Clothing not fitting after morph

caraTRON.7263

Hi, I'm still pretty new.  So I know about AutoFit for when a clothing item was designed for a different figure than the one you're using (Genesis 2, 3 etc), and I know how to get the AutoFit pane to appear in that scenario when it doesn't come up automatically.  But what about when the outfit was designed for the correct base figure, but it still doesn't fit right after modifying the figure?  Manually calling the AutoFit dialog doesn't seem to do anything in this situation, presumably because the intended base figure isn't changing.  Is there anything that can be done about this?

Specifically, I'm trying to use this outfit with the RawArt She Orc figure.  Both were designed for G8F, but the outfit has a lot of spots where it goes inside the body.  The figure I actually want to use has some further modifications to it which casue a few more holes to open up and also makes the lower legs not fit, but a lot of the problems, mainly on the upper legs, are present if I simply load the SheOrc character and apply the outfit to it.

Scaling the outfit up doesn't help.  By the time I've increased the scale enough to get the holes on the upper legs to disappear, a noticable gap has been created around the chest, and for the futherly modified figure increasing the scale makes the lower legs even worse.

I've attached two images so you can see what I'm talking about; one with the outfit loaded onto the SheOrc figure without further modifications, and one with the outfit scaled up a bit so you can get an idea of what it's supposed to look like.

Can I do something about this, or do some outfits just not work if you modify the body too much?  Thanks.

Catherine3678ab

caraTRON.7263 said:

Hi, I'm still pretty new.  So I know about AutoFit for when a clothing item was designed for a different figure than the one you're using (Genesis 2, 3 etc), and I know how to get the AutoFit pane to appear in that scenario when it doesn't come up automatically.  But what about when the outfit was designed for the correct base figure, but it still doesn't fit right after modifying the figure?  Manually calling the AutoFit dialog doesn't seem to do anything in this situation, presumably because the intended base figure isn't changing.  Is there anything that can be done about this?

Specifically, I'm trying to use this outfit with the RawArt She Orc figure.  Both were designed for G8F, but the outfit has a lot of spots where it goes inside the body.  The figure I actually want to use has some further modifications to it which casue a few more holes to open up and also makes the lower legs not fit, but a lot of the problems, mainly on the upper legs, are present if I simply load the SheOrc character and apply the outfit to it.

Scaling the outfit up doesn't help.  By the time I've increased the scale enough to get the holes on the upper legs to disappear, a noticable gap has been created around the chest, and for the futherly modified figure increasing the scale makes the lower legs even worse.

I've attached two images so you can see what I'm talking about; one with the outfit loaded onto the SheOrc figure without further modifications, and one with the outfit scaled up a bit so you can get an idea of what it's supposed to look like.

Can I do something about this, or do some outfits just not work if you modify the body too much?  Thanks.

 I hope that outfit is actually more than one piece. {I don't own either the character or this clothing set}

Yes, it should be able to be made to fit but it will require a little work, called morphs. In Notepad, copy/paste the names of whichever generated morphs are made by D/S into the clothing when the character morph was dialed into the figure.

If the clothing can be loaded one piece at a time, work with one piece at a time - whether you use Hexagon, or dFormers, or other means - make the one item to look correct, target figure AND clothing piece to be at BASE Resolution, no geografts attached.

Export out the clothing piece that fits as .obj. Then in D/S remove it from the scene and load in a fresh one. Select that clothing piece.

Using Morph loader pro, bring back in that morphed .obj and make the morph in the clothing -- call it the same as the generated morph was called. If it looks okay, zero the morph and save it REVERSING deformations {so we don't save the character shape in it}. Once it is saved, then remove it from the scene and load in a fresh one. It will now [hopefully] look like it is supposed to.

{To get beyond the generated morphs which D/S will keep creating - Parameters Tab in Edit mode - rename the generated morphs to something you will recognize as what not to save. I use the term "delete this" on both the name and the label. D/S will not make 2 morphs with the same name on the same item.}

lorraineopua

Have you tried an smoothing modifier? Or if it has one, upping the collision amount? That's usually my first go-to.

caraTRON.7263

lorraineopua said:

Have you tried an smoothing modifier? Or if it has one, upping the collision amount? That's usually my first go-to.

It does not appear to have a collision amount, but applying a smoothing modifier (which I did not previously know about) almost fixes it.  There's still a few tiny collisions, but I might now be able to get it to look right from any given angle by tweaking the scaling.

On the subject of said tweaking, I tried just now to adjust the translation of the clothing item, and it doesn't do anything at all, even when I unparent it.  Why is that?

 

@Catherine3678ab, what you said may not be necessary, but in the interest of learning, I'll ask about it since I didn't understand most of it.

Catherine3678ab said:

I hope that outfit is actually more than one piece. {I don't own either the character or this clothing set}

The outfit has multiple pieces, but what you're looking at is just one piece, the main one.

Yes, it should be able to be made to fit but it will require a little work, called morphs.

I thought a "morph" was a slider that changes the shape of something, like a Face Transfer slider or "Arms Length," "Nose Size" etc.  What are you actually referring to?

In Notepad, copy/paste the names of whichever generated morphs are made by D/S into the clothing when the character morph was dialed into the figure.

If you mean something analogous the the sliders I mentioned above for a figure, then I have two questions about this.  One, I don't know how to see that for a clothing item.  And two, if whatever you're talking about can also be used to see what body modifications have been made to a figure when using a preset without having to check each one manually, then I would definitely like to know how to do that.

If you're talking about something else, then again I don't know what you mean.

If the clothing can be loaded one piece at a time, work with one piece at a time - whether you use Hexagon, or dFormers, or other means - make the one item to look correct, target figure AND clothing piece to be at BASE Resolution, no geografts attached.

Apart from the fact that what I showed above isn't multiple pieces, I have no idea how to do what you just said; and if I did, I probably wouldn't have asked the question in the manner that I did.  I said that the only things I knew to do about this were AutoFit and adjusting the scale (and now, what lorraineopua said).  You said "make the item look correct"; and that would be great, but how?

Richard Haseltine

caraTRON.7263 said:

lorraineopua said:

Have you tried an smoothing modifier? Or if it has one, upping the collision amount? That's usually my first go-to.

It does not appear to have a collision amount, but applying a smoothing modifier (which I did not previously know about) almost fixes it.  There's still a few tiny collisions, but I might now be able to get it to look right from any given angle by tweaking the scaling.

On the subject of said tweaking, I tried just now to adjust the translation of the clothing item, and it doesn't do anything at all, even when I unparent it.  Why is that?

Parenting is an optional feature, the bit that matters is fitting (Fit to in the Parameters pane with the clothing selected). As long as the item is fitted it is locked to the base figure's pose.

 

@Catherine3678ab, what you said may not be necessary, but in the interest of learning, I'll ask about it since I didn't understand most of it.

Catherine3678ab said:

I hope that outfit is actually more than one piece. {I don't own either the character or this clothing set}

The outfit has multiple pieces, but what you're looking at is just one piece, the main one.

Yes, it should be able to be made to fit but it will require a little work, called morphs.

I thought a "morph" was a slider that changes the shape of something, like a Face Transfer slider or "Arms Length," "Nose Size" etc.  What are you actually referring to?

You can create morphs for any kind of shape chnage, including those that will help with fitting. You can often make minor adjustments inside Daz Studio - select the clothing, Create>New dForm, move the Field that is added by tthis until the vertices (points) in the affect area highlight, and then move the dForm itself (parent to the dForm's base) to pull the mesh around.

In Notepad, copy/paste the names of whichever generated morphs are made by D/S into the clothing when the character morph was dialed into the figure.

If you mean something analogous the the sliders I mentioned above for a figure, then I have two questions about this.  One, I don't know how to see that for a clothing item.  And two, if whatever you're talking about can also be used to see what body modifications have been made to a figure when using a preset without having to check each one manually, then I would definitely like to know how to do that.

If you're talking about something else, then again I don't know what you mean.

If the clothing can be loaded one piece at a time, work with one piece at a time - whether you use Hexagon, or dFormers, or other means - make the one item to look correct, target figure AND clothing piece to be at BASE Resolution, no geografts attached.

Apart from the fact that what I showed above isn't multiple pieces, I have no idea how to do what you just said; and if I did, I probably wouldn't have asked the question in the manner that I did.  I said that the only things I knew to do about this were AutoFit and adjusting the scale (and now, what lorraineopua said).  You said "make the item look correct"; and that would be great, but how?

Catherine3678ab

Daz Studio comes with a collection of "content creation tools" ... all those morph dials, etc. that come with the products we buy here were created by the PAs. We also can create a lot of things either for our own models [made from scratch] or as additional perks for the items we have purchased.

In my DA Gallery I have a Tutorials folder which has includes one called "Making Replacement Full Body Morphs"

https://www.deviantart.com/catherine3678ab/gallery/74400506/tutorials

As what you've shown is all one piece, then if you are using Hexagon, I would recommend making and saving several little morphs - and then combining all of them into one Full Body Morph for the character figure. {this is for reasons concerning the limits of Hexagon - if using Zbrush or similar, then hopefully you could do it all in one session.} As you mention that the 'smoothing modifier' almost corrects most of the issues, then certainly use that first so that there would be less work to do in a modeller if you want to try making a morph.

About renaming the dials - the tutorial on Making pJCMs for Clothing in Daz Studio covers that.

Renaming a generated morph as I mentioned, is okay as is. However if the generated morph was saved, then the renamed morph also has to be re-saved and then manually deleted from the data folders when D/S is closed.

 

caraTRON.7263

 

Richard Haseltine said:

You can create morphs for any kind of shape chnage, including those that will help with fitting. You can often make minor adjustments inside Daz Studio - select the clothing, Create>New dForm, move the Field that is added by tthis until the vertices (points) in the affect area highlight, and then move the dForm itself (parent to the dForm's base) to pull the mesh around.

I've managed to do this, which appears to result in my being able to make [X/Y/Z] [Translate/Rotate/Scale] morphs to the dForm which has effects on the clothing, where applying the same action to the clothing item itself produces a different or no result; but all of those actions seem fairly hamhanded. How would I make more detailed adjustements to a clothing item?

 

Catherine3678ab said:

Daz Studio comes with a collection of "content creation tools" ... all those morph dials, etc. that come with the products we buy here were created by the PAs. We also can create a lot of things either for our own models [made from scratch] or as additional perks for the items we have purchased.

In my DA Gallery I have a Tutorials folder which has includes one called "Making Replacement Full Body Morphs"

https://www.deviantart.com/catherine3678ab/gallery/74400506/tutorials

As what you've shown is all one piece, then if you are using Hexagon, I would recommend making and saving several little morphs - and then combining all of them into one Full Body Morph for the character figure. {this is for reasons concerning the limits of Hexagon - if using Zbrush or similar, then hopefully you could do it all in one session.} As you mention that the 'smoothing modifier' almost corrects most of the issues, then certainly use that first so that there would be less work to do in a modeller if you want to try making a morph.

About renaming the dials - the tutorial on Making pJCMs for Clothing in Daz Studio covers that.

Renaming a generated morph as I mentioned, is okay as is. However if the generated morph was saved, then the renamed morph also has to be re-saved and then manually deleted from the data folders when D/S is closed.

 

You seem to be talking about making morphs to the figure in order to fix problems with the clothing.  Shouldn't I be making morphs to the clothing item?

 

Here's an example of a specific change I'd like to be able to make to a clothing item.  (Warning, discussion of mammaries incoming. ) If you look at the product images for this torso armor, it seems as though it would show a significant amount of cleavage, but when I load it onto my figure, the width of the "corset lace" portion is virtually nonexistant.  In the first image I've attached, the upper orange dot is roughly where the metal end and the lace begins. In broad strokes, I'd like to make the horizontal amount of chest uncovered be wider; not necessarily as much as the first outfit above, but more in that dierction.  Adjusting the Cleavage slider to push the breasts further away from eachother doesn't help much; the problem, it seems, is that the portion of the breast that the armor is meant to leave uncovered is being mostly taken up by the Z distance away from the sternum, leaving little space in the X direction.  What it seems that I would need to do, then, is reshape the armor so that the boundry between the metal and the lace portion (marked in orange) falls further out along the edge of the breast.  How might I do that?

Catherine3678ab

caraTRON.7263 said:

 

Richard Haseltine said:

You can create morphs for any kind of shape chnage, including those that will help with fitting. You can often make minor adjustments inside Daz Studio - select the clothing, Create>New dForm, move the Field that is added by tthis until the vertices (points) in the affect area highlight, and then move the dForm itself (parent to the dForm's base) to pull the mesh around.

I've managed to do this, which appears to result in my being able to make [X/Y/Z] [Translate/Rotate/Scale] morphs to the dForm which has effects on the clothing, where applying the same action to the clothing item itself produces a different or no result; but all of those actions seem fairly hamhanded. How would I make more detailed adjustements to a clothing item?

 

Catherine3678ab said:

Daz Studio comes with a collection of "content creation tools" ... all those morph dials, etc. that come with the products we buy here were created by the PAs. We also can create a lot of things either for our own models [made from scratch] or as additional perks for the items we have purchased.

In my DA Gallery I have a Tutorials folder which has includes one called "Making Replacement Full Body Morphs"

https://www.deviantart.com/catherine3678ab/gallery/74400506/tutorials

As what you've shown is all one piece, then if you are using Hexagon, I would recommend making and saving several little morphs - and then combining all of them into one Full Body Morph for the character figure. {this is for reasons concerning the limits of Hexagon - if using Zbrush or similar, then hopefully you could do it all in one session.} As you mention that the 'smoothing modifier' almost corrects most of the issues, then certainly use that first so that there would be less work to do in a modeller if you want to try making a morph.

About renaming the dials - the tutorial on Making pJCMs for Clothing in Daz Studio covers that.

Renaming a generated morph as I mentioned, is okay as is. However if the generated morph was saved, then the renamed morph also has to be re-saved and then manually deleted from the data folders when D/S is closed.

 

You seem to be talking about making morphs to the figure in order to fix problems with the clothing.  Shouldn't I be making morphs to the clothing item?

Well I'm not. Don't know why you think I am. When you dial in the character morph to the figure -- it generates those morphs into the clothing. Those generated morphs need to be replaced with morphs that make the clothing look better.

Here's an example of a specific change I'd like to be able to make to a clothing item.  (Warning, discussion of mammaries incoming. ) If you look at the product images for this torso armor, it seems as though it would show a significant amount of cleavage, but when I load it onto my figure, the width of the "corset lace" portion is virtually nonexistant.  In the first image I've attached, the upper orange dot is roughly where the metal end and the lace begins. In broad strokes, I'd like to make the horizontal amount of chest uncovered be wider; not necessarily as much as the first outfit above, but more in that dierction.  Adjusting the Cleavage slider to push the breasts further away from eachother doesn't help much; the problem, it seems, is that the portion of the breast that the armor is meant to leave uncovered is being mostly taken up by the Z distance away from the sternum, leaving little space in the X direction.  What it seems that I would need to do, then, is reshape the armor so that the boundry between the metal and the lace portion (marked in orange) falls further out along the edge of the breast.  How might I do that?

Morphs are generally made using a modeller such as Hexagon, Zbrush, Blender, etc. 

The reason I suggest putting the figure in base resolution is because it will pass subdivision onto the clothing. We need the clothing at base resolution to make morphs. While sending items over the bridge to Hexagon normally takes care of those details, some prefer to export out .obj files [no groups] to import into other modellers to make their morphs.

Have you ever made a morph?

Catherine3678ab

You might find this product helpful: https://www.daz3d.com/sy-clothing-breast-helper-genesis-8-female

I have no idea if it will work with exposed flesh.

 

caraTRON.7263

Catherine3678ab said:

Well I'm not. Don't know why you think I am.

  Because the tutorial you referenced on your DA is about making morphs for a figure, and then you mentioned "combining all of them into one Full Body Morph for the character figure."

Have you ever made a morph?

 No.  As I said I'm very new.

Those generated morphs need to be replaced with morphs that make the clothing look better.

So how do I get started on learning how to do that?  Again, the tutorial you referenced appears to pertain to morphing figures.

Also, I meant to ask in my last post, what did you mean by "the PAs?"

all those morph dials, etc. that come with the products we buy here were created by the PAs.

Catherine3678ab

caraTRON.7263 said:

Catherine3678ab said:

Well I'm not. Don't know why you think I am.

  Because the tutorial you referenced on your DA is about making morphs for a figure, and then you mentioned "combining all of them into one Full Body Morph for the character figure."

Have you ever made a morph?

 No.  As I said I'm very new.

Those generated morphs need to be replaced with morphs that make the clothing look better.

So how do I get started on learning how to do that?  Again, the tutorial you referenced appears to pertain to morphing figures.

Also, I meant to ask in my last post, what did you mean by "the PAs?"

all those morph dials, etc. that come with the products we buy here were created by the PAs.

PAs = published artists [whose works are sold in the Daz3D store]

https://www.deviantart.com/catherine3678ab/art/Making-Replacement-Full-Body-Morphs-Tutorial-872706429

In the walk through tutorial, it is the 'Battle Pilot Suit' being morphed.
The shape of the character "Oso3D Pugman Body" is being put into the Battle Pilot Suit.

Best way for learning is by doing ;-)  A walk through tutorial is one that you can follow along page by page while doing the work as well. That is how I make them so hopefully I don't miss too many if any steps that require mentioning. Replace the outfit I used, with 1 you want to morph and the character morph in Genesis# that you want to use.

Tip: To make it easier to see poke through, before sending the figure and clothing over the bridge to Hexagon, apply a basic shader [and red is a good colour] over the Genesis figure.

 

 

Saxa -- SD

Making your own morphs is very best as Catherine is showing.

But in case you aren't up to that yet:

(1) Large "mammarie" fitting (lol) is one of the biggest challenges.
(2) Suggest you get Zevos:

• (a) Zevos's fit control
• (b) Zevos fit-control addon
• (c) Zevos https://www.daz3d.com/projection-morph-manager

(d) and to use with (c) get body morphs (rarestone or EJ if still at DAZ store) for G8, or Zevos though don't that, so don't know whether to recommend

With these you would have a good start matching warrioress figures.
Not perfect but would get you closer and started.  Though Catherines way is "free" at cost of lotsa sweat and learning.  My way most of the time too.

Legs may need you to work more with option (c).
Mamaries should be doable with a+b.
Smoothing while good only gets you the last bit there.

caraTRON.7263

Catherine3678ab said:

You might find this product helpful: https://www.daz3d.com/sy-clothing-breast-helper-genesis-8-female

I have no idea if it will work with exposed flesh.

 That product has just about solved the problem with the Retaliation armor top, thanks very much! 

 

Saxa -- SD said:

(d) and to use with (c) get body morphs (rarestone or EJ if still at DAZ store) for G8, or Zevos though don't that, so don't know whether to recommend

I'm not sure what you mean here.  Are you suggesting I get a product similar to this one?  If so, I already have that exact product.  Otherwise, I don't understand this one (d), can you please try to explain it again?  Thanks.

Those other three products, I will most likely get eventually; but not right now as they are relatively expensive and not currently on sale. Thanks for pointing them out.

Saxa -- SD

re: Genesis 8 Female Body Morphs

hmm, best way to explain is - they are like grade school level morphs, or good start, and cover a decent amount of possibilities.  Absolutely you could use with projection manager. 

Those other reccos allow alot more morph customization.  If that's what you want. 

Forgot to mention - for legs and quite a few other body sections this would be way more relevant > https://www.daz3d.com/shape-shift-for-genesis-8-female-s

The rarestone and EJ morphs were  for  head/face, but so extensive.  Had used these so often I kinda had forgetful moment they didn't deal with body, like shape shift did.  My bad.  Just typing and moving on too fast.  Rest is good.

edit: oh, if you do morph, absolutely use adjust to rig or some poses will be wonky.

caraTRON.7263

Saxa -- SD said:

re: Genesis 8 Female Body Morphs

hmm, best way to explain is - they are like grade school level morphs, or good start, and cover a decent amount of possibilities.  Absolutely you could use with projection manager. 

Those other reccos allow alot more morph customization.  If that's what you want. 

Forgot to mention - for legs and quite a few other body sections this would be way more relevant > https://www.daz3d.com/shape-shift-for-genesis-8-female-s

The rarestone and EJ morphs were  for  head/face, but so extensive.  Had used these so often I kinda had forgetful moment they didn't deal with body, like shape shift did.  My bad.  Just typing and moving on too fast.  Rest is good.

edit: oh, if you do morph, absolutely use adjust to rig or some poses will be wonky.

I know that the one I linked is relatively basic and that there is much more useful stuff out there; I just wasn't sure I understood what you were saying.

By Rarestone I assume you mean this, though it's labeled as vol. 1 and there don't appear to be any others.  Search results lead me to suspect that by EJ you mean this, though it dosn't seem to use the term directly.  Between those two packages and this one, which one would you recommend the most?

I was already aware of Shape Shift and definitely want it, but I am again waiting for it to go on sale. ^_^;

Saxa -- SD

Yup that rarestone product.
Has 390 individual maya-sculpted made morphs, which is a ton.  
Never saw a volume 2. First one was so comprehensive already.
See too it's now DazOriginal and Vendor Rarestone officially is 100% gone from Daz store.
Least product still there.

Just checked.  
The EJ product no longer looks like here.
Product was named EJ Face Morphs And Details for Genesis 8 Female(s).
Last i heard they were here - EmmaandJordi at Gumroad

As for recommend, I only have Rarestone and EJ and used both tons.  Very quality.
One did one thing better, and another did this.  So used inter-changeably.
Would guess with same with Zevos 200.
Zevo does make nice morphs as I saw in Shape shift.
Though did have to delete the erc in one of his moprhs cos it caused issues with my figure pose.

Oh good you already have shape-shift wishlisted.
Yeah if morphing you should love having it.

Catherine3678ab

If you ever want to try making a morph, here's a video tutorial. Just a couple of details though, 1. Right-click on the parameter dial and check "edit mode" before renaming anything and 2. in Hexagon, when returning to Hexagon - click on the Accept button to get Hexagon working again.

https://youtu.be/ji6ZGBwStl8