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  • MorpheonMorpheon Posts: 738
    Nyghtfall said:
    Morpheon said:
    The question now is: do you trust DAZ?

    No.

    I canceled my PC+ membership after the beta was announced, uninstalled DS, and moved my content to a backup drive.  Now, I'm just waiting to see what happens while focusing on other interests.

    I'm especially enjoying the money I'm saving not buying new content or upgrading my hardware.  I had $300 saved up for a 980 Ti, and used it on something else instead.

    Precisely what I've done, except that I've momentarily reconsidered and kept my PC+ membership: there are still a few items on my wish-list that work in Poser I'd like to get, and who knows but DAZ might pull its collective head out of its butt in the meantime.

  • lx_2807502lx_2807502 Posts: 2,996
    Morpheon said:
    lx said:

    They COULD do a lot of things, but I'm not about to walk around with my umbrella up every day just in case it rains. If they do try to cut off all other sources of content and lock Studio use to Daz Store only, then many customers will leave, and they'll realise how idiotic that decision was.

    Do you carry a spare tire in your car? A first aid kit? Is there a fire extinguisher in your house? Do you have a life insurance policy? Then you're already thinking ahead to future bad possiblities and planning accordingly. Why is this any different?

    And I've already pointed out that DAZ is likely thinking that older users will be so heavily invested financially in their content libraries that they'll be reluctant to bail on DAZ, regardless of how they may feel about DAZ's actions and policies. (And, of course, if they stick around for the sake of their investments, they'll probably spend more money at some point, becoming more invested and even less inclined to bail, and on and on and on). 

    History is full of bad things that happened largely because people were reluctant to speak out about it and simply went along because it was the easier thing to do, and this is no different.

    I have multiple backups of all of the content that I've bought, along with 4.8 installers. That's the first aid kid.

    I have spoken out about the encryption. I don't like it and I think it'll hurt Daz more than help them. Most of those discussions happened back on the previous threads and the early pages of this one (when the Daz people were actively replying.) I've also said that when Connect-only content does appear, it had better be absolutely amazing to make me want to buy into it instead of sticking with the regular content I have. (And if I do buy it, I'll immediately export it all into normal formats for backup.) But I can't refuse to buy encrypted-only content that doesn't actually exist yet, and when it does, all of my current content isn't suddenly going to break.

    They could likely be thinking anything. But getting mad over what someone might be thinking doesn't make a lot of sense. I've downloaded the beta, tested it all out, told Daz I don't like the changes, and made first aid kits in case it all goes into lockdown. But I'm not going to go buy a $500 piece of software to replace a free one just because of something that might happen.

    It's a much better use of energy to complain about things that are actually happening, like the way flash sales have gone from a standard 60% to 55% now.

  • DAZ_RawbDAZ_Rawb Posts: 817
    Morpheon said:

    Here's what I (and a lot of other people) think is really happening here.

    Piracy IS a legitimate issue.

    Getting new users up and running (and spending money in the store) IS a legitimate issue.

    However, DAZ has also given itself plausible deniability through the constant use of phrases like "no current plans", "for the foreseeable future", etc., and it IS laying a foundation around itself with DAZ Connect and the DRM. Once those are firmly in place and the kinks are ironed out, there's every reason to believe that DAZ will start building the walls higher and thicker, first by closing off unsecured download methods like the ZIPs, and later by making changes so that DS will refuse to use anything that isn't installed through DC. 

    The counter argument is that, under that scheme, users will not be able to install and use content purchased outside of the DAZ marketplace, and that's absolutely correct -- in fact, that's the whole point. Being able to use a wide selection of items from any number of outside sources IS a huge advantage (especially in the beginning when DAZ was trying to build up their user base) and one that would be lost under such a scheme, but we also believe that DAZ now believes it has become so established and dominant that it can try to peel off an increasing number of those outside sales -- not by competing for those sales on the basis that its products are so much cooler, easier to use, packed with features, or attractively priced (those are all judgements that each individual user will have to make for themselves) -- but by constraining the means by which content flows into DS. DAZ is probably thinking that older users will be so financially invested in their content libraries that they'll go along with whatever is thrown at them, and this will simply be normal for new users with no knowledge or experience of how users traditionally purchase, install, configure, and use content.

    Enticements like render engine updates are great things on their own, but they're also the sugar coating that (it's hoped) will allow older users to swallow the DRM bitter pill and to stick around and spend even more money, becoming even further invested and even less inclined to bail.

    This will not happen quickly (in fact, it shouldn't: a gradual transition is crucial to avoid alarming and stampeding your customer base -- let them get used to the bars and chains gradually and learn to be comfortable in them).

    Now, in all fairness, it COULD be that this assesment is completely wrong and that DAZ's stated motivations ARE absolutely true, but the means by which they've attempted to address the issues of piracy and new users are also EXACTLY the same means by which DAZ could (and likely will) implement a closed ecosystem.

    The question now is: do you trust DAZ? I do not believe the old DAZ would have done this (or maybe it's only because at the time, they weren't in a position to do so), but it's apparent to me that this new DAZ will and is.

    I have said it multiple times before, and I will repeat it every single time this little piece of fear, uncertainty and doubt comes up:

    We will not block out third party content providers. From a business standpoint they provide parts of an ecosystem of content. Third party stores (or freebie sites) fill niches in the content library that are vital to our users. Blocking those stores would reduce the amount of available content which would reduce the usefulness of Daz Studio which would then lead to fewer customers on our store.

    Additionally, even if we wanted to block third party content it wouldn't be feasible because third party content and content that is generated locally looks the same to Daz Studio, so we would be blocking any content you create yourself and PA's from generating new content.

    So, in short: 3rd party content is completely safe.

  • Richard HaseltineRichard Haseltine Posts: 102,436

    A distinction needs to be made between speculation and fact, the former should not be presented as the latter. It is not the case that "what I tell you three times is true". Building a chain of if-thens on assumptions that do not match the facts is not taking a precautionary approach in the way that having a first aid kit or fire extinguisher as wards against known, real risks are.

  • Richard HaseltineRichard Haseltine Posts: 102,436
    Morpheon said:
    Richard Haseltine said:
    It's the content, not Connect, that needs to distinguish

    No, it's DAZ Connect that needs to be able to distinguish what is to be encrypted or not, as it's the conduit through which content will pass. Content simply needs to be flagged as to be encrypted or not to be encrypted when using DC, and DC needs to be able to see that and act accordingly. 

    Then yes, Connect in the latest beta can distinguish (though of course all the content we currently have is not Connect-only). which was the rather the point of my post.

  • MorpheonMorpheon Posts: 738
    edited November 2015
    lx said:
     (And if I do buy it, I'll immediately export it all into normal formats for backup.) But I can't refuse to buy encrypted-only content that doesn't actually exist yet, and when it does, all of my current content isn't suddenly going to break.

    You WON'T be able to back up any encrypted content, or rather, you'll only be able to back it up in its encrypted form. Will that encrypted back-up work on your current machine if you make certain upgrades to it? We don't know that yet -- it's a moving target, and DAZ ain't talking except to say that they won't talk about it. Will it work on another machine if your current machine goes bye-bye? More than likely not -- you'll have to download it again through DC (still encrypted, of course). And no one is saying that your current content will break -- that's either a strawman argument or a misread of what has been said.

    They could likely be thinking anything. But getting mad over what someone might be thinking doesn't make a lot of sense.

    Right. Because getting mad at the guys putting chains around something you paid for doesn't make sense, because you don't know what they're thinking, is that it? Screw the practical aspects of what they're actually doing -- let's be more concerned about how they FEEL about what they're doing, right? 

    But I'm not going to go buy a $500 piece of software to replace a free one just because of something that might happen.

    Actually only $180 as an upgrade from Poser Pro 2014, and currently on sale for something like $380 if you don't already have a license. And paying for a license with no encrypted content vs. free software with encrypted content -- yeah, thanks, but I'll pay for the license. Even if Smith Micro tanks, my content isn't locked up, and I don't trust DAZ to unlock their content if they go belly-up -- by the time that happens, I'll have potentially spent a helluva lot more on encrypted content than the mere $180 I spent for the Poser upgrade. (Hell, I can spend more than that -- and have, many times -- on a single purchase at DAZ.)

    It's a much better use of energy to complain about things that are actually happening, like the way flash sales have gone from a standard 60% to 55% now.

    Or, as I've said, you could potentially stop it all now if enough people made enough noise about it, rather than closing your eyes and sticking your fingers in your ears, hoping to God it all works out the way you want it to, as you seem to be doing. 

    Post edited by Morpheon on
  • MorpheonMorpheon Posts: 738
    edited November 2015
    Richard Haseltine said:

    A distinction needs to be made between speculation and fact, the former should not be presented as the latter. It is not the case that "what I tell you three times is true". Building a chain of if-thens on assumptions that do not match the facts is not taking a precautionary approach in the way that having a first aid kit or fire extinguisher as wards against known, real risks are.

    And I already MADE the distinction that what I said WAS speculation, NOT fact, based on the situation as it stands. DAZ claims that what they are doing is one thing, and many of your customers (including myself) are simply telling you this is how we actually see it, why we see it the way we do, and we're asking you to stop now before this gets any worse. The possibility of DAZ implementing DRM would have been flagged as speculation not that long ago, and yet here we are; now we're arguing over how that DRM is actually being implemented.

    Post edited by Morpheon on
  • MorpheonMorpheon Posts: 738
    Richard Haseltine said:
    Then yes, Connect in the latest beta can distinguish (though of course all the content we currently have is not Connect-only). which was the rather the point of my post.

    No, what you said prior was:

    It's the content, not Connect, that needs to distinguish

    Content only needs to be marked as encryptable or not when passing through DC; DC is that agent that actually takes note of this and performs the required action. Now, if you had said something like "content needs to BE distinguished as such-as-such", then THAT would have been factual.

  • araneldonaraneldon Posts: 712

    Not participating in the debate since every point has probably been made several times, but I will repeat what I said in the earlier thread:

    I will not buy anything with DRM, with two exceptions: either the DRM is easily bypassed or the product is sufficiently awesome and unlikely to be available without DRM in the foreseeable future.

  • run4realrun4real Posts: 94
    edited November 2015
    araneldon said:
     
    Kerya said:

    I am sorry - but this IS the thread for voicing opinions about encryption ...

    it was splitted out from the main thread about the new Beta just for this reason.

    So negativity concerning encryption is correctly voiced here.

    It's not being resistant to change (I like Bryce, DazStudio, Poser and Vue - I am not singleminded ...), it is about a change I (and obviously some others) resent.

    What Kerya said earlier above in this post is exactly my point of view as well!

     

    araneldon said:

    Not participating in the debate since every point has probably been made several times, but I will repeat what I said in the earlier thread:

    I will not buy anything with DRM, with two exceptions: either the DRM is easily bypassed or the product is sufficiently awesome and unlikely to be available without DRM in the foreseeable future.

     

    and I also agree with the comment above from araneldon!

     

    Well, though I didn't want argue further regarding the encryption thing first and also because I'm not an experienced forum writer for lack of time and due to rudimentary knowledge of English only, nevertheless I try to further expose my personal concerns regarding an encryption of files, because there are quite a few interesting discussions and point of views here, even if every point has probably made several times. That's the way how democracy works and it's a good practice for my English skills as well. Therefore I'm sorry in advance if it should be a pain to read my comment, hopefully there is something that not has been said already.

    Even if an encryption is intented for internal files only as stated elsewhere, the impact not to be able to work without hassle anymore and a constant dependency solely from one company would be tremendous.

    An earlier statement above - just to make it a bit harder - as the case may be, leads to just a bit harder for the DAZ users to work with their paid content in very general terms!

    There are numerous examples and scenarios of it, why this practice wouldn't be just as simple as it looks at the first glance and it might be a real game changer!

    If you know Vue or even iClone and its counterpart 3DXChange, then you know how painful paid content can be, if you want try to export your content into a third party application.

    As another example how software companies are making their decisions, e-onsoftware did raise the bar for their products from a several hundreds Dollar piece of software in the first days,
    to a several thousand dollar piece of jewelry for the complete application dependent line of products, this means the focus has changed to upscale and if you are not a privileged customer with a high budget it means, either you are willing to play with your paid content and you have to use an outdated versions of the software or better you throw away your paid content.

    I try to explain why I raise concerns over encryption and alike as follows:

    Vue and iClone and whose content are more or less proprietary software and import and export capabilities of paid content are restricted.

    If you try to export your paid content, because you have needs to finish a project with a third party tool, you have to spend a lot of money first for extra software, subscriptions or licenses etc., only to be able to export your already paid content.

    Like other have explained already in this post, if some of the files of your paid content are encrypted and for example you have to edit a file, because you have needs for a project or you would like to fix just a typo, then you wouldn't be able to do this anymore etc.

    It goes without saying, that I immediately stopped to buy anything from those companies when they changed the rules of the game and I will never ever install DS 4.9, DAZ Connect or any future version with encryption and DRM-like systems, as long as DAZ veer toward a DRM and alike.

    I neither use any social network or Google nor any cell phone, smartphone or alike and no application installed on my computers is allowed for any kind of a persistent login or communication, every single IP-connection is controlled by monitoring (e.g. Microsoft Network Monitor) and any kind of advertising in background become immediately blocked by IP or netblock.

    These are only one of the reasons why DAZ connect and alike will never get any chance to be installed on my computers. These taken measures led to a fast, stable, safe and trouble-free computer system since I installed the OS the first time a few years ago.

    I get never any spam and all applications on my computer are stable, although several dozens of 3D applications are installed on the same workstation. Therefore please no new rules!

    A lot of the Global players are able to dictate the rules and are able to change the rules for subscriptions and prices at any time. Great if it by chance this suits your needs and your budget,

    but not so great if you can't afford new prices or technical dependencies, because of an acquisition happened and now you are not able anymore to work with your encrypted and managed $50'000 Dollar content.

    Do you think this is alarmism? No, it isn't! This scenario happened to me in the past and it will happen to others in future as well.

    I don't begrudge to anybody is able now to work with Photoshop and alike, because Adobe introduced a type of subscription a while ago, but there are pitfalls and concerns anyway.

    Adobe for example has different subscriptions for some countries, the same package costs twice as much in my country than in the United States, just another example that shows a development independent of any prediction. A lot of concerns I know. Thanks anyway.

     

     

    Post edited by run4real on
  • Richard HaseltineRichard Haseltine Posts: 102,436

    Exporting to other formats is not affected by the encryption.

    There is no need to for an always on connection - at the moment you need to connect to get the key (one-time per machine), and to get the content or updates that is isntalled via Connect: in future, however, there will be a way to download on another system and transfer the content to the working system so that only the one time registration of the machine to your account is needed. Content, once isntalled, can be backed up and restored on the machine - I think some people have reported doing this after an OS reinstall.

  • nicsttnicstt Posts: 11,715

    Lots of valid points I'm seeing.

    I like being able to voice our fears here, and not somewhere else. Of course everything we write, unless backed up by evidence, is opinion; that doesn't mean it is incorrect. It does mean those concerns are valid to the person making them.

    Like Daz, I have no plans; my plans relate to buying encrypted content; I could change my mind.

    As long as I can use Daz 4.9 without using the cloud facility, or even logging in to it once, then I will likely update to it.

  • nicsttnicstt Posts: 11,715

    It's a much better use of energy to complain about things that are actually happening, like the way flash sales have gone from a standard 60% to 55% now.

    Yeh I noticed, and haven't bought.

  • DAZ_RawbDAZ_Rawb Posts: 817

    I know that some of you are hard set against it, but for those of you with an open mind I'm going to spell out the benefits of 4.9 in all three modes (offline, connect once, online):

     

    4.9 - Never connecting with Daz Connect:

    1. Iray speed increase of about 8-10%
    2. Iray bugfix to sub-surface scattering
    3. 3Delight update, improved performance and bugfixes
    4. Smart Content performance improvements (up to 2-3x if you have a lot of content installed)
    5. Smart Content now has the option to not filter, so you can finally find those clothes to auto-fit even in the smart content panes
    6. Smart Content has additional sorting and filtering options
    7. Other smart content and content library improvements (showing SKU, dates, better linking to the readme pages of the wiki, etc)
    8. Better browsing of content so you can see all files added by a product and jump back easily
    9. Link files can be generated so you can organize on disk without having to move the source files and also allowing you to have multiple copies pointing to the same content without using the extra disk space
    10. New version of opensubdiv
    11. A bunch of other bugfixes
    12. The ability to use your existing content without any changes

    4.9 - Connecting once (and only once):

    1. Allows you to install Daz Connect only content with offline packages and offline authorization files downloaded from your product library
    2. You can use all of your content offline on that same machine indefinitely

    4.9 - Online mode:

    1. You can still install the offline packages with offline authorization files, and those products installed through offline packages get all of the metadata updates and single file downloads that you get from packages installed online
    2. All of your content is still available offline on that same machine indefinitely
    3. Downloading through Daz Connect lets you use a globally available CDN which I have seen 10x improvements in transfer rate vs DIM
    4. Products that aren't marked encrypted will be stored unencrypted on your filesystem
    5. Metadata updates downloaded on the fly (over 1000 products have been updated so far by "The Librarian")
    6. Single file downloads for product updates, so if one 50KB file needs updating it can just fetch that one file instead of having to redownload a complete zip
    7. You can use the store pane to show products filtered in the same sort of way as smart content
    8. You can hide the store pane so it never shows you any filtered list of products
    9. Your product library shows you every product you own and allows you to install them though a double click
    10. You can filter smart content based on what products are installed, owned but not installed, installed but needs updates and are currently installing
    11. You can also uninstall products from inside of the product library

     

    Some of these features aren't fully built in the latest public beta (offline packages is still in private beta, for example) but will be in future betas before the final release. The software development team and product management may add additional features not listed here so watch the change logs and the rease announcement for the final feature list.

  • argel1200argel1200 Posts: 759
    edited November 2015

    DAZ_Rawb, if I understand correctly, if we change hardware we may need to regenerate the user key. And if we are using multiple systems we would have to generate it for each system, and that should allow use on multiple systems. And we could set up a centralized file location for these systems and each system's user key would be able to read in the content. All correct?  And generating a new user key is an automated process? Thanks in advance!

    Post edited by argel1200 on
  • PendraiaPendraia Posts: 3,598
    DAZ_Rawb said:

    I know that some of you are hard set against it, but for those of you with an open mind I'm going to spell out the benefits of 4.9 in all three modes (offline, connect once, online):

     

    4.9 - Never connecting with Daz Connect:

    1. Iray speed increase of about 8-10%
    2. Iray bugfix to sub-surface scattering
    3. 3Delight update, improved performance and bugfixes
    4. Smart Content performance improvements (up to 2-3x if you have a lot of content installed)
    5. Smart Content now has the option to not filter, so you can finally find those clothes to auto-fit even in the smart content panes
    6. Smart Content has additional sorting and filtering options
    7. Other smart content and content library improvements (showing SKU, dates, better linking to the readme pages of the wiki, etc)
    8. Better browsing of content so you can see all files added by a product and jump back easily
    9. Link files can be generated so you can organize on disk without having to move the source files and also allowing you to have multiple copies pointing to the same content without using the extra disk space
    10. New version of opensubdiv
    11. A bunch of other bugfixes
    12. The ability to use your existing content without any changes

    4.9 - Connecting once (and only once):

    1. Allows you to install Daz Connect only content with offline packages and offline authorization files downloaded from your product library
    2. You can use all of your content offline on that same machine indefinitely

    4.9 - Online mode:

    1. You can still install the offline packages with offline authorization files, and those products installed through offline packages get all of the metadata updates and single file downloads that you get from packages installed online
    2. All of your content is still available offline on that same machine indefinitely
    3. Downloading through Daz Connect lets you use a globally available CDN which I have seen 10x improvements in transfer rate vs DIM
    4. Products that aren't marked encrypted will be stored unencrypted on your filesystem
    5. Metadata updates downloaded on the fly (over 1000 products have been updated so far by "The Librarian")
    6. Single file downloads for product updates, so if one 50KB file needs updating it can just fetch that one file instead of having to redownload a complete zip
    7. You can use the store pane to show products filtered in the same sort of way as smart content
    8. You can hide the store pane so it never shows you any filtered list of products
    9. Your product library shows you every product you own and allows you to install them though a double click
    10. You can filter smart content based on what products are installed, owned but not installed, installed but needs updates and are currently installing
    11. You can also uninstall products from inside of the product library

     

    Some of these features aren't fully built in the latest public beta (offline packages is still in private beta, for example) but will be in future betas before the final release. The software development team and product management may add additional features not listed here so watch the change logs and the rease announcement for the final feature list.

    Thanks for this list...I haven't upgraded yet but as I don't normally do betas that's not an indication of what I'm currently thinking. 

    I will probably upgrade when it is released as an official build but I'm unlikely to use the Daz Connect options.

    I love DS and I'm not going to stop using it. At the moment I am continuing to buy products from here. I'm not sure about PC and renewing but as that decision hasn't come up yet I can afford to wait before working that out.

    I think it would be a bad move to create a closed ecosystem as the freebie system is what helps new vendors to develop and grow. This would do no one any good...so I think it is extremely unlikely.

    I'm not worried about subscriptions services for the moment...so for me that's a non issue.

    In regards to encrypted products downloaded through DC, I think this would hurt end users and their access to files more than it would hurt pirates. I suppose that will come down to how much it impacts on users ability to edit the product files. So for this aspect I will maintain my wait and see position...

    Thanks to the person who posted about Krita...looks interesting.

     

  • jpb06tjpb06t Posts: 272
    Pendraia said:

    Thanks to the person who posted about Krita...looks interesting.

    Many Photoshop users share your interest <MUHAHAHA>. Glad that you liked it; I have started trying it myself and just the tiled painting mode (which, according to youtube comments PS lacks laugh) is worth the "price".

  • NathNath Posts: 2,848
    jpb06t said:
    Pendraia said:

    Thanks to the person who posted about Krita...looks interesting.

    Many Photoshop users share your interest <MUHAHAHA>. Glad that you liked it; I have started trying it myself and just the tiled painting mode (which, according to youtube comments PS lacks laugh) is worth the "price".

    Yeah, Krita looks interesting. Now all I need is an alternative to InDesign and it's goodbye Adobe:) Best not to derail this thread though :)

  • lx_2807502lx_2807502 Posts: 2,996
    edited November 2015
    Nath said:
    jpb06t said:
    Pendraia said:

    Thanks to the person who posted about Krita...looks interesting.

    Many Photoshop users share your interest <MUHAHAHA>. Glad that you liked it; I have started trying it myself and just the tiled painting mode (which, according to youtube comments PS lacks laugh) is worth the "price".

    Yeah, Krita looks interesting. Now all I need is an alternative to InDesign and it's goodbye Adobe:) Best not to derail this thread though :)

    Alternative to Illustrator, please.

    Krita looks interesting and the tiled mode is going to keep it installed on my computer, but it's still not close to being a Photoshop replacement (unless you only use Photoshop to paint things, I guess. But in that case, why are you buying Photoshop instead of Manga Studio which is much cheaper and preferred by many artists?)

    Post edited by lx_2807502 on
  • jpb06tjpb06t Posts: 272
    Nath said:

    Yeah, Krita looks interesting. Now all I need is an alternative to InDesign and it's goodbye Adobe:) Best not to derail this thread though :)

    It is no derailing, it is a way to show DAZ representatives that nothing is set in stone and that pissed enough people look around and find... "options". For more info, ask him 

  • AdemnusAdemnus Posts: 744

    " The type of pirate we are focusing on is two fold, the casual pirates who upload to torrents is one. The bigger one is people who create multiple fraudulent accounts per day, commit credit card fraud to purchase content, and then put those up on their own sites on servers operated over seas where we have no legal recourse and sell subscription services to it or are essentially "pirate for hire" where someone makes a request for a product and they fraudulently purchase from a content site and give it to you for a small fee."

     

    Forgive my extreme naivete but I didn't even know such things were going on with DAZ products. I don't know enough about encryption to join the debate but I will say I support DAZ in their efforts to maintain their and their PAs' copyright protection. I know some poeple think they are entitled to everyone's labors for free, but they're not.

  • lx_2807502lx_2807502 Posts: 2,996

    As much as I hate it, wouldn't the better answer for that be to simply do what Rendo does and delay all first time purchases until the card is checked and cleared as being okay? Or does it take much longer to know whether it was fraudulent?

    It was annoying for me because the notice that I'd have to wait on first purchase wasn't particularly obvious, and it might be a bit offputting for first time buyers who want a thing nownownow, but once you've bought one thing everything runs smoothly. If you're that bothered about these mysterious shady business then could it not be a solution?

  • run4realrun4real Posts: 94
    edited November 2015
    lx said:
    Nath said:
    jpb06t said:
    Pendraia said:

    Thanks to the person who posted about Krita...looks interesting.

    Many Photoshop users share your interest <MUHAHAHA>. Glad that you liked it; I have started trying it myself and just the tiled painting mode (which, according to youtube comments PS lacks laugh) is worth the "price".

    Yeah, Krita looks interesting. Now all I need is an alternative to InDesign and it's goodbye Adobe:) Best not to derail this thread though :)

    Alternative to Illustrator, please.

    Krita looks interesting and the tiled mode is going to keep it installed on my computer, but it's still not close to being a Photoshop replacement (unless you only use Photoshop to paint things, I guess. But in that case, why are you buying Photoshop instead of Manga Studio which is much cheaper and preferred by many artists?)

     

    Depending on your needs the Corel Draw Suits or Serif DrawPlus are very competitive in price given considering their high quality as a low priced alternative to Illustrator, although not free of course. (Discounted prices at the moment)

     

    DAZ_Rawb said:

    I know that some of you are hard set against it, but for those of you with an open mind I'm going to spell out the benefits of 4.9 in all three modes (offline, connect once, online):

     

     

    This list looks great and the new features and improvements are very welcome of course, without the hassle of encrypted files, DAZ Connect and a DRM-like closed ecosystem, it looks even more like a great list! Well, I guess this point of view can also be called an open mind, isn't it? Anyway, there are always pros and cons, unfortunately I tend to see more the cons in this particular case, even with an Iray speed increase of 8-10% and this is a strong argument.

    Post edited by run4real on
  • lx_2807502lx_2807502 Posts: 2,996
    edited November 2015

    CorelDraw seems a bit expensive and considerably more than I pay for Illustrator, but DrawPlus might be good. I'll check them out in more detail later, thanks.

    See this is what I don't think people are understanding about 4.9 with all the complaints over the last few pages.

    You can use 4.9 with the exact same library you have now, install content the same way as you do now, never ever go online, close the shop tab and never open it again (it won't refresh when you aren't logged in and/or it's minimised.) Connect content won't be encrypted but you can completely ignore that feature too if you want.

    The only thing 4.9 does in regard to encryption is make it possible for the program to download and run it. Whether encryption turns out to be terrible or not (I'm siding with the latter) it really has no baring on 4.9. It's not like there's an upgrade fee, either. 

    Post edited by lx_2807502 on
  • run4realrun4real Posts: 94
    edited November 2015
    lx said:

    CorelDraw seems a bit expensive and considerably more than I pay for Illustrator, but DrawPlus might be good. I'll check them out in more detail later, thanks.

    See this is what I don't think people are understanding about 4.9 with all the complaints over the last few pages.

    You can use 4.9 with the exact same library you have now, install content the same way as you do now, never ever go online, close the shop tab and never open it again (it won't refresh when you aren't logged in and/or it's minimised.) Connect content won't be encrypted but you can completely ignore that feature too if you want.

    The only thing 4.9 does in regard to encryption is make it possible for the program to download and run it. Whether encryption turns out to be terrible or not (I'm siding with the latter) it really has no baring on 4.9. It's not like there's an upgrade fee, either. 

    The time will tell, if all these complaints and opinions are justified or not, for my personal part I have to say, a burnt child dreads the fire, but I think at the end who decides? Yes, the user by oneself! and the user also will decide if it's worth to work with 4.9 and if the dreams come true (or nightmares), I guess regardless of anyone's opinion anyway.

    Aside from the 4.9 theme I have another question, isn't BlackFriday a shopping day with 70% off minimum?  smiley

     

    Post edited by run4real on
  • starionwolfstarionwolf Posts: 3,670

    I just hope that the thieves don't post their keys, Product Authorization files and Daz Connect Packages online for other people to use.  Thanks for the info.

  • nicsttnicstt Posts: 11,715
    edited November 2015
    DAZ_Rawb said:

    I know that some of you are hard set against it, but for those of you with an open mind I'm going to spell out the benefits of 4.9 in all three modes (offline, connect once, online):

     

    4.9 - Never connecting with Daz Connect:

    1. Iray speed increase of about 8-10%
    2. Iray bugfix to sub-surface scattering
    3. 3Delight update, improved performance and bugfixes
    4. Smart Content performance improvements (up to 2-3x if you have a lot of content installed)
    5. Smart Content now has the option to not filter, so you can finally find those clothes to auto-fit even in the smart content panes
    6. Smart Content has additional sorting and filtering options
    7. Other smart content and content library improvements (showing SKU, dates, better linking to the readme pages of the wiki, etc)
    8. Better browsing of content so you can see all files added by a product and jump back easily
    9. Link files can be generated so you can organize on disk without having to move the source files and also allowing you to have multiple copies pointing to the same content without using the extra disk space
    10. New version of opensubdiv
    11. A bunch of other bugfixes
    12. The ability to use your existing content without any changes

    4.9 - Connecting once (and only once):

    1. Allows you to install Daz Connect only content with offline packages and offline authorization files downloaded from your product library
    2. You can use all of your content offline on that same machine indefinitely

    4.9 - Online mode:

    1. You can still install the offline packages with offline authorization files, and those products installed through offline packages get all of the metadata updates and single file downloads that you get from packages installed online
    2. All of your content is still available offline on that same machine indefinitely
    3. Downloading through Daz Connect lets you use a globally available CDN which I have seen 10x improvements in transfer rate vs DIM
    4. Products that aren't marked encrypted will be stored unencrypted on your filesystem
    5. Metadata updates downloaded on the fly (over 1000 products have been updated so far by "The Librarian")
    6. Single file downloads for product updates, so if one 50KB file needs updating it can just fetch that one file instead of having to redownload a complete zip
    7. You can use the store pane to show products filtered in the same sort of way as smart content
    8. You can hide the store pane so it never shows you any filtered list of products
    9. Your product library shows you every product you own and allows you to install them though a double click
    10. You can filter smart content based on what products are installed, owned but not installed, installed but needs updates and are currently installing
    11. You can also uninstall products from inside of the product library

     

    Some of these features aren't fully built in the latest public beta (offline packages is still in private beta, for example) but will be in future betas before the final release. The software development team and product management may add additional features not listed here so watch the change logs and the rease announcement for the final feature list.

    I'm one of the ones who is dead against it; my feelings over DRM, and how easy it is to get burnt, coupled with some actions earlier in the month made me lump Daz in with all the other companies; to temper that, however, is the open discussion this thread allows, and coupled with the always great customer service.

    So I'm a little optomistic.

    Maybe at worst Daz 4.9's IRAY boost is very welcome. I don't, however, see myself buying encrypted content, unless the price is rediculously low... Who knows then. The problem is, for myself, and perhaps others, is there isn't a way to test purchase one item; that isn't our concern. Daz find themselves, I can accept, between a rock and a hard place; pirates do harm, how much is hard to quantify, but certainly some. DRM, equally does harm: the same extent? No definitive research can answer that I believe; neither if it's greater or to a lesser amount.

    So I can understand that you hope to prevent some of the loss; I'm a writer, so I appreciate that.

    Like a number of folks (from what I understand) we'll have to wait and watch, and then make a choice when the encripted content finally arrives.

    Post edited by nicstt on
  • will2powerwill2power Posts: 270

    I'm not really inclined to purchase encrypted content. To be perfectly honest, my reasons are technical in nature. I work in IT, so for me this is something I deal with every day. I don't care for it, and I don't want to add yet another thing that can go wrong to what already is a complex and delicate operating platform. I mean no offense to the content creators --my views don't have anything to do with the piracy problems they face. If the option to purchase an unencrypted model exists, then I will continue to purchase products, but if they don't then well let's just say there are other options like spending the time converting the models that I use for use in another program. Encryption is a joke and everyone knows that. no matter how much you encrypt files, there are people just as smart and a lot of times even more capable of decrypting them. 

    Every time someone says DRM, I cringe because I know what comes next. I purchased this thing and now I can't get in it because it says my encryption key is <<insert error message here>> or I purchased content, had to reinstall my operating system and now it says that I have it installed on too many machines or <<insert other error message here that insinuates you're trying to pirate something you purchased here>>. And then --DAZ studio performance goes down because now you're trying to uses twenty encrypted files in a scene, or you get errors because you're using unencrypted content with encrypted content.  For all the assurances the the contrary, what I know from experience is that it's going to end up being a nightmare and hassle to us the users. I'm not in favor of it, and I don't want a cloud application horning in on my system resources for something that is INVASIVE to my day to day computing operations. I don't want DAZ connected to my machine. I'm perfectly capable of maintaining my own runtimes and if it's not going to be an option, then it's just another reason to move away from the platform. 

     

  • Richard HaseltineRichard Haseltine Posts: 102,436
    edited November 2015
    will2power said:

    I'm not really inclined to purchase encrypted content. To be perfectly honest, my reasons are technical in nature. I work in IT, so for me this is something I deal with every day. I don't care for it, and I don't want to add yet another thing that can go wrong to what already is a complex and delicate operating platform. I mean no offense to the content creators --my views don't have anything to do with the piracy problems they face. If the option to purchase an unencrypted model exists, then I will continue to purchase products, but if they don't then well let's just say there are other options like spending the time converting the models that I use for use in another program. Encryption is a joke and everyone knows that. no matter how much you encrypt files, there are people just as smart and a lot of times even more capable of decrypting them. 

    Every time someone says DRM, I cringe because I know what comes next. I purchased this thing and now I can't get in it because it says my encryption key is <<insert error message here>> or I purchased content, had to reinstall my operating system and now it says that I have it installed on too many machines or <<insert other error message here that insinuates you're trying to pirate something you purchased here>>. And then --DAZ studio performance goes down because now you're trying to uses twenty encrypted files in a scene, or you get errors because you're using unencrypted content with encrypted content.  For all the assurances the the contrary, what I know from experience is that it's going to end up being a nightmare and hassle to us the users. I'm not in favor of it, and I don't want a cloud application horning in on my system resources for something that is INVASIVE to my day to day computing operations. I don't want DAZ connected to my machine. I'm perfectly capable of maintaining my own runtimes and if it's not going to be an option, then it's just another reason to move away from the platform. 

    To reiterate a point from earlier, there is no requirement to be on-line to use DS. Once we have the off-line packages for installation the system needs to connect only once to get the account key, which it is apparently possible to back-up against system reinstallations. While it has been said that there are limits on the number of machines that can have a key, no-one has yet reproted running into a problem relating to that (though the limits haven't stated, and it has been said they may be subject to change). We don't yet know (from user-reports, Daz is obviously not planning to reveal this information which could be used to try to fool the system) what kinds of hardware change will trigger a call for a new key.

    Post edited by Richard Haseltine on
  • will2powerwill2power Posts: 270
    Richard Haseltine said:

    To reiterate a point from earlier, there is no requirement to be on-line to use DS. Once we have the off-line packages for installation the system needs to connect only once to get the account key, which it is apparently possible to back-up against system reinstallations. While it has been said that there are limits on the number of machines that can have a key, no-one has yet reproted running into a problem relating to that (though the limits haven't stated, and it has been said they may be subject to change). We don't yet know (from user-reports, Daz is obviously not planning to reveal this information which could be used to try to fool the system) what kinds of hardware change will trigger a call for a new key.

    Richard, I don't doubt the intent, but it's been my experience that what you are hoping for and what actually occurs when it's rolled out are apples and oranges. A year from now, this conversation might be different, but I remain skeptical because I know better than to expect things of this type to go smoothly. You can't go a day on this board without people expressing their frustrations at how the software operates --so my sense of optimism that it will be a smooth and welcome implementation have been crushed by reality. We have enough issues to deal with, crashes and all the unexpected features of DAZ studio, and this is just adding yet another thing that can go wrong. 

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