It's just too bad . . .
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You're absolutely right. So why bother anymore? Most DS users just can't seem to comprehend our issues and try to make us feel guilty for asking for the same treatment we've had for years and that a lot of us have paid to have for years. Daz is apparently not concerned with how many long time spending customers have cancelled their memberships, the ones in the process of doing so, or the ones that barely spend here anymore if at all. Before anyone says again that the PA's choose what to create, we get that, but if Daz really does want our money why can't they commission Gen4 products from some of the PA's that do still want to make Gen 4 products?
I suppose we should just cling to this "Poser users will be in heaven" remark for the next however many months until we most likely get an update to the exporter with 1 or 2 less clicks.
We've all been ridiculously patient waiting for things to even out around here, and yes, it is the same old story.
I find it quite interesting that people are saying it is easier to make content for genesis then for previous{poser friendly} DAZ figures.
Well duh, the new tools in studio 4 pro were specifically designed to make, making content for genesis easy. If DAZ had put the effort in to the same tool for poser/previous DAZ figures, it would be as easy.
Me? I'm out because I can no longer deal with DAZ's consistently broken apps.
Due to my new "lurking" state at DAZ, again I come late to the party. :-(
I dropped my PC membership quite a while ago.
I have a copy of Studio4 and a few of the basic Genesis characters and fewer Genesis clothes but my well intentioned experiments with it on a secondary computer (of sufficient power) were unimpressive so I've not adopted the Studio4/Genesis paradigm. I still do all my real work with Studio3A, a few of the basic plug-ins and my vast library of people, places & things from "Millenium Man" days(i.e. Michael1) through Michael4. For me there is absolutely no advantage to moving on to Studio4 & Genesis.
Someone early in the thread mentioned DAZ's wacky priorities where new & shiny outweigh reliability & documentation. I resonated with that observation.
DAZ always seems to think that new is better. Well, yes it can be, but I don't think DAZ carried it out well.
The new store site, especially the account related pages is such a step backwards. :-(
Why is it that I keep hearing a song in my head? Something about somebody leaving a cake out in the rain?
I don't think that I can take it!!! 8-o
I used to see DAZ as a company with great promise. A company that would shake off it's mom & pop beginnings and evolve into a major player. However, I've finally realized that I now believe that there will never be a proper document for any of DAZ's products ever again. Nor will their product suite apps all work together seamlessly, nor will Studio or even Carrara transition to a product reliable enough to be adopted by professional organizations with mucho $$$ depending on them. I just don't see it happening.
Studio and Carrara, and even the old man himself "Bryce" will remain cool toys for little boys (and girls). So, if you can accept that then all is well. When your expectations aren't met, get happy by lowering your expectations.
A prodigy of "you may be a redneck if."
If you paid full price for daz4 in the earlier adopters program and then it was given away a 2 months later and found that it was is not compatible with all the programs and models you have previously enjoyed and used, and then get blasted for your opinons on said program
Then you might feel like Daz3d.com has pooped on you.
you are right about this.
daz would make more sells of stuff if it works in both programs.
but it's up to SmithMicro to make Genesis features possible in poser...
Daz can't change that! Only poser developers can do it.
about Renderosity...
i can give you 100's of links of files where i just read this...
This product is created for *Poser Only* !
This product has been tested in poser 7, 8, PP2010 & PP2012
This product has not been tested in DAZ Studio
No Daz Studio materials were created for this product the material need surface room adjustments in DAZ Studio
Dazstudio 4 is Free, so it can't be no excuse for the PA creators to test this and see the product works in both programs!
that 's not what i call support for both programs...
again if it's poser everything 's fine, if it's only daz everybody freaks out!
you are right about this,
DS4.5 is and feels only a prerpetual Alpha software with missing features, that 's one of the reasons i think daz made it free...
another one is marketing to spread the word Genesis and it's content.
a mistake was, first ask $$$... (developers cost $$$, we all know)
loyal daz customers lost money on the pro version. (there where refunds options, all fine about that!)
but, i still hope daz make this right and give all loyal pro daz users, that didn't go for refunds with the 4 pro $$$ version a free or very cheap upgrade to the "real pro studio 5".
studio 5 can't excist without a well working IK/FK system, animationtools, dynamic hair & dynamic cloth creator (optitex, MD, or new dazcloth engine), gizmodo face generationtool, a fast render engine (octane, or else fast)
without above features missing it sounds there can be no studio 5!
Features that would bang some thunder and lightning by poser universe.
ROFLMBO... sorry, but this just struck me as hysterically funny! Since when did DAZ test anything "all to hell" before releasing it? More likely they would rush it out to the store, so they could try and quiet the complaints. Oh, and so the customers who purchased it could beta test it all to hell. lol, Sorry, still giggling. If your join date is correct, you've been here long enough to know better. But thanks for the giggle.
Only if they hadn't learned. I'm hoping they did.
I take that you make content for DAZ Studio and Poser? Because that's the only way you would know.
I've made pretty exaggerated characters in both (even sold one as a PA here at DAZ). If you know the techniques for the two products (PoserPro 2012 and DS4) it has been about the same. DS4 as a few more tools built in, Poser has a range of tools as Pythons. SR3 just added GoZ, and before that you needed some scripts from Colorcurvature. DS4 probably has slightly better built-in mechanisms for packaging content without violating copyright (IMHO), but alternative tools exist in the Poser side that make it about the same.
In my own experience, DS4 is harder to overcome stumbling blocks (e.g. spots where the program doesn't quite work as as expected) due to its spotty documentation. I distinctly remember spending a couple of days puzzling out storing rig-changes with a morph, for example. (There's some recipies out there for it now, but not when I was building stuff for DS4.)
One thing that is easier in DS4: Switching UVs
One thing that is easier in PoserPro 2012: Rig development as each joint can start up as parametric and be weightmapped and tested individually--DS4 is an all-or-nothing when it comes weight mapping.
I also give some advantage to PoserPro 2012 when it comes to morph touch up (the morphing tool inside poser pro has been enhanced a bit in SR3.) Touch up inside the program is helpful.
Like other posters here, I've somewhat moved into a wait-and-see mode with DAZ. I find DS too buggy and undocumented for my needs. I feel DAZ has "spun" me too long with vague statements and a poor track record of delivering.
-K
I can tell you one advantage from my experience over the last few days and show it with an image post. The male on the left? He is wearing clothing from 3 different generations of figures. How difficult was it? I double-clicked and in the drop down selected the figure it was originally designed for. (Except the trench coat which was natively for Genesis.) The girl on the right? Two different generations. Just as easy. Both of them are using Gen 4 skin textures as well.
Question to Poser users...
Would you guys be happy with, instead of Genesis, V5 and M5 being released as separate Poser products with now all of the content made for each available and SOME (certainly not all the Genesis morphs) available on them such as the evolution and most of the characters for the individual V5 & M5 figures available.
This would provide you with new Poser ready models and a slew of clothing, morphs and products, but maybe not so much heavy lifting for DAZ3D in the short term.
BTW, I hear you and readily acknowledge that DAZ's lack of documentation has haunted them from the beginning. They NEED to put out an illustrated .PDF file for use with the product and available for Print-on-demand at places like Lulu.com and what not. Stop "getting something ready" and "get something ready". They can always update there online documentation center and redo the manual with a more recent .pdf version later. Even if it isn't perfect, they should put out some reasonably complete documentation. It's not like they aren't used to putting out things before it is completely ready. :) One of the biggest problems is they keep making "improvements" which require new documentation. Save the improvements for DAZ Studio 5; get to working on stability for 4.5; and get us a darn manual!
I think if DAZ did these two things (Something for the Poser users and a solid manual), that would make many in the DAZ community a lot happier, then they should spend time on ensuring more stability in the 4.5 platform, which is sorely needed.
I understand working a piece of software on a tight budget. Unless they suddenly had the financial backing of "IBM" as ssgbryan bragged about having worked for, then they are stuck with doing what they can for customers, but they are certainly confused on what they want to produce and what their customers want, which can be financially deadly. Or they are focusing on what is making them the most money in the short term and not on the long game which means supporting the products you make better.
They are losing customer base and I feel, while many are dazzled (sorry, no pun intended) by Genesis and rightly so, these other gaping disparities in between what Poser offers and DAZ Studio offers will become more and more apparent. As Poser users migrate away, then DAZ will be left trying to put together it's shiny new toy that is unstable, doesn't have documentation and a majority of their models won't appeal to the Poser users who, while currently are the main staple of their business, might change unless they take this wake up call.
Vote with your dollars. Vote with your feet. Leave.
What DAZ users hate mostly is the interjection in threads regarding other your disgust and contempt taking the thread off-topic. It's disrespectful to the person who started the thread or the artist who have spent time trying to perfect their wares and are now trying to demonstrate them.
This thread is perfect. It pretty plainly states what it is from the title (implied anyway) and is a great venting ground. Keep at it. Maybe they will take the hint and not go down in a ball of flames. I certainly hope not. I can see a lot of potential and I still have hope... but I certainly am not going to sugar-coat things for them.
They are just compressed, like a pzz file for Poser. There's a tool in DS to uncompress, but any zip utility will do the job - I use 7Zip.
Great comment RK
I'm for using a gen5 product that works like a gen4 products in poser. & older versions of daz.. No hoops, No tools, No extra's , I always said that.
One of my biggest love of daz was to animate using it.. I can't do that anymore with daz4, its just to much darn work. some people also can't understand that and you get criticized for it.
I relies this is not the first time users of daz & poser have gone through program changes here. But it is the first time Daz made it so it was not compatible with poser. Even older daz products have errors using in Genesis. whether or not they want to admit to it,.I go by what i experience when using a program not what people tell me.
I agree with you on documentation is a biggest issue. The documentation or lack of anyways. When daz4 was first introduced i was one of the stupid ones that paid for the program and not a word was mentioned that it was not going to be compatible with poser, or be given away free 2 months later. if it had been said i would have not bought daz4. I'll have to check my purchase records to see how much i had paid it was early adopters so i think i got 50% off.. But I was lead to believe that it was better than daz3a, which I have always enjoyed and daz3 worked fairly well a long side poser. this change has made me feel suckered plain and simple.
Most of those who criticize us poser users, when we complain about daz & not using gen5 products in poser are the same people who don't buy for poser. I'm not a model builder or vender . But I am one that support them by buying their products and I spend a lot.
Also i do know how the models are made & work and I know rigging etc..
As a poser user, and user of Daz3a my opinion should be just as valuable as any other Daz user not blasted for criticizing daz4 flaws. I have started using the ignore button on those who are the biggest critics of poser users. to help keep my emotions in check.
so anyone that don't like my opinions i suggest you put me on ignore as well.
Because opinions are like noses everyone has one.
BTW I spend my money at sites i can get products that will work in both daz3 & poser program. i have more bang for the buck and less effort in getting the bang.
Maybe not. If the new API capabilities were enough to let Paolo develop Reality for Poser, they may also be enough that someone could develop a plugin for Poser that would support the missing features needed for Genesis. I don't know that this is the case, but it would make sense to me as a compromise between Smith Micro and DAZ3D-- SM saying "We're not going to write code to support your new product, but we'll make it possible for you to write the code, if you're willing to invest in it."
That's what I hope is happening.
As for documentation... I can't argue that DAZ has seriously underfunded this effort. But it's worth looking here, if you're interested in the shader system:
http://docs.daz3d.com/doku.php/public/software/dazstudio/4/referenceguide/interface/panes/shader_mixer/start
Granted a lot of the articles still say "Draft" on them, which is pretty annoying considering that I handed the first versions in a year ago, but it's something.
Actually, I have the Now free version of DS and never use it, being a Poser user. But I don't really mind DAZ selling to it's Genesis market and excluding Poser users a bit. After all, a mouse click takes one to rendo where there is tons of poser stuff and the prices are lower. In my case, my only beef with DAZ is the changes to the PC.
DAZ has every right to market and sell what it wishes and customers have every right to purchase what they wish, from whom they wish. I find no reason to complain about what DAZ chooses to offer.
Agree wholehearted!
It sounds like you are happy with the content you have for the figures you possess, then and, if not, there are other companies and other figures available for Poser out there.
There are many places that sell content for those figures that you have.
Please summarize for me, what DAZ must do to either "do right by you" or , if they cannot, please realize they won't be going backwards from the revolutionary step they have made in figure creation.
I, among others, applaud DAZ for making such a figure. It is amazing and the “slew of new clothing” really comes from the old clothes made for M4,M3,D3,V4,V3,A3,Freak3,Freak4, and others. I am using things I haven't touched before and using it on all sorts of new looking figures.
yeah, I am not a fan of it either nor the inability of the forum to be able to imbed pci from other websites without downloading them myself and then adding as an attachment. Any reason for not being able to link pics any more? That way it won't take up their space, at least. I just don't understand.
I also miss the store's ability to tell me if I bought something before but I understand there is a new app for that.
And, of course.... the lack of documentation.
@RKane_1:
"I am using things I haven’t touched before and using it on all sorts of new looking figures."
Were I not so experienced in Poser, the above line would get me interested in DS. I own (as does any 3D freak) hundreds, perhaps thousands of things that are never used. I'm glad you are getting a chance to use yours.
*chuckle* You could always send me your hand-me-downs. *chuckle* Kidding.
I have been playing dress up and some stuff made for the freak looks downright sexy on V5. *chuckle*
yeah, I am not a fan of it either nor the inability of the forum to be able to imbed pci from other websites without downloading them myself and then adding as an attachment. Any reason for not being able to link pics any more? That way it won't take up their space, at least. I just don't understand.
I also miss the store's ability to tell me if I bought something before but I understand there is a new app for that.
And, of course.... the lack of documentation.
If you find that new app, can you post a URL? I have been slow to buy anything not new here because of that. I am sure DAZ is losing sales because of it and we lose chances to buy things we want.
*chuckle* You could always send me your hand-me-downs. *chuckle* Kidding.
I have been playing dress up and some stuff made for the freak looks downright sexy on V5. *chuckle*
The reverse can be highly amusing as well :-D
I wouldn't be happy with a V5 and a M5 - that is missing my concerns - purpose build meshes or "one size fits all".
Let me take a few minutes to explain why.
What does a separate V5 & M5 have that V4 & M4 doesn't? Nothing from my perspective. A whole cottage industry sprung up making products to correct the problems with the V4 & M4 meshes. The weight mapping capabilities of Poser 9/2012 addressed the last remaining issues, in my opinion.
What genesis does do (the only thing that makes it worth taking up hard drive space in my opinion) is the ability to make the characters that DAZ dropped. I don't need another Vicky - I have 150 or so V4 characters, and a few of the other variations (A4, G4, S4, and SF4), I was very disappointed by the Gen4 versions of The Girl, Aiko & Hiro - they were completely lacking in personality and the vendors noticed that - how many A4 & G4 characters were created? Not too many. We never got a Gen 4 David, Luke or Laura - She Freak was ignored and Stephanie 4 was so late to the party that very few items have S4 morphs in them.
The clothing content issue has been resolved on the Poser side by using Wardrobe Wizard or Xdresser for the base mesh and then the Morphing Clothes script to put any morphs the character needs, so the doesn't have any clothing issue is addressed. Not perfectly mind you, but I get a 90% solution, and as a hobbyist, that is good enough.
What I want is Gen 5 versions of all of the Gen 3 figures. I want a full range of figures. I am most certainly not interested in the "Logan's Run" world that DAZ appears to have embraced as far as figure development goes.
The monster making capability in genesis is interesting, but if I need a monster, I'll get a purpose designed one. Not to mention the fact that while being able to add an extra pair of arms to a character is neat - I would be a lot more impressed if someone got a shirt on them.
As far as the "slew of new clothing", it simply doesn't exist. In the year that genesis has been out on the market, I have seen exactly ONE original outfit (the short order cook - that is neat) that made me think about getting the genesis plug-in for Wardrobe Wizard. The only place you can get more than a few outfits for genesis is DAZ. Almost all of the clothing for genesis at 'Rosity is made by 1 vendor, and genesis support is practically non-existent at every other storefront.
For the price of a couple of outfits, I can convert any piece of clothing from 1 figure to any other figure - which has fairly ominous implications for clothing content vendors. Once I get a good outfit - say a male business suit - the next business suit has to be miles better than the first one for me to justify purchasing it.
The clothing vendors that are still here at DAZ for the most part are only interested in making impractical armor, skankwear or fantasy clothing. And they aren't taking requests, unless it is something that they are already interested in.
It is all a moot point anyway. For DAZ to release a stand alone V5 & M5, they have to be willing to stand up and say that they misjudged the market. I don't believe their corporate ego will allow that based on how DAZ has been run since the merger.
Stand alone Figures are dying. Morphs for a central base is the in thing. Daz didn't misjudge the market, they are re-defining it. If you're happy with tons of stand alone figures with limited support and flexability then good for you. I prefer one figure that can do it all. Lets see how long all the new stand alone figures coming out stay in the limelight. Lets see how well they are supported. I already know the answer. They would make more money being morphs for Genesis:) People love choice and the freedom to blend and use what they want from their favourite items. No stand alone figure can offer that but Genesis.
It was by Taozen, I believe. Let me dig around a bit and i think I can find it.
Found it
http://taosoft.dk/software/dazhm/
He also has a Download and Wishlist manager as well.
My sincere thanks! I will have to install some Microsoft stuff first as my current system is not only puny, but lives in shame under Win Vista Premium. But I look forward to trying it.
Reading all this here there is only one thing I can do
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PWuJvuGjFdo
I'm not sure I understand-- are you saying you want updated versions of the Gen 3 figures that are still standalone, but have better bend morphs or UV mapping or what? I mean, we do have Gen 5 versions of almost all the Gen3 figures. I think we're missing Luke, Laura, Matt, Maddie, and the baby at this point. The rest are not only available as Genesis shapes, but you can blend between them, which is something you couldn't do in Gen3. You don't have to just choose between "realistic," "anime," and "toon." You can blend your own variations.
As for monsters... I guess purpose-designed ones are good, but what if you need several related monsters in the same scene, but showing variations? Unless the figure you bought has a bunch of shape morphs, you're stuck with clone monsters. What if you want non-human characters with some monster attributes, but not completely in the monster category?
Then again, if you didn't like A4 being a morph of V4, this probably isn't a feature that appeals to you. :shrug: I found myself mixing lots and lots of morphs from different 4th gen sets to make my own unique manga and alien characters, and I really enjoyed that flexibility. Genesis isn't quite there yet (though the GenX product certainly helps!) but I see where it's going, and I'm looking forward to being able to fit clothes and accessories onto whatever blended figure I want for the scene I'm creating.
I completely agree with you about the need for shirts that can handle extra arms, however. ;)