Genesis 9 Question
morrisonmp
Posts: 152
Hi. So, I'm still fairly new to Daz. Just started in March of 2022. Been really enjoying it.
I'm curious about the on-ramp to Genesis 9. Basically, I've been really happy with Genesis 8 and 8.1 characters but I realize that - at some point - it will be practical to make the switch to G9.
But so far, the G9 characters that have been released are not impressive. My main complaint is that they seem... doughy. They seem soft and very round. I've played with Victoria 9, the new base 9 characters, and a couple of the released 9 characters so far and they are... just not "sharp." And some of the characters proportions just feel odd to me.
So far, I've been kind of interpreting this as the difficulty of building a character off a base that can take both male and female shapes with no dilineation between them but I'm not sure if that is a fair critique (because I am not a creator).
I don't mean to put down the work of any creators. I'm sure they work hard and do their best to make awesome products. I just don't see G9 as a viable figure yet and I'm wondering, how much of this happened between the G3 and G8 switch? How much can we realistically expect from the G9 character as an improvement on G8? How long until really high-end G9 figures start appearing?
And how long until G8 new releases become so scarce that we have no choice but to switch?
Thanks.
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Comments
There are over 13,000 items in the store tagged for the G8 figures. What is missing that's keeping you from rendering the images you want to render? And what's been released so far for G9 that doesn't have a similar product made for a previous generation?
I'm not asking to be snarky. I just don't understand this 'forced' mentality.
So chances are quite high that you don't own all products you are interested in, right?
From what I've gathering from the forum, G9 has great ability to be used for portraits. Less so for full body shots. Clothes and stuff for G8 seem to fit nicely to G9, but stuff for G9 seems not to work with G8 or before...
Considering that most bargain sales will in the near future offer tons of G8(.1) products, while the G9 stuff will only have the usual ~ 50% off, from a pure economical aspect spending your money on G8(.1) products makes a lot of sense. When G9 has "ripened" a bit more - and got rid of some less than 100% perfectly working issues - there will also more sales offering G9 as a lower price.
So it's all about You, your preferences, fiscal ability and maybe existing (or not existence) patience.
Since you started your Daz Studio journey not very long ago, on March 22, there will be SO MANY products in the Store for G8 and G8.1 that it will keep you happy rendering with your * and that is what I got from your post * with your prefered G8 / G8.1.
I personally prefer G9 now, since I have rendered a fair bit with it.
If you do not like the look and feel of G9, you do not need to switch, as I said, all the products for G8 and G8.1 will keep you busy for a long time.
I am rendering with G8 for years and still do not have all products that are made for G8 and G8.1 :)
I agree with the previous responses - why do you feel that you would need to "switch"? If you don't like any of the G9 characters released then don't buy them. Just because G9 exists it does not mean that G8x, G3 etc suddenly become useless. If you are happy with your current figures then keep using them to produce your renders and keep buying stuff that works with them.
PAs will obviously be making new items compatible with G9 since that its the latest figure - hopefully they will also be compatible with a few previous generations too. But even if not, then it doesn't matter, no-one is forced to buy the latest stuff and plenty of older items are perfectly good and arer still included in the sales.
You should keep focussing on the items that appeal to you and not worry about feeling forced into anything :)
Use whatever figure best suits your needs. I started using DS during G8's run, have a massive library of G8 assets, and wouldn't be able to use G9 exclusively for quite a while due to lacking certain items. Hell, someone on the forum is still using V3/V4 assets in DS2.
I didn't mean for the tone of my original post to be snarky either. I'm not unhappy with what exists for G8. I've built up way too much of a library already at the expense of my bank account to say that.
But at some point, especially with clothing, you'll see enough trend/fashion changes - along with props like phones, tech, etc. that assets that are "keeping up with the times" will become scarcer for older generation figures. That is what I mean when I say that, at some point it will become a practical necessity to change over. Not that the figures themselves are going to be "outdated" or that you'll be "forced" to change.
I am also legitimately curious about the bodies of G9. The structural changes to G9 seem much more significant than from G3 to G8. And, yes, they do seem odd to me so far. But I understand that is purely a personal perception and that others might feel different.
It seems as if a lot of people took this more as an attack on G9 than it was meant to be. I was just curious about the community thoughts on the initial state of G9, how it might compare to previous generation changes, and how the asset timeline/shakeout might go.
Props, architecture, environments, vehicles, etc are not tied to any specific generation of figures, there may be poses for some generation but that doesn't prevent from using them with any other generation of figures.
There were high hopes for the generation after G8/G8.1, now those hopes have moved to the next generation when ever that may come.
Two points to keep in mind:
At some point they will release a clothing coverter for G9 to convert back to G8. They've done this with every generation. If for some reason someone here at Daz does not make a clothing converter, chances are high someone will make one at Renderosity, Renderhub, or release a free version. We've already seen that with vendors at Renderhub making products that allow you to use g8 skins on g9 well before Daz released one, and I saw there is a free G9 to G8 pose converer at ShareCG. Which is a shame for Daz vendors, because Daz's usual feet dragging causes its vendors to lose sales. Honestly, why am I'm going to now pay for a g9 to g8 pose converter if the free one works unless it offers some functionality that the free one doesn't (shrug).
Secondly, shop at other places besides Daz. There's a natural hesistancy at first to only shop here, but over time you realize your needs will not all be met by Daz. Renderosity, RenderHub, Renderotica, even ShareCG will have products both paid and free that you can use in Daz. If you were to look at the new releases at Renderosity, almost all of the new content is G8 because that is what most people are still using.
I didn't read your initial post as an attack on G9, and I think it's interesting to hear a newer user's take on it. I think there will probably be vendor-created fixes to some of G9's bend issues, but it's difficult to say; I still see a lot of creators focusing on G8/8.1, and im not sure if it's because they're still working on G9 products or because they don't plan to support G9.
I prefer G9 because I have to fight less with it to do what I want to do, but I also customize the assets I use heavily, adjust mesh in ZBrush as needed before rendering, and do extensive postwork. I'll manually paint over entire sections of a render if it doesn't work. Expressions are one of the most difficult things to fix in post if they're off in the original, and I've had much better results with G9 taking custom morph mixes without it completely warping the way expressions look.
That's especially critical to me because most of the characters I make are meant to be used as story actors, so they need to be flexible in using as many poses and expressions as possible. The unified figure also helps here, because it means not having to use autofit to kitbash pieces from female outfits (which tend to be higher quality, more detailed, and have greater variety) onto male characters. Any piece autofit turns into rubber is a thing I have to remember to fix every time a character is in a pose that moves it unnaturally. I can sometimes make this work with some careful geometry editing, but it's unreliable.
Being able to use all the morphs for a generation on one figure is also really liberating and lets me do things I couldn't with G8.
A specific thing I had trouble with was G8's face often looking wonky to me if it wasn't ideally proportioned, which meant that I ended up making characters more movie star pretty than they were meant to be. With G9 I find it much easier to create characters who look interesting, dignified, and charismatic while more closely resembling people from everyday life.
I think this is why I prefer to think of G8/8.1 and G9 as different tools for different needs, because I fought with G8. 8.1 was a big improvement to me, but the persistent feeling of "I can't get this to look right" was always there. I think a lot of people who never felt that way about G8 do feel that way about G9, and it may never hit the mark for them, just because it serves different priorities.
If 8 and 8.1 continue to be popular figures (which it looks like they will be), there's a good chance vendors will keep producing items for them, or that there'll be conversion scripts to make the newer G9 stuff usable on G8.
Props are the easiest to use with other generations, usually. And there's usually also a lot available as freebies. Clothes... I would expect many PAs go their G8 catalog and "adapt" these designs for G9. This happened with many G3 outfits already, and for quite a few PAs repetition is a business model. Add to that, real world fashion isn't - afaik - not really mirrored in DAZland, else we wouldn't have so many wild west, pirate, goth, "medieval", fantasy and whatever outfits. Usually when DAZ is planning a new "themed" DAZ named figure - like Victoria 9 now - PAs do their best to produce fitting stuff for the theme of that figure. Often oldfashioned.
So, the point where you would "have to" go for G9 is - right now - far away. And, as mentioned, the chances of the products released NOW for G9 will get cheaper the longer you wait for buying them..
There's always the fomo on the latest release. As new products are released, we associate them with being "next level" and "newer and improved".
But, if I had to right now, I could use Genesis 1(2011) for my work and be perfectly fine. Why? Because I don't focus on realism, I focus on stylized characters and animation. So newer and improved realism doesn't really serve my needs. It just depends on your needs and goals. From V4 to G8, if you have the right products, most of the products for these figures are interchangeable. You can use Xtransfer to convert morphs from G8 to G3. And you can use GenX with addons to further convert from G3 to G1. There are clothing converters that convert from V4 to G3/G8. So there is a lifetime of content available for Daz if you have the right converters. Millions of possibilities. It's amazing to me.
I feel I have to add that I too have a massive G3 / G8 / G8.1 database and when G9 popped up, I in my moment of insanity, jumped. Okay, some things carry over but in general I now feel that we are getting gouged for items some of us have purchased for the other umpty scrunch items hogging up space on my computers. Bone Doctor is my latest beef, I bought the prior bundle and did ask are we going to get a free upgrade due to the cost for G9 (along with Face Maker. Have yet to hear a response from Abalone). At best a patch or upgrade not nickle and dimeing the community by breaking up every prior version.
Not to be, alas, and yes DAZ I know you and your constiuants are allowed to make money, you put work into products, but G9 IMHO should have come backwards compatabe with many of the items we purchased at lest from G3 on.
I'm not hating or dising G9, and our glorious community folks have been busy pushing out pose convertors, still it take more time now fitting and tweaking items to work with the model. Not good in light of the current high price increases here at DAZ, I stay with G3/8/8.1 for now and until incomes improve, prices go down, G9 will be an as needed not often used model in my inventory.
Clothes can be autofitted to Genesis 9. Beyond that, there are threads on creating your own clone shape to AutoFit Genesis 9 items to earlier versions, and to use various tools to transfer maps and non-HD morphs to Gensis 9 (or, in principle, the reverse).
...which, of course, would not be needed if such compatibility would have been just built into G9. Which, of course, would make certain products unnecessary. Which, of course, would please some customers (= spending less money) and not please some PAs (= earning less money). How's that adage? You can please some people all of the time or all people some of the time, but you can't please all the people all of the time.
It doesn't have anything to do with making more money :) It is because there's only a certain amount of staff and you have to pick what is going to be of the most benefit to users from the start. Sure - they can employ more and more people - but their salaries have to come from somewhere. Prices will have to raised even further. They already spent a huge amount of money on making clothing items compatible from previous generations - more than users realise.
I can understand your view of G9's 'doughy' look, as that was my first reaction as well. I think I called them 'Gumby'.
I love Victoria 9 and Michael 9, and picked up both Mega bundles because of their excellent content, and got the Pixie 9 bundle yesterday. But after going through my 20,000+ products to pick which to load onto my MacBookPro M1, and try to keep it simple, I found what I like to use and not use. And many of the items I installed go back to David 3, M4/V4, G1, G2, G3, and of course, G8/G8.1.
In between, I have pulled up the Base 9 figures and played with them as more morph packs, and then the few characters I bought from by PAs, that gave me a little more confidence in the character. As each release comes from my favorite PAs, it will give me the options I look for. And I am finding many of the non-G9 clothing and hairs I put on them work quite well, with some reservations (shoes and I understand long hair).
As far as clothes go for your current characters, that is a reasonable concern. Women especially change styles often, but I am finding men do as well, especially in pant shapes. I have been studying Marvelous Designer and today broke through problem I had. I want to be able to bring my ideas to life, if set in the past or today or the future for guys or gals. That is an option for you. There are other programs I understand that can do it, Blender is one I think? And shaders which keep up to new styles in colors, can keep basic clothing fresh.
But the Genesis 9 Essentials has everything you need to play with the characters for free. No extra expense.
From my personal experience in the world of transactions everything ALWAYS has to do with money. Either making more or making at least not less. The problem is always finding the right way to reach the goal. And there's also always different opinions if the chosen way is the right one, depending on personal opinions. From my personal opinion, a different approach would have been more beneficial, but of course I can understand that You have a different opinion.
True - I'm interested to hear what your approach would have been? :)
I don't understand why people think they have to switch to a new generation. You can still use everything you have. Over the years I've collected so much that I don't even have to use autofit if I don't want to. I have enough native clothing, morphs, poses for each generation that I can use whatever I have for that generation. I will use G8 clothes on G8, G3 clothes on G3, etc... I have all the converters but never really had a use for them. I will use G9 clothes on G9 as well as autofitting G8 clothes for now but going forward I have more than enough assets for G8 that I will never need to use G9 clothes or poses on G8. And G8 clothes aren't going anywhere (unless the PA leaves) and will probably be highly discounted in the future. I think all the genearations are still viable. It's not like buying a new microwave and throwing away your old one. You can still use everything and each generation has its pros and cons for various uses, whether realism, toons, animation, artistic non-realistic renders, etc... For now I'm only getting G9 stuff if it's highly discounted and triggering a bigger discount on older products I want or freebies. But it's piling up. I have enough now where I can use G9 without really having to buy anything else for it, but I probably will if some items continue to trigger big discounts or freebies on older products in my wishlist.
I do see what the OP meant by doughy. I thought G1,2,3 were also doughy looking although V4 and G8 were not. I'm wondering if maybe G8 and V4 have more facial bones or polygons? I don't really know what goes on under the hood but I also see a difference in the various generations.
To make it as consumerfriendly as possible by giving it full forward/backward compatibility without the need of having to buy any "conversion" products. Which probably should be expected to be my chosen option, as I'm a consumer/customer, not someone living from producing any additional stuff for DAZ. Having to spend less to get a fully working product is a classical customer interest.
To make that possible you would not really have any advances.
And a very large staff increasing the price of products that noone will pay. This isn't some upper multi million dollar company with a crew of thousands.
Yes that was my Santa wishlist too :)
So here's my boots on the ground actual experience - not an opinion - experience. First off - its a complete new figure. That required time and money spent to make clothing as compatible as possible from previous generations (which it is).
None of the previous generations had instant UV maps that worked from previous generations. PAs saw a need and created products. The same will happen with G9 - for textures and clothing.
Its a free figure that comes with a ton of free stuff - all the extras like the eyebrows didn't happen by themselves. Daz paid money for them and then gave them for free to users. Same with the templates. Same with the development of the whole figure. Salaries were paid - and the skill needed meant that its not baseline salaries either.
G9 is not nearly as alike to Genesis up to Genesis 8 .1 as the previous generations were to each other. Its a complete new mesh. New texturing system. New rigging system. Ability to add scripts to the figure in DS. A lot of research went into each of these sections - it wasn't just slapped together and called good enough - it involved nearly a year of research, design, testing and fine tuning. At some point you have to draw a line in the sand and say this is now at a stage where it can be released.
At no point in the whole process did DAZ say "let's leave this out because we can make money from it". A lot of hard work went into the creation of G9.
Why couldn't they have left the G9 UVs the same as G8 or 8.1? That would have solved at least half of the complaints I'm seeing here.
Because its not the same mesh. Its a complete new figure. All UVMaps are created from scratch. To make it fit on G8 is very time consuming.
because its a different model and its not possible to make it 100% seamless if you keep the same UV map. different vertex count, different propotions make it impossible. sure you can get close but not perfect.
now the texture space is utilized better that means better texture quality.
Oh, I believe You about that "a lot of hard work" part... Usually developing something new takes a lot of hard work. Sometimes "new" isn't automatically also "better" or "what the consumer would want to have". Doesn't mean that G9 isn't a nice product... for those who need it.
And I also believe when you say "let's leave this out because we can make money from it", because that would be something that only real bad companies do. Alas, I still believe that the "Let's leave it like this, as implementing more would cost us too much" aspect also came into play, because it kinda always does. And - voila, as the italians say - we're back on the "where's the money?" part.. And the "make all people happy all the time is impossible" adage.
Won't go into more detail about other posts by other people here, as it would just lead to my post going to nirvana...
Agree 100%. I've been playing around with DAZ people before they were DAZ ( back in the old Poser Zygote Days). I stuck with Poser and V4 until Genesis 2 came out because I didn't like the look of a "uni-figure". The shoulders and chest never looked right to this classically trained former traditonal ( now digital) artist. For the same reason, I'm skipping G9 and sticking with G8. I've got PLENTY of content to suit my needs for the forseeable future ( creating reference images for drawing graphic novels in 2d software). We'll see what happens when G10 comes out.