What are the limitations on reading Poser Content items?

richardandtracy

I have a small amount of old Poser Content P4/5, but there are some interesting newer props I've not touched, because I'm not sure how they'll open in DS. So, can I ask..

1. Are there any newer versions of Poser files that DS can't read the geometry and rigging (eg P11 or P12)?
2. Are there any known incompatibilities with shaders etc that will cause DS to curl up & die/crash with no warning?
3. Does Poser/Firefly have shader scripting (like nVidia MDL) that would be so complex it's easier to delete all shaders and start from scratch in iRay?
4. Are there procedural shaders known in the wild that are entirely free of textures?
5. To a large extent I would expect most Poser content to import like old 3delight stuff. Is that an overly optimistic hope with new Poser content?

I'd really like to ask if you could tell me what I need to know, but that wouldn't be particularly useful given that I don't think you'll believe how little I know. 

I get the feeling that Poser can render just as realistically as DS, but it seems fewer people have the skills to force Poser to that level. Is it because there is a problem with the rendering engine or are they trying to squeeze the ultimate last bits out of a 3delight equivalent renderer? 

I'm also wanting to get my head around why the Poser prop promo images look so out-dated compared to DS props and whether it's inherent in the props or an artefact of the vendor or package.

Regards,

Richard.

carrie58

Like what ?DS  can't read the shaders of the new stuff but the old 3DeLight stuff mostly has to be adjusted to look decent ,there were a few things that I had to throw the bump map into GIMP and invert the colors to make it work better in DS ,but that was a long time ago .I'd say #5 is pretty much what you can expect ..I think that the promo images look out of date because they are ,also if you are dealing with freebies then ,they didn't bother to actually render an image with the promo just used what Poser popped out when it was saved .....hope that makes sense .I've been slowly moving my older Poser formated stuff to my DS library instead of my runtime ......less hunting .

Pendraia

The thing I've found that causes issues are pmd files. I've had to go into Poser, inject the morphs save as cr2 and open in ds and create objects to create morphs. Sometimes I've had to do separate cr2's for each morph. Some MC6 files have worked but it's probably more an approximation than the same shader.

Pendraia

A couple of quick render first is am eyes from the materials folder on Dawn.

Second is elven dawn dark skin for superfly...see how glossy it is

And 3rd is the same skin set up for firefly.

 

richardandtracy

Thank you for your help. I feel that while I am not confident buying Poser stuff, at least I know what red flags I should be aware of.

I will avoid anything that mentions a 'pmd' file (I don't have Poser), and possibly avoid any rigged items. 

The 'old fashioned' or 'out of date' promo look does not only apply to free items. There is a recent Poser item that has gone up in the Rendo marketplace. It's a 'Creepy Cemetery' and the promo thumbnail image is, how can I say this politely, complete rubbish. I hope I never advertise my freebies with as poor an image, let alone one where I hoped people would part with cash. The promo thumbnail looks as if it's a screenshot from a P4 textured preview. Just awful.

Regards,

Richard 

DaremoK3

@richardandtracy :

I can't answer all your questions, but...

"Is it because there is a problem with the rendering engine or are they trying to squeeze the ultimate last bits out of a 3delight equivalent renderer?"

Your join date shows you have been with us for a long time as well as most of us old-timers, but I don't really remember seeing you in the forums except for the past couple of years.

Were you not here when Daz's answer to Poser implementing Blender's Cycles Renderer (Superfly) was to implement Nvidia's Iray Renderer?

* EDIT:  My bad, I was remembering that backwards, but my sentiment is that in 2015 they both implemented next level renderers for closer real world parity for those wanting you to believe you are looking at a photograph instead of a 3D render...

I have seen renders from both software that rival each other by talented users over the years using either one, and the same goes for Poser Firefly vs Daz Studio 3Delight rendering.

I believe you will be able to find good answers to your Poser to DS equivalent questions if you Google Bagginsbill, and read up on what he can teach you from the Poser side (for the rendering/shaders aspect of your questions).

richardandtracy

DaremoK3, thank you for replying. I gave up completely on DS for a period of 12 years returning in 2019. The reason for stopping was my rendering PC took 26 hours to render a 3delight 1200 pixel square image. The reason I returned was I got a massively improved second hand machine. OK, it's now a decade old, but it can cope with up to DS4.15 (due to Win7 & drivers).

I shall look up Bagginsbill, thanks for the suggestion. I am aware that some Poser users can do remarkable work, but.. the mean standard seems to feel less 'modern' (for want of a better description, relating to renderer output quality) than the mean for images from DS.

Regards, Richard

Leana

richardandtracy said:

I have a small amount of old Poser Content P4/5, but there are some interesting newer props I've not touched, because I'm not sure how they'll open in DS. So, can I ask..

1. Are there any newer versions of Poser files that DS can't read the geometry and rigging (eg P11 or P12)?
2. Are there any known incompatibilities with shaders etc that will cause DS to curl up & die/crash with no warning?
3. Does Poser/Firefly have shader scripting (like nVidia MDL) that would be so complex it's easier to delete all shaders and start from scratch in iRay?
4. Are there procedural shaders known in the wild that are entirely free of textures?
5. To a large extent I would expect most Poser content to import like old 3delight stuff. Is that an overly optimistic hope with new Poser content?

I'd really like to ask if you could tell me what I need to know, but that wouldn't be particularly useful given that I don't think you'll believe how little I know. 

I get the feeling that Poser can render just as realistically as DS, but it seems fewer people have the skills to force Poser to that level. Is it because there is a problem with the rendering engine or are they trying to squeeze the ultimate last bits out of a 3delight equivalent renderer? 

I'm also wanting to get my head around why the Poser prop promo images look so out-dated compared to DS props and whether it's inherent in the props or an artefact of the vendor or package.

Most poser content works properly in DS with a bit of fiddling, but there are exceptions:

• Figures using Poser weight mapping (like La Femme and L'Homme, and items for them) or capsule rigging (a few poser 8 figures) will load with tons of warnings and distort when posed in DS.
• Poser dynamic cloth would be static objects in DS. Sometimes using dForce on them will work well, sometimes not.
• Poser dynamic hair, characters using PMD injection, or procedural materials won't work at all. They shouldn't cause crashes but simply won't load.
• Python scripts won't work at all
• Poser lights are usually pretty useless in DS as the parameters are very different

Materials will need to be adjusted as DS doesn't read most of the parameters from Poser materials, only basic settings like diffuse, transparency, basic bump, reflection, and specular strength but for example displacement or specular maps won't be read.

Pendraia

Both programs have good features but they are different. There are things I hate about posers interface some of that is about me being used to ds. 

There are more vendors these days making things for ds than poser as many who used to make for poser now do ds only as that's where the money is. 

The content creation tools in ds are better that said poser has improved. 

Pendraia

richardandtracy said:

Thank you for your help. I feel that while I am not confident buying Poser stuff, at least I know what red flags I should be aware of.

I will avoid anything that mentions a 'pmd' file (I don't have Poser), and possibly avoid any rigged items. 

The 'old fashioned' or 'out of date' promo look does not only apply to free items. There is a recent Poser item that has gone up in the Rendo marketplace. It's a 'Creepy Cemetery' and the promo thumbnail image is, how can I say this politely, complete rubbish. I hope I never advertise my freebies with as poor an image, let alone one where I hoped people would part with cash. The promo thumbnail looks as if it's a screenshot from a P4 textured preview. Just awful.

Regards,

Richard 

Just checked out creepy cemetery but the one I found is for ds not poser. Not sure if that's the one you're talking about. 

Kerya

Pendraia said:

Just checked out creepy cemetery but the one I found is for ds not poser. Not sure if that's the one you're talking about. 

 

https://www.renderosity.com/rr/mod/bcs/creepy-cemetery-for-poser/156670

https://www.renderosity.com/rr/mod/bcs/creepy-cemetery-for-daz-studio/156671

 

Bejaymac

1) Poser 7 and newer rigging isn't compatible with any version of DS, the Poser Import plugin can only read and convert the old "Parametric" rigging.

2) Poser and DS can't use each others shaders as they are specific to the render engines being used.
Any Poser content you import into DS will use the old Default Surface Shader which uses RSL and can be used by 3Delight.
However DS can only read the Poser 4 material settings in any Poser files (CR2,PP2,PZ2,MC6 and MT5), and the P4 settings can only use a handful of the texture types (diffuse,bump, trans etc).
Any materials that only use the Poser 5+ Material Room settings, means that the P4 settings will be empty, so DS wont be able to load anything from those.

Most of us old hands (DS 1.3) learned very early on not to use the Poser material settings, but to rather make our own in DS after the product was loaded.

3) As has been mentioned PMDs can be a pain, they really only work in DS when "called" from a CR2, as they can be hit or miss when called from a PZ3 scene file, and just wont work with a PP2 prop or INJ/REM PZ2.

There is another issue with Poser morphs most probably aren't aware of, normally to INJect a morph into a figure, that figure needs a morph channel to already exist. That is what PMDs were created for as they create the channel "on the fly", however since Poser 9 no Poser figure needs morph channels to already exist, even for non PMD INJ/REM PZ2s. As long as the data in the PZ2 is correct, then P9+ just slots the data onto which ever body part the data needs to be on.

4) Poser dynamics, clothing just loads as a static prop, but can "usually" be used with dforce without any issues.
Poser dynamic hair is Poser only and DS can't use it.

5) Things that can crash DS -

Circular ERC.
Poser has a thing called "Cross Talk", that's where the outfit on figure 2 takes the morph settings from figure 1. Most vendors never got the morph channel names right for it to be an issue, some others tried various methods to stop it, and some went totally ape**** about stopping it. Those are the ones that have the ERC from hell, and DS hates them, DS4 isn't as bad with them as it used to be so most wont crash it, but the items that do load aren't always fully working.

Stray code in the OBJ.
UVMapper Pro has had an issue for a long time, it holds onto data in RAM from the previous mesh, and only closing the program will clear it. If you don't close it and work and save a second mesh, then some of the first mesh data will be attached to the end of the OBJ for the second mesh, and 9 times out of 10 DS will crash when it tries to load the OBJ.

richardandtracy

Thank you. I shall look for stuff that says P6 or earlier. Sounds as if I was mostly right to steer clear of more recent Poser props, and I will continue to do so unless it's pretty basic. My thanks to everyone who helped. Regards, Richard.