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[solved] Rigging Copyright - Clarification Please

katywhitekatywhite Posts: 440
edited September 2023 in The Commons

Hi...don't know if this question is already answered somewhere but I couldn't find it...bit confused on the copyright on the rigging of Daz figures (or any other figure I guess even for like poser etc. too)

So I get this part: like if you make your own character you cannot transfer the rigging from a Daz character to that figure and then give it away or sell it because obviously that's Daz's rigging.

What's confusing me is clothing and wearables. All the tutorials I see at some point transfer the rigging of the character you are making the clothing for to the clothing so it fits properly which makes sense but then if you give this clothing away either by selling or for free wouldn't that also be distributing rigging you don't have copyright to and thus violating some rule somewhere? But I can't see how you can make workable clothing without doing this either.

Not sure if this is a silly question but if anyone could clarify this for me that would be a big help. =)

Post edited by katywhite on

Comments

  • Richard HaseltineRichard Haseltine Posts: 100,948

    This is a license issue - Daz grants users the right to make add-ons using the base rigging, as long as they are items (clothing, hair etc.) that pretty much require the base figure to be useful (though the license does allow Daz to ask for an item to be taken down).

  • RaketeRakete Posts: 91

    What is actually "rigging" in this case? I assume the bone structure and the weight maps? Is the bone structure itself somehow protected? I assume not because otherwise how could all these other sites that sell daz content exist.

  • Matt_CastleMatt_Castle Posts: 2,571

    This is the relevant section of Daz's EULA - https://www.daz3d.com/eula - regarding derivative 3D works:

    Three-Dimensional Works. DAZ wishes to encourage the expansion of the catalog of Content available to its users. Accordingly, User may access, use, copy, and modify the Content to create one or more derived and/or additional three-dimensional works provided that:

    • [section about Editorial licences, not normally relevant]
    • any such derived or additional three-dimensional works are designed to require or encourage the use of Content available through the online DAZ store either by (i) requiring the use of such Content in order for the works to function, or (ii) allowing only limited function when the works are not used in conjunction with Content from the online DAZ store; and
    • upon receipt of a written request from DAZ, User will immediately cease any and all distribution of the derived or additional three-dimensional works User has created from the Content, if DAZ has determined, in its sole discretion, that such additional or derived work (i) is substantially similar to or is a clone of existing Content; (ii) fails to require or encourage the use of Content available through the online DAZ store as described above, or (iii) otherwise violates the provisions of this EULA. 

    This gives a reasonable degree of permission to make your clothing fit Daz's base figures.

    Thing is, Daz know that the value of their figures is heavily in them having a large asset library, so while they've got terms in there they can use to tell you to take the item down, that generally relates to unnecessary use of copyrighted work. For clothing, it is necessary it match the rigging of its intended figure. For a geograft, it is necessary it match vertex positions on its base in order for it to graft. (Something like Cayman Studios' Legacy UV geografts do make quite extensive use of geometry based off the base figures, but it is necessary, and it's possible there's some agreement with Daz about it).

    Creating a shirt by chopping up the Genesis figure's geometry though is not necessary, as a shirt's geometry does not need to match the base figure's to function. (Shape - yes, vaguely. Geometry - no).

  • crosswindcrosswind Posts: 6,986

    In this case, according to the latest EULA, a user's practice could be:

    As for Characters that one makes for distributing or selling:
    - with a Genese Base figure, you sculpt the figure in ZBrush / Blender, etc, or use Merchant Resources like 200 Plus / Shape Shift to shape the figure. Then you just provide the head / body morphs with 'derived rigging' rather than the geometry dsf file that includes the rigging.
    - you sell the character with shaping presets on Rendo, RH, DA or somewhere, and mark 'Genesis XX' is required.
    - if you also provide material preset, etc, you must create the texture maps by yourself or use Merchant Resources.

    As for Clothing / Accessories / Wearables..:
    - almost the same: you just derive / transfer the rigging from the base figure to the items that you make with external software...
    - similarly, you provide the files of geometry, morphs, texture maps, all necessary presets of the content that you made, for distribution or sales.
    - mark 'Genesis XX' is required.

  • FSMCDesignsFSMCDesigns Posts: 12,755

    Rakete said:

    What is actually "rigging" in this case? I assume the bone structure and the weight maps? Is the bone structure itself somehow protected? I assume not because otherwise how could all these other sites that sell daz content exist.

     LOL, If a model is not a genesis model and a standalone figure, the rigging needs to be done by hand, not transferred. Unfortunately, many do it any way and hope they don't get caught. The rigging is considered a "derivitive" work

  • RaketeRakete Posts: 91
    edited September 2023

    FSMCDesigns said:

    Rakete said:

    What is actually "rigging" in this case? I assume the bone structure and the weight maps? Is the bone structure itself somehow protected? I assume not because otherwise how could all these other sites that sell daz content exist.

     LOL, If a model is not a genesis model and a standalone figure, the rigging needs to be done by hand, not transferred. Unfortunately, many do it any way and hope they don't get caught. The rigging is considered a "derivitive" work

    As far as I can tell "rigging" is the the binding of the mesh to the armature. I guess what you're saying is that the transfer tool would create a work that violates daz copyright if distributed without their consent. I was asking about the armature itself though, I assume that if I did my own rigging, "by hand" as you say (for a mesh I created, so that it works with the genesis armature), I can distribute that because that would be a derivative work. And so because the armature is at least implicitly part of anything that I rig, I assume daz at least tolerates that people distribute it on e.g. renderosity.

    Post edited by Rakete on
  • Richard HaseltineRichard Haseltine Posts: 100,948

    Rakete said:

    FSMCDesigns said:

    Rakete said:

    What is actually "rigging" in this case? I assume the bone structure and the weight maps? Is the bone structure itself somehow protected? I assume not because otherwise how could all these other sites that sell daz content exist.

     LOL, If a model is not a genesis model and a standalone figure, the rigging needs to be done by hand, not transferred. Unfortunately, many do it any way and hope they don't get caught. The rigging is considered a "derivitive" work

    As far as I can tell "rigging" is the the binding of the mesh to the armature. I guess what you're saying is that the transfer tool would create a work that violates daz copyright if distributed without their consent. I was asking about the armature itself though, I assume that if I did my own rigging, "by hand" as you say (for a mesh I created, so that it works with the genesis armature), I can distribute that because that would be a derivative work. And so because the armature is at least implicitly part of anything that I rig, I assume daz at least tolerates that people distribute it on e.g. renderosity.

    As has already been said, you can use a derivative of the rigging as necessary for add-ons. If you want to make a new figure you can rig that from scratch (bone placement, weight maps, and any required corrective morphs) but you cannot derive it from any Genesis figure, diectly or indirectly (or, in general, from any other figure not of your own creation). If it is made to work with the Genesis figures then it is a derivative, even if you manage to do it the long way rather than using the Transfer Utility.

  • RaketeRakete Posts: 91
    edited September 2023

    Richard Haseltine said:

    As has already been said, you can use a derivative of the rigging as necessary for add-ons. If you want to make a new figure you can rig that from scratch (bone placement, weight maps, and any required corrective morphs) but you cannot derive it from any Genesis figure, diectly or indirectly (or, in general, from any other figure not of your own creation). If it is made to work with the Genesis figures then it is a derivative, even if you manage to do it the long way rather than using the Transfer Utility.

    Still not getting it. I don't really see why "use a derivative of the rigging as necessary for add-ons" which seems to be ok to do, and "derive it from any Genesis figure, diectly or indirectly" are all that different. How would I use a derivative of the rigging (of Genesis) without deriving it from any Genesis figure? Btw. I am not really asking about legal advice here, I'd probably ask the daz support in any case then.

    That said, I only asked about the armature, the bones, so only the names and where in 3D space those bones are, not jcms, or any mesh, or weight maps, or anything else. That must be "a derivative of the rigging as necessary for add-ons" as far as I can tell because those are part of every figure (aka add-ons) that is being sold on third party sites out there, and to make something thats compatible with genesis 8, I need to have those.

    Post edited by Rakete on
  • richardandtracyrichardandtracy Posts: 5,681

    Imagine you're doing clothing.

    If you make the bone size and shape inside the clothing match that of a G8 character, then it'll fit a G8 character, and that's OK.

    If, however, you make your own competitor to G8 that uses rigging that is the same as G8 so it can use all G8's clothing, and possibly become THE NEXT BEST THING when using G8 rigging, then DAZ are going to get unhappy - not least of which they will have helped you make money & they get no slice of it. If you are making your own character, it needs to be rigged yourself rather than enabeling it to appropriate someone else's clothes.

    Hope that give an idea why.

    Richard

  • katywhitekatywhite Posts: 440

    Whoa! Thank you all for such quick and detailed responses. This has 100% cleared up my confusion about the whole thing, thank you all so much for your time :)

  • RaketeRakete Posts: 91

    richardandtracy said:

    Imagine you're doing clothing.

    If you make the bone size and shape inside the clothing match that of a G8 character, then it'll fit a G8 character, and that's OK.

    If, however, you make your own competitor to G8 that uses rigging that is the same as G8 so it can use all G8's clothing, and possibly become THE NEXT BEST THING when using G8 rigging, then DAZ are going to get unhappy - not least of which they will have helped you make money & they get no slice of it. If you are making your own character, it needs to be rigged yourself rather than enabeling it to appropriate someone else's clothes.

    Alright, I guess thats roughly how I understood it as well. Thanks for the clarification.

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