Gordig said:

    jukingeo said:

    3) Bump maps:   Would changing these fix the value?  Doesn't the bump maps raise the detail surfaces of the skin?  @Gordig,  Could one use the bump and normal maps for displacement?  Would that work.

    Bump maps don't change the geometry, they only create the appearance of height, whereas displacement does affect the actual geometry. I tried using bump maps for displacement and didn't get very good results, but I also didn't put much work into it. Normal maps wouldn't work in Iray, but some other engines, like Cycles, could use them for displacement.

    Normal maps do work in Iray, where did you read they do not? Like bump maps, they only give the illusion of movement, rather than actually moving the mesh. This way you don't need to knock up SubD to use normals. In my experience normals generally work a lot better than bumps, particularly if you need to get quite a deep cut, for example with bricks or kitchen tiles and the like.

  • GordigGordig Posts: 10,171
    edited September 2022

    Havos said:

    Gordig said:

    jukingeo said:

    3) Bump maps:   Would changing these fix the value?  Doesn't the bump maps raise the detail surfaces of the skin?  @Gordig,  Could one use the bump and normal maps for displacement?  Would that work.

    Bump maps don't change the geometry, they only create the appearance of height, whereas displacement does affect the actual geometry. I tried using bump maps for displacement and didn't get very good results, but I also didn't put much work into it. Normal maps wouldn't work in Iray, but some other engines, like Cycles, could use them for displacement.

    Normal maps do work in Iray, where did you read they do not? Like bump maps, they only give the illusion of movement, rather than actually moving the mesh. This way you don't need to knock up SubD to use normals. In my experience normals generally work a lot better than bumps, particularly if you need to get quite a deep cut, for example with bricks or kitchen tiles and the like.

    Normal maps wouldn't work *as displacement maps*. Of course they work as normal maps.

    Post edited by Gordig on
  • MoogooMoogoo Posts: 136

    @Jukingeo just had a play around with it, I get your point now. I tried recreating the head shot from the promo and I could see that as being doable and looking good but changing the lights just by a bit creates loads of points that look inverted while other bits looks fine. the vampire skin rather than the pale skin seems to work better on the face and body but obvioisly is not as dramatic. 

    the amount of messing around to get a decent image is just too high imho for this product it really needs a HD veins morph to get the best of it and be consistent. getting the lighs and angles to look good on one bit destroys another bit so unless you are doing heavy shadow play where the darkness covers the crappy bits it seems a waste of time.

    but ofcourse maybe i just can't get the best out of it.

     

  • jukingeojukingeo Posts: 711

    Moogoo said:

    @Jukingeo just had a play around with it, I get your point now. I tried recreating the head shot from the promo and I could see that as being doable and looking good but changing the lights just by a bit creates loads of points that look inverted while other bits looks fine. the vampire skin rather than the pale skin seems to work better on the face and body but obvioisly is not as dramatic. 

    the amount of messing around to get a decent image is just too high imho for this product it really needs a HD veins morph to get the best of it and be consistent. getting the lighs and angles to look good on one bit destroys another bit so unless you are doing heavy shadow play where the darkness covers the crappy bits it seems a waste of time.

    but ofcourse maybe i just can't get the best out of it.

    Sorry that I have not been here in a bit, but I don't visit this forum everyday.   Well, I am a bit disappointed that no fix presented itself.  So as Gordig pointed out, do you think the creator of the package fudged the outcome of the renders by using a different rendering engine such as Cycles?   That is a crock and I am really dismayed about that.   It is a shame that I discovered this issue after the 30 day window, otherwise I would have returned the product.

    Thanks,

    Geo

  • GordigGordig Posts: 10,171
    edited September 2022

    I wasn't suggesting that they used a different render engine. I could easily believe that that promo was made in DS with Iray, but lit in a very specific way that really highlighted the veins.

    Post edited by Gordig on
  • jukingeojukingeo Posts: 711
    edited March 2023

    Gordig said:

    I wasn't suggesting that they used a different render engine. I could easily believe that that promo was made in DS with Iray, but lit in a very specific way that really highlighted the veins.

    I had opened a ticket in regards to this issue and the person helping me was able to duplicate the concave / convex issue with the veins.  They told me they were in contact with the creator, but then I heard nothing.   I had followed up with TWO messages and received no answer.   So as of now, I would tell everyone to avoid buying the Leonard figure until the problem is fixed.

    Post edited by jukingeo on
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