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Read this on redit concerning Daz A.I.

Silver DolphinSilver Dolphin Posts: 1,606
in Daz AI Studio

From redit:

WaterPriest

•1mo ago

""Nope. Now when I say I’m using Daz, I’m going to have to explain to people that I’m not using the A.I. version of Daz, and I’m hand crafting images. This is kind of undermining your users. We’re here to make incredible scenes that we have in our head. Not some A.I. doing the creative part for us.

This is a pretty common opinion in the art community at the moment, so I’m surprised to see Daz trying to do this. It just makes no sense.

What Daz SHOULD be doing is making Daz Studio more stable. Give us more polished tools. Recycle that A.I. stuff and incorporate it as optional tools in some way. Maybe make Animate, and other animation features easier to use. Basically, I would just love to see the software itself run smoother.

Do yourselves a favor, and scrap this A.I. nonsense, it’s not worth trying to force it for a quick cash grab""

Here are my thourghs on Daz A.I. It is just a tool for lazy people(hey I'm one too LOL), but this tool should not be used to create images for you but to help color the scene or create backgrounds or help with lighting and texturing. Lets face it Iray is too hard to use with expensive Nividia cards that are dying because they were never designed to be used to render or animate but gaming. I would like Daz A.I. to just let me pose the assets and render them in Filament or OpenGL in grey and the Daz A.I. takes care of the lighting and shading of the charcters. If you don't like the results give more precise instructions on lighting and coloring. Just my 2 cents.

Comments

  • linvanchenelinvanchene Posts: 1,382
    edited May 5

    The creative part happens in your mind when you formulate the idea.

    After that you use different types of tools to make your idea visible to others.

     

    A long process of accepting the situation

    I understand the sentiment. Customers spent years learning how to use 3D tools.

    For me the worry about what is happening started in summer 2023.

    It took my about 6 months to come to terms with it.

    Finally in December 2023 after lenghty discussions I came to the conclusion that me ignoring AI is not going to prevent the rest of the world embracing it.

     

     

    They either like the image or they don't

    To regular people outside of 3D communities it does not matter how an image is created.

    Either they like the scene, the characters, the idea, the color scheme.

    Or they do not like it.

     

    edited: removed several parts to keep this post at a "reasonable" length

     

     

    The common ground is to provide solutions to create images.

    It will take some time to see how this develops...

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    Post edited by linvanchene on
  • FSMCDesignsFSMCDesigns Posts: 12,751

    Silver Dolphin said:

    . I would like Daz A.I. to just let me pose the assets and render them in Filament or OpenGL in grey and the Daz A.I. takes care of the lighting and shading of the charcters. If you don't like the results give more precise instructions on lighting and coloring. Just my 2 cents.

     After using the DAZ AI for awhile now, I have to agree with this. I have been upscaling and enhancing my DAZ renders with other AI tools for awhile now and getting great results so i think that DAZ should focus on that instead of the actual art generation part.  For one, it will still have users wanting to purchase content instead of just generating it with AI.

    Here is an example, I spent about an hour setting up this scene for a longer story. I liked the results i got, but enhancing it with AI made it go to another level with the details that AI added

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  • linvanchenelinvanchene Posts: 1,382
    edited May 5

    About AI features for Daz 3D Studio

    For one, it will still have users wanting to purchase content instead of just generating it with AI.

    I have acquired licenses for 14'000+ 3D models that I can use as img2img reference and ControlNet input for local AI Generators.

    My current motivation to spend more money on licensed 3D assets is quite low.

    • I support the requirement to pay a license fee to use products commercially.
    • I am still interested to spend money on a license to use the likeness of a character if I find the face appealing.
    • I may spend money on LoRA or checkpoints if I can use them in a local user interface for Stable Diffusion (SDXL, SD3)
    • I plan to keep the Daz AI Studio subscription active as long as it generates images that are in a style that appeals to me.

     

    However, I am not (anymore) willing to spend money on

    • Editorial Licenses
    • low detail 3D assets that look similar to the version created for the last generation of figures.
    • environments that cannot be properly adjusted to navigate them in a real-time viewport

     

    What Daz SHOULD be doing is making Daz Studio more stable.

     

    The core issue of Daz 3D Studio remains that it never received a significant update to deal with large scale scenes.

    Unreal Engine has Level of Detail (LOD) and Nanite features to automatically adjust the resolution of 3D and texture assets depending on their scene position in real-time.

    Until this core issue is addressed the kind of scenes you can navigate in the existing Daz 3D Studio are somewhat limited in comparison.

     

     

    edited: removed several parts to keep this essay somewhat readable.

     

    What is needed at this point is opinions from other customers...

    What do you like about Daz AI Studio?

    What are you hoping for?

     

    Get in touch with new potential customers outside this forum

    Daz may need

    • to get in touch with people in other dedicated AI communities
    • make surveys 
    • figure out the needs of  potential new customers
    • find out how much money people are willing to spend.

     

    Post edited by linvanchene on
  • wolf359wolf359 Posts: 3,826
    edited May 5

    I think Daz should consider a 360 degree AI generated sky box creator for quick environments , like 
    Blockade labs, but not subscription based as BL has done. 
     


    Not some A.I. doing the creative part for us.
    This is a pretty common opinion in the art community at the moment

    From what I have seen, the “common opinion” in the traditional Art community is that anyone who uses canned 3D content where you can just click load & render  an image
    of the exact same Daz or poser model ,sets and lights, that anyone else can.
    Then you are NOT an Artist you are a “ “Product Assembly tech” at best.cheeky

    I can model and rig & hand animate my own characters but I use alot of prefab rig & mocap for expedience sake.

    TOOLs are TOOLSwink
    https://www.blendernation.com/2020/04/29/behind-the-scenes-sci-fi-armor/

    So IMHO Daz studio users need to be very careful  about who they accuse of not having true artistic talent… all things considered.devil

     

    Post edited by wolf359 on
  • cain-xcain-x Posts: 186

    Agree with points here. I feel like the AI implementation with DAZ today is just to get their message out there that their app is "AI" capable and it brings clicks and traffic... which is fine. For long time users, it does feel like you're moving resources away from refining the current DAZ Studio (non-AI, see the confusion?).

    AI really should be ancillary, not the end solution.

  • PadonePadone Posts: 3,684

    I went some deeper into AI. As I understand it it may be possible to use AI for storytelling getting consistent characters and environments across multiple images, but you need to train your own LORAs. Making effective LORAs is hard especially for captioning, and takes a lot of time. In the end using a 3D app is easier.

    As I understand it, DAZ is trying to provide LORAs for the DAZ content, that anyone could do by himself anyway having the time and some AI hardware. But again LORAs are hard to control so a 3D app fits better.

  • wolf359wolf359 Posts: 3,826
    edited May 12

    As I understand it, DAZ is trying to provide LORAs for the DAZ content, that anyone could do by himself anyway having the time and some AI hardware. But again LORAs are hard to control so a 3D app fits better.

    @Padone
    People well steeped in the Midjourney and other user groups also have tools to literally “pose” and “Repose”their characters.
    combine that with “in painting” and yes you have alot of control but yeah, it is very labor intensive for sure.
     

    However what people  from "traditional" creative communities fail to understand is that generative AI does not have to steal people away from those  more established ecosystems of visual art creation.
    (even though that is happening to a degree)cool


    Generative AI is building it’s own NEW user demographic largely from laypeople who have never used a 3D program and thus do not know or care how “easy” it would be to do something similar in a 3D app like Daz studio or Poser or Blender etc.

    Such people have ZERO prior investments in software or years spent learning of other methods. thus ZERO emotional attachment that would cause them to lament  such software & methonds being supplanted by AI.

    And for those who say “but people will always want the human touch blah blah”
    My responses is yeah....maybe in some minority cases,indecision


    But that will not deter the growing use of generative AI by the majority masses
    as it becomes a ubiquitous part of the visual Art landscape in the coming years.

    Post edited by wolf359 on
  • linvanchenelinvanchene Posts: 1,382
    edited May 14

    But that will not deter the growing use of generative AI by the majority masses

    r/Daz3D: 9100 members; 3 online

     

    r/StableDiffusion: 515'000 members; 242 online

     

    I refrain from posting speculative numbers about the kind of income those two different target audiences could potentially generate for Daz.

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    Post edited by linvanchene on
  • algovincianalgovincian Posts: 2,610

    wolf359 said:

    Daz studio AI uses their own internal content for training Data cheeky

    My understanding is that this is true for the LoRAs, but not for the base model. Somebody please correct me if this is not the case.

    - Greg

  • linvanchenelinvanchene Posts: 1,382
    edited May 14

    Daz studio AI uses their own internal content for training Data 

    My understanding is that this is true for the LoRAs, but not for the base model. Somebody please correct me if this is not the case.

     

    base model: SDXL; trained by Stability AI with an adjusted dataset by LAION.

    checkpoint: Daz AI Studio; trained with images owned by Daz (actual numbers unreleased)

    LoRA: Victoria 9, Michael 9, Angela 9, Wang 9; trained with images owned by Daz (actual numbers unrelased)

     

    Some companies provide datasets which include billions of images.

    Other companies train base models on adjusted versions of the datasets.

    The model weights of open-source base models are released to the AI community.

    Checkpoints fine-tune the model weights with further training to excel in a specific style (photorealistic, 3D, anime) or topic (real-world, fantasy, science fiction).

    LoRA (Low-rank adaptation) use an even smaller set of images to influence the generation process in very specific areas (likeness of characters, clothing, backgrounds, poses with props).

     

    ###

    ethical concerns about datasets and base model training

    At the time of writing the practice of gathering publicly available data from the internet to train generative AI has not been found illegal by any court of law.

    Companies have reacted to concerns and adjusted the datasets used for base model training.

     

    ethical concerns about checkpoint and LoRA training

    The origin of the images used for checkpoints and LoRA released by individuals is often unknown.

    Daz using their own images to train their checkpoints and LoRA is a huge advantage for those looking for verified AI solutions.

    Post edited by linvanchene on
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