After update, teeth always have pink fireflies
fearthefailure
Posts: 88
No matter what adjustments I make, the fireflies on the teeth won't go away. I get this hot pink fireflies only on the teeth that I can't explain. They're not hot spots, and there's also enough light in the scene. It's like the software is dying the teeth pink deliberately. They don't look like glitter like normal fireflies, they look like pink splotches; like pink lipstick. No adjustment has changed the location, size, or intensity of these fireflies in anyway. The location is exactly the same, the size is exactly the same, the intensity is exactly the same, and so is the color. I think this may be a bug. Before the update, there were no fireflies on teeth. Now it's only on teeth. There are no fireflies anywhere else in the render; just the teeth.
Does anyone have a workaround for this? Noise degrain filtering causes no change besides reducing my render quality. The fireflies stay but the render looks like an oil painting when it's finished.
Update: I watched the render this time. I have a little more information. It's not like before, when it would remove fireflies and move on. Now it removes a firefly, then adds it back in the next pass. So, it can still identify a firefly and remove that firely, but it will always return that firefly to its previous location on the teeth by the time the render is completed. This is so strange. It's demonstrating that it's totally capable of rendering an image without the fireflies, but it's putting them back in on purpose. Even without the filter, these fireflies didn't exist in the scene before the update. Now they do. I can't wrap my head around it.
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Comments
After updating what? Today's new updat?
I received the update on the 18th or 19th, but essentially, yes. It was an official DAZ Studio update
Which version and release channel (Help>About Daz Studio) and from which previous version, if you can recall?
It looks like 4.21.0.5 is the version I came from and the update I received isn't a version update, but maybe patches. I just noticed the post was from 2022. There were three files sitting in DIM on October 18, but I don't recall what they were named besides them being associated with DAZ Studio and not any of my purchases. I'm not opted-in the beta channel, and I'm not seeing a way to rollback. But with it staining the teeth like this, it's stopped my project in its tracks. It's like strawberry taffy is between the characters' teeth. I can't even edit it out because of the placement.
There's a point in the render at which it removes all of them and the render is high quality. But when I click save to interrupt the render and grab it, it won't save. It makes me wait until it finishes, and by then, it's put them all back in several times over. It re-adds the blotches 100% of the time. I've rendered the same image with new lighting, tone mapping, and rendering settings almost 40 times, and it's always the exact same result. Literally nothing I try outside of closing the mouth and lips stops it from happening, but then I lose the pose I need for the scene. The character is supposed to be smiling while talking.
This happened suddenly and unexpectedly. It was working fine, then after a few renders, it started doing this and won't stop. It's like it's messing with me. I'm crushed!
No worry. Maybe you can attach you scene file in here if possible. We may help to check. Just a bare figure with the problem + all lights in the scene will be good.
BTW, can you see such an issue on a Genesis 8 or 9 base figure?
There were updates for Default Resources, Sceen Builder, and the new templates to go with the beta release of DS. In DIM one of the sort order options in the Installed tab should be Installed Date, which might help figure out what was updated - though I don't think any of the Iray shaders etc. have changed recently.
You can't just click Save while it is rendering. First you have to click Cancel and confirm that you want to cancel. Then you have to type in a name for the saved file. Then the Save button will be available and you can save the render in the state it was when you canceled.
The information provided so far isn't really enough for anyone to diagnose the problem. We don't know what character you are using, what render settings you are using, what files you updated in DIM, etc. More specific information, along with attached images of the problem, and at best a scene file as crosswind suggested, would help a lot.
Genesis 9. I'll come back with it if this next thing doesn't work. It looks like Richard just found the issue for me. But I'm not sure how I ended up there because I didn't consciously join the beta channel.
Holy smokes! That's what these are! And one for interactive lessons as well. I'm not even sure how that one got in there because it only showed me three. I'm guessing it was packaged in with one of them. I didn't consciously join the beta channel, so I don't know why these were pushed my way. But I have the option to uninstall them, so I'm going to try that and circle back with an update. Thank you! I never would've found these in this long list if you hadn't mentioned that.
This is good to know. The save button is clickable for me if I have a file name typed in before I start the render, so I assumed I could use it at any point. Now I'm aware that it should be grayed out. Thank you very much for bringing this to my attention. I'll be back with more information if uninstalling these updates doesn't work. I think Richard figured it out because I finally found them.
Nah... should not be that reason.... The latest Default Resource and Templates are not only for Public Build channel, they're compatibal with General Release. I think most of us have intalled them. I also tested with G8/G9, I found no shader issue or sth. like that.
BTW, you could not find the older version of Default Resource via DIM unless you have a backup of the IM package...
Maybe related;
https://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/655341/unknown-artifact-i-can-t-get-rid-of
Not the older versions, the ones that just hit my device. I found those and uninstalled them. There was some minor improvement, but the issue is ultimately still lingering. I'm running an AMD Ryzen 5 5600G and two Radeon RX 6400's. Are you running an all-AMD build as well?
Here are the four that were installed right before the issue surfaced. Before that, I didn't have it, just hotspots that I wasn't used to seeing manifest as fireflies. Once I saw that I could adjust my lighting temperatures, intensity, and brightness, I was all set until I let these through.
I'll be back with a new render. I have to let that run so you can see. It's only consistently on the teeth. When fireflies show up anywhere else, it's purely because I changed the lighting. When I revert those changes, those other ones go away but the exact same ones on the teeth stay in the same places. The locations are the same, but they're smaller now.
So you don't have Nvidia card but just render with CPU ?
Precisely.
The plot thickens! While experimenting, I altered my lighting. I went from a standard three-point photographic lighting set up that emulated an overhead [set as a head lamp] and a window [the top and bottom on the right to simulate morning]. That original set up worked perfectly. In the first image, I added a fourth light in the center on the right, but I moved it to the front of the character, and angled it towards her. This was to bring more light to her teeth. This had no effect besides what's expected in normal photography settings, but this explains the change to my lighting I had described around the forums before. So, turning that light off won't make any difference to the fireflies. I assure you they're exactly the same with it as they are without it.
These lights are positioned like a large bedroom. 10 ft ceiling, 10 ft from the center of the room is the window. The bed will be positioned in front of this character. I will be rendering the character and placing her into the scene instead of rendering the entire scene. I'm working alone with CPU rendering, so I'm doing this for faster renders. Okay, now for the weird stuff.
In 'angie zoomed,' they completely disappeared. Nothing changed but the zoom and positioning of the camera. In 'angie normal,' they're back. Now, true to what I said, they're in the same positions, but smaller than they were before I uninstalled those updates. They were much larger when those updates were installed. So, there was some improvement. But I can't wrap my head around the this unexpected difference in outcome between views. For both, I clicked the front panel of the cube. We're flat against the front in both images. I didn't touch any of the lights, render settings, tone mapping, or alter the pose in anyway. I didn't adjust anything between those two images other than the zoom / camera position. The fireflies are on the teeth. I'm stumped.
To me it looks like the image has not rendered long enough
Agree with PerttiA, more likely not rendered long enough, for her teeth reflect the metallic color of the lower lip. Well, that's pretty natual with a PBR engine plus certain lighting patterns. You just can see the reflection from a certain angle. Therefore thye're not fireflies and actually you could've avoided that by setting up more optimal lighting patterns with optimal light sources, even tweak the composition as needed.
Besides, I wonder why you used multiple Distant Lights at different positions... I don't mean it's not doable, but just pretty unique, as Translations of a Distant Light doesn't matter at all other than its angles (Rotations)... Especially those 3 lights on the left seemingly have no rotations, not sure why but you could've just used one Distant Light with summing up the Lumen values of three. The lighting effect would be the same...
And if we wanna use a 3-points lighting pattern, we better use mesh lights with setting different properties on each of them. Distant light or point light are parallel lights, not good choices... They could be used as ambient light (as well as HDRI), i.e. a combo with 3-points light.
Okay, here's the crazy thing: I rendered it again so I could capture the logs. The result was the same. But before those updates, this literally didn't happen. The mouth, camera position, and head position didn't change. Only the eyes are closed and the right arm / hand did. With or without that fourth light, I still get these pink splotches only on the teeth.
I forgot to do the top view, but that center light on the right is angled at the character. The other two aren't. I was experimenting with it. Since I'm new to the software, I'm not totally familiar with how the simulated lights translate to real lights, so this is good information to have. I now know that it's a 1:1 translation. I'll make good use of that information. Beyond that, I have one light slightly yellow and one light slightly blue.
So, I should picture the distant light as a wall of natural light [like the sun], not a cone of indoor light placed at a distance. Is that correct?
As for the reflectivity, I'm even more confused. I have metallicity turned off for the mouth, skin, and teeth. I left reflectivity and all of that stock. I wonder what could have happened.
Yeah, I saw that and it looks interesting. I don't know why for the time being but it seems that reflections are different in two renders. You may notice that buckle on the belt.... Or maybe the lights vary a bit, not sure...
I rarely use CPU for rendering. If you can post the scene file in here, we may help to check. That'll be more straight-forward.
730 iterations and under 10 minutes rendertime with rendering done on CPU, no wonder it's not looking perfect.
Disable checking the convergence, set the maximum samples and maximum time to 50000 and let it render for 90 minutes - Are the artifacts still there?
I check the latest Default Resources package, there's no change in iray Uber Base and PBRSkin shaders. And I alos rendered an old scene for comparison (GPU render), found no difference.
I'm more concerned about that pink color... If I could test rendering with both GPU and CPU, probably I may find out the culprit....
The save? I was under the impression that wouldn't work for other users because of some sort of restriction without appropriate licensing. That's not the case?
50 thousand?! People I was learning from had been saying to stay under 5000 iterations and 7200 seconds. I'll be back with that later today.
Nope. You just post the scene file rather than assets. It's almost an ultimaye best practice for troubleshooting.
That's a little over my head still for this application. My guess is to do a duplicate scene save and remove my character from it, then attach that file to the post. Is that the correct understanding, or am I way off? I'm only about three weeks in, so I'm still learning the language around here.
Also, I can't make sense of how this resolved. I did what PerttiA said. I took a snip, and the splotches were starting to appear 18 minutes in. It's weird because they weren't there any time for the first 15 minutes. 90 minutes later, they all moved completely away from the teeth and onto the skin of the face, but they're invisible at the zoom I'm going to be using for my game. I hit the 90 minute mark before I cracked 3000 iterations.
This is almost entirely resolved, but I don't understand the difference between what I had before the issue, and what just happened. It just changed changed back and I can't explain it. I didn't do it like this before but now it's working almost perfectly. Like, I could use this image, and only we would know.
Please walk me through this scene file sharing thing. After all of this, I need to know why this worked. I had rendering quality enabled and had great renders, then I had issues, then I disabled it and the issues went away. So, it worked one way, but now it works the opposite way. What. In. The. World. Is. Going. On? I'm scared.
No no, do not delete the character from the scene or how could we diagnose the issue ? Leave your character and wearables in the scene, as well as all the lights. Attach the duf file down below.
So should we only be seeing these if we have the Beta installed? because AFAIK I have the release version (4.21.0.5) which is the latest I see in DIM. can I uninstall thouse updates if i shouldnt have them?
I can still see some pink dots around the teeth. Well, with Rendering Quality Enable, the engine will 'judge' the rendering quality by convergency rate % but that is not AI. Different environement / lighting conditions may result in different quality, plus you render with CPU...
I never use Rendering Quality option but set samples and time instead.
BTW, normally with GPU rendering, such a simple scene with, let's say, one HDRI + 1 or 2 spotlights may just need 500 - 1000 samples to make a good render. Like what I attached, it was rendered with 1500 samples in 3 minutes, by 3 Nvidia cards. (+ post work)
No you don't need to uninstall those updates. They're not the culprits.