Panties and Thighs

marble

I guess the title caught some people's eye but I couldn't think of anything more descriptive.

Is there any way to stop the way that panties glue themselves to the inner thighs? This is an example on G3F. The garment is converted using Wear-Them-All and the SickleYield product but I have the same problem with garments (especially shorts) made for G3F. I attach a screen shot to show what I mean.

XoechZ

Sorry, no sulution here. But I wanted to say that I have the same problem with G2F clothes auto-fitted to G3F. Shorts and panties are unuseable because of that. I hope this will be fixed.

Esemwy

I wonder whether converting them to dynamic props then running the cloth simulation would straighten them out. I've done it to fix shrink wrap breasts in other clothes. 

Oso3D

Some possible solutions:

Fit Control might help.

If you aren't animating, consider not autofitting, just placing panties in the right place, pose and scale, and then set Collision so that the panties stay at the skin.

Use Dynamic Clothing so the panties fit very naturally (if they aren't tight enough, you can scale the figure so the cloth hugs tight, freeze simulation, scale everything back to normal)

 

marble

I have fit control for G2F but I get a bit fed up with buying the same utilities over and over every time a new Victoria is released.

Likewise, I bought the Wear-it-All and other conversion utilities precisely so that I could use the content I've spent so much on. So it is disappointing to see these problems. However, this particular issue is not strictly limited to conversions because some shorts designed for G3F do the same thing.

As for Optitex - I despise it. I usually end up with a heap on the ground. The new Dynamic Cloth product being discussed in this sub-forum (and in the Carrara forum) looks promising but I would have to wait for a Mac version which could be a long wait. 

But thanks for your suggestions and I'll try your not autofitting tip (I sometimes do that with hair).

Richard Haseltine

I don't think Fit Control is the fix - you probably need to edit the weight maps, any auto-projection in  a cramped area like this is likely to give mediocre results, and you may need some correction morphs even then.

kaotkbliss

Go with a thong, that'll fix it ;)

marble

Yep - a string would work. :)

I have spent an hour fiddling with morphs in Blender. I got it reasonably fixed until I realised that it screws up any other built-in morphs. I guess that I have to give up on converting panties and shorts. As for those that are like this even though designed for G3F - well, If I buy any more like that they will be returned forthwith.

kitakoredaz

And,, about gen3F clothing,, we can not add buldge map for each axis  rotation (+ and  -) , with general weight,,

Can we use triax weight for gen3F clothing?  will it work?

if it work,, I feel,,, I may choose triax weight just for adding buldge weight map.

 Nowdays I  do not try tweaking product rigging to reduce these problem,,,

because  I have alrady experienced almost same thing long time,, but after all,,  it may work well only for one shape, one generation figure.

then  do not expect much.. I already feel clear limit to modify clothing which can work  for all posing and shape.

 

Then use smooth modifier,, and make morph for one final render,,,

(My hope is,,, I think we can not find answer for this problem without cloth simulation,

but hope DS offer simple editting mesh tool (not D-former, or modifiers) for morphing , then we need not export, import much..

it is really anooying to export and import each assets again and again to make one scene,,,

(I know it is my problem,, because,,I like strange pose ,, and like such clothing ^^;

and like layer costume,,then I often need  set morph only for one scene,,,one pose,,)

 

then  which product current you try?

I like to try samething with same product,, then clear show what I could or not.

Though I currently  have not bought  sickle cloth template for G3, (in wish list long time)

may be I try with  transfer tools, and customize weight map ,, then add JCM for each axis rotation,,,

(at least,,, 2 morph may need to transit smooth,, for each rotation = 2 *3  ^^;) If I modify it,,, 

though it seems not so exciting work,,,,,, I know my limit about this problem,,, .

marble

It seems to me that we should not be required to learn modelling skills, external software and the complexities of rigging just to get a purchased item of clothing to look like the item it is supposed to be. OK, one might say that clothing converted from previous generations of figures can't be expected to be perfect but I'd respond with two points: (a) I didn't expect autofit to deal with the conversion, I actually bought products from this store which claim to handle the conversion properly. And (b) This particular issue is not entirely restricted to converted clothing. There are plenty of examples of G3F shorts, etc. which display the same distortions.

Granted, the SickleYield G3F templates are mainly for dresses and tops - not for pants - so I'm not criticising the product. Wear Them All has this statement on the product page: 

All clones were made to be the exact projections of legacy figure shapes and can be used with all existing projection templates for Genesis 3 Female to fit every piece of conforming clothing from pants and shirts to footwear and headwear and even hair, as well as any full body clothing in DAZ Studio.

By the way, I checked those panties on V4 and they do not distort in the way they do when converted to G3F. 

In all other respects, I'm very pleased with the conversions using these two products. I was just hoping that someone with a better understanding of the technology might have some ideas on how to fix the pants. Perhaps it is not the conversion but a limitation of the G3F figure? Yet I have panties from Out of Touch which, while they stretch a little, do not display that kind of distortion.

Ideally, Valzheimer might be able to figure out a workaround and issue an update? One can only hope.

nicstt

Turn off smoothing, or lower it - sometimes helps; basically, conforming has lots of limitations.

(Daz please introduce Dynamics.)

marble said:

I have fit control for G2F but I get a bit fed up with buying the same utilities over and over every time a new Victoria is released.

Likewise, I bought the Wear-it-All and other conversion utilities precisely so that I could use the content I've spent so much on. So it is disappointing to see these problems. However, this particular issue is not strictly limited to conversions because some shorts designed for G3F do the same thing.

As for Optitex - I despise it. I usually end up with a heap on the ground. The new Dynamic Cloth product being discussed in this sub-forum (and in the Carrara forum) looks promising but I would have to wait for a Mac version which could be a long wait. 

But thanks for your suggestions and I'll try your not autofitting tip (I sometimes do that with hair).

With Optitex; reduce subD in view (if present) to zero, until you've initially started the pose script; stop and increase the subd if it needs more geometry.

marble

Thanks nicstt. It actually converts without smoothing - I add that later if necessary. I've also learned to switch from Base to Generic when applying smoothing to conversions. Base sometimes produces some interesting sharp daggers protruding from the rear of pants as well as some dangerous looking buttons and zips. Then there's the notorious V distortion on skirt fronts - smoothing is essential for that (or Blender).

Karen

 

marble said:

I guess the title caught some people's eye but I couldn't think of anything more descriptive.

Is there any way to stop the way that panties glue themselves to the inner thighs? This is an example on G3F. The garment is converted using Wear-Them-All and the SickleYield product but I have the same problem with garments (especially shorts) made for G3F. I attach a screen shot to show what I mean.

 

The Gen3 JCMs (and general weight maps) cause this distortion. The only conclusion is to kill the transfered JCMs and apply own corrective morphs but then there are JCMs for V7, Eva7, Bethany7 and so on. Gen3 JCMs are like a severe infection ;-) Good for tops, sweaters, shirts etc. but ugh for pants.

marble

Karen said:

 

 

The Gen3 JCMs (and general weight maps) cause this distortion. The only conclusion is to kill the transfered JCMs and apply own corrective morphs but then there are JCMs for V7, Eva7, Bethany7 and so on. Gen3 JCMs are like a severe infection ;-) Good for tops, sweaters, shirts etc. but ugh for pants.

Thank you. I wish I knew what you mean by "kill the transferred JCMs" but perhaps I don't want to know - it all looks very time consuming and complex. This is why I was hoping that Valzheimer might drop by and consider what could be done with the Wear It All product - if anything.

I did ask a question about rigging, bones and weight maps - here in this forum yesterday. Plenty of views but no responses. 

kitakoredaz

to kill Genesis3 JCM =  off "Auto followed to the clothing" is not so difficult,, but I think,, the effect is not main reason of this distortion.

(I thoguht same thing, at first, but it seems simply "weight map" is main reason + auto followed morphs)

I checked many "pantie" with auto-fit (mostly from genesis2female,, DAZ offere auto-fit template)

then it seems terrible, when I rotate Thighs -85.

I found , auto-followed JCM of genesis3,, then removed,, but it may reduce problem,, but main distortion still there.

and if delete JCM,, maybe,, pantie sink down,, Actor mesh, then after all we need another morph.

OFF smooth modifier is simply show,, actuall current mesh (deformed by weight-map only),, it is really terrible ^^;

 

Must need  "pantie" template.  at least original daz offer template "pants" for Auto fit, and Transfer utility  is 

almost  genesis3female body shape.,,,  (maybe same with body suit,,,or shirt)

 

kitakoredaz

Then your plan = adding extra bone (aka ghost bone)  is actually used for some product skirt or hair. (though there is a little problem too,,

these bone position can not follow morph shape,,, then sometimes caues another distortion,, when the character morph heavy change shape,

and each rig postion,,then need another JCM to adjust rig position for these Actor morphs.

But  you can add extra  bone with general weight  (so that the bone not controlled by Actor bone,,and weight map,,not follow posing)  ,

as same as triax weight .  simple example is,,   re-name  clothing dress shin node,, then only the shin part will move by rename bone,,

it never follow Actor shin node rotation.

 

you can remain original node and some of weight ,  and can add new extra node + weight map too..

(weight map assgined new extra node will be  removed from original nodes)

marble

I've sent a PM to Valzheimer but she (I think she but apologies if not) is not very active on these forums.

nicstt

marble said:

Thanks nicstt. It actually converts without smoothing - I add that later if necessary. I've also learned to switch from Base to Generic when applying smoothing to conversions. Base sometimes produces some interesting sharp daggers protruding from the rear of pants as well as some dangerous looking buttons and zips. Then there's the notorious V distortion on skirt fronts - smoothing is essential for that (or Blender).

Not sure what that is; I've seen on gen 2 stuff, and occasionally on gen 3. Sometimes it requires lots of smoothing to get rid of it.

Edit: no idea what happened with this post; it seems to have added my previous reply as a current one. Editted it.

kitakoredaz

It may be related this topic,,,

One product I really suprised  is, underware which is inluded in Genesis3female starter kit.

When I start lerning modeling clothing for genesis figures,,I have believed,, usually more mesh usually give me  more smooth deformaiton  with weight map.

But one day,, one vendor discribe  documet,,in daz wiki. (I could not find the document,,at current,, maybe I forget how to serch it)then she discribe,, how make low pogion underwear,, (it was bikini type top underwear,, I remember,,)

and the merit of it than more high poligon model clothing,,,  tit discribe it can reduce,, weight map problem etc too. I could understand what she said somehow but actually I have not tested the way..then after all,, I still  often add more  mesh for my clothing,,(Like subdivide,,) just hope to smooth when I rig it in daz studio,,,,)

but today I check genesis3female basic wear product (panty ^^;)  then compare with  Auto fitted product from genesis2femal.the  basic wear of genesis3female is actually really low simple poligon arrangement,,  there is no additional morph etc,,

but it not  strech  ugry,, with most of pozing. without smooth modifier keep clean edge. I need not turn off Auto followed JCM about this simple underwear. and need not apply smooth modifier, most of case,, of course it work well with smooth modifier too. I really feel it is pro modeling  techinic . and hope to learn from it. (who it vendor of this product?  I believe she intend to make it as such simple (but clean  low poligon)

I may challenge ,reduce poligon more,, when I make underwears,,,

valzheimer

marble said:

It seems to me that we should not be required to learn modelling skills, external software and the complexities of rigging just to get a purchased item of clothing to look like the item it is supposed to be. OK, one might say that clothing converted from previous generations of figures can't be expected to be perfect but I'd respond with two points: (a) I didn't expect autofit to deal with the conversion, I actually bought products from this store which claim to handle the conversion properly. And (b) This particular issue is not entirely restricted to converted clothing. There are plenty of examples of G3F shorts, etc. which display the same distortions.

Granted, the SickleYield G3F templates are mainly for dresses and tops - not for pants - so I'm not criticising the product. Wear Them All has this statement on the product page: 

All clones were made to be the exact projections of legacy figure shapes and can be used with all existing projection templates for Genesis 3 Female to fit every piece of conforming clothing from pants and shirts to footwear and headwear and even hair, as well as any full body clothing in DAZ Studio.

By the way, I checked those panties on V4 and they do not distort in the way they do when converted to G3F. 

In all other respects, I'm very pleased with the conversions using these two products. I was just hoping that someone with a better understanding of the technology might have some ideas on how to fix the pants. Perhaps it is not the conversion but a limitation of the G3F figure? Yet I have panties from Out of Touch which, while they stretch a little, do not display that kind of distortion.

Ideally, Valzheimer might be able to figure out a workaround and issue an update? One can only hope.

 

Hi, yes distortions happen because previous generation clothes was intended for generation they were created for and they lack in JCMs whereas geometry of new/G3 clothes is created from beginning to fit G3 geometry (back cross-fit can also give distortions because geometries missmatch). Just as shoes would never fit 100% perfectly same may happen with other things like fitting the crotch, as there isn't other template to use to fix that other then using either Full Body or Pants.

However workaround I'd suggest is the same I suggested under the Read Me for shoes - using Generic type of Smoothing (instead of Base Shape Matching) and in this case also using Weight parameter higher (I got best results with pushing it from 0.5 to 0.7). Not all clothes will act the same so it's on you to discover what gives you the best results, but here's one example of working with shorts and panties fitted from Victoria 4 to Genesis 3 Females. I also always convert older items to SubD (1, 2 or 3 value) to get higher resolution.

Hope that helps :)

V.

marble

I had no idea that hidden weight parameter was there! Thanks for joining the discussion and for the tips.

I will try this although I do make a habit of using Generic smoothing on conversions because of the horrific distortions I've seen in the past.

valzheimer

As for the infamous "V" shape on fitting dresses and skirts that apears on the crotch, smoothing modifier helps and also SickleYield's products gives great extra bones to manipulate all sorts of the skirts better. So those having the V appear, can just play around with the smoothing parameters to iron it up (and I warmly recommend purchasing Sickle's projections along with Wear Them All). 

V.

marble

Yep, I'd second that endorsement for SY's templates. However, if they prove tricky, I usually just smooth them out in Blender and save as a morph asset. That's easy enough but fixing the groin stretching is not.

valzheimer

marble said:

I had no idea that hidden weight parameter was there! Thanks for joining the discussion and for the tips.

I will try this although I do make a habit of using Generic smoothing on conversions because of the horrific distortions I've seen in the past.

Yes Base Shape matching can provide unwanted ditortions especially on cross-generation-fit. I personally use SubD, Smoothing and playing around with parameters as mandatory on all autofitting including those actually made for the figure (oh and with WTA there are also Expand All and Expand Chest and also Cleavage Modifiers nested under Genesis 3 Female in Full Body/Wear Them All, in case where smoothing goes overboard and you get clothing falling through figure, just push Expand All). It's not 100% perfect, but it does the job.

Karen

kitakoredaz said:

It may be related this topic,,,

One product I really suprised  is, underware which is inluded in Genesis3female starter kit.

When I start lerning modeling clothing for genesis figures,,I have believed,, usually more mesh usually give me  more smooth deformaiton  with weight map.

But one day,, one vendor discribe  documet,,in daz wiki. (I could not find the document,,at current,, maybe I forget how to serch it)then she discribe,, how make low pogion underwear,, (it was bikini type top underwear,, I remember,,)

and the merit of it than more high poligon model clothing,,,  tit discribe it can reduce,, weight map problem etc too. I could understand what she said somehow but actually I have not tested the way..then after all,, I still  often add more  mesh for my clothing,,(Like subdivide,,) just hope to smooth when I rig it in daz studio,,,,)

but today I check genesis3female basic wear product (panty ^^;)  then compare with  Auto fitted product from genesis2femal.the  basic wear of genesis3female is actually really low simple poligon arrangement,,  there is no additional morph etc,,

but it not  strech  ugry,, with most of pozing. without smooth modifier keep clean edge. I need not turn off Auto followed JCM about this simple underwear. and need not apply smooth modifier, most of case,, of course it work well with smooth modifier too. I really feel it is pro modeling  techinic . and hope to learn from it. (who it vendor of this product?  I believe she intend to make it as such simple (but clean  low poligon)

I may challenge ,reduce poligon more,, when I make underwears,,,

Hi,

I tried something: I used Transfer Utility with the basic Wear Underwear, that fits perfectly without distortions and voila see picture 1

This time only the weights maps were to blame, I smoothed them severeal times and the pants looked way better as you can see in picture 2

Seems to be a combination of too many polygons, weight maps and jcms.

For my next attempt in modeling pants I will try to keep that in mind phew

 

kitakoredaz

Hi Karen. thanks to test with basic wear mesh (gen3F). 

For gen3F , I tried with basic wear (gen2F) first (it seems high mesh)  , then use Transfer Utility, to transfer rig and weight

form genesis3female. (I test with clonebody, and some template. Actually I used gen3F product panty as template too ^^;)

but,, it almost ugry,, then I could not adjust well  weight-map.  it was really difficult. ^^; 

 

then just check gen3female weight map,, and remember,, it was discribed before. (low poly mesh give you better result then high poligon

to restrice defomation)

if actually it worked,, (I feel your correct weight map is really clean,, I dould not do it with Gen2female basic wear,,,)   I must learn the way.

(then I actually  could see some product, which deformed edge poligon bad by JCM too,,

(so you are right about JCM,,). But,,, to color weight-map the Area clean,, is really annoying problem for me.

then if low mesh (clean arranged) can easy color weight,, and restrict defomation of weight map about those such expanding area,,, I keep it in my mind,,)

timnaas

valzheimer said:

marble said:

It seems to me that we should not be required to learn modelling skills, external software and the complexities of rigging just to get a purchased item of clothing to look like the item it is supposed to be. OK, one might say that clothing converted from previous generations of figures can't be expected to be perfect but I'd respond with two points: (a) I didn't expect autofit to deal with the conversion, I actually bought products from this store which claim to handle the conversion properly. And (b) This particular issue is not entirely restricted to converted clothing. There are plenty of examples of G3F shorts, etc. which display the same distortions.

Granted, the SickleYield G3F templates are mainly for dresses and tops - not for pants - so I'm not criticising the product. Wear Them All has this statement on the product page: 

All clones were made to be the exact projections of legacy figure shapes and can be used with all existing projection templates for Genesis 3 Female to fit every piece of conforming clothing from pants and shirts to footwear and headwear and even hair, as well as any full body clothing in DAZ Studio.

By the way, I checked those panties on V4 and they do not distort in the way they do when converted to G3F. 

In all other respects, I'm very pleased with the conversions using these two products. I was just hoping that someone with a better understanding of the technology might have some ideas on how to fix the pants. Perhaps it is not the conversion but a limitation of the G3F figure? Yet I have panties from Out of Touch which, while they stretch a little, do not display that kind of distortion.

Ideally, Valzheimer might be able to figure out a workaround and issue an update? One can only hope.

 

Hi, yes distortions happen because previous generation clothes was intended for generation they were created for and they lack in JCMs whereas geometry of new/G3 clothes is created from beginning to fit G3 geometry (back cross-fit can also give distortions because geometries missmatch). Just as shoes would never fit 100% perfectly same may happen with other things like fitting the crotch, as there isn't other template to use to fix that other then using either Full Body or Pants.

However workaround I'd suggest is the same I suggested under the Read Me for shoes - using Generic type of Smoothing (instead of Base Shape Matching) and in this case also using Weight parameter higher (I got best results with pushing it from 0.5 to 0.7). Not all clothes will act the same so it's on you to discover what gives you the best results, but here's one example of working with shorts and panties fitted from Victoria 4 to Genesis 3 Females. I also always convert older items to SubD (1, 2 or 3 value) to get higher resolution.

Hope that helps :)

V.

Thank you like a 100 times over for this info! I had wondered how to fix this and tried using the weight map brush to smooth this out but couldn't seen to get it right!

I just tried this on a couple of items. Not 100% perfect, but way better than the alt!.

marble

Just as an addendum to some of the advice given here, I stumbled across the YouTube Channel of a DAZ artist called Josh Darling. Some really informative stuff there and I can't believe I had not noticed these videos before but I've just done a forum search and he does contribute to the forum and others have linked his videos in the past. Still, good information can never get too many plugs :)

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCtqhpxQyGa7fm0LPoDz4s4A

and his Google+ page:

https://plus.google.com/118143211000263475268

kitakoredaz

Thanks marble,,  I regretted  I could not find your linked tutoriall,(which clear guide each tool usage

with real working example ) when I needed to know these things.

then,, I hope to add one more  video tutroriall offered by Allen DAZ 3D (not panty but ,,high heel!!)

 yours already find it?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tbhf7cwq9hM

I really hoped to know, clear detail  of bake rotation and auto follow jcms, to adjust high heel shoe for zero shape, and foot pozing with many testing, then even though I could understand somehow  it may difficult  to tell process for others,, without showing actuall making process .  then I happend to find this tutoriall last week,, when I serch modeling tutoriall for  blender^^;

I hope Allen keep up-load  these really useful " secret daz studio " tutoriall for user who want to  making by them self,,I believe, the best person who I can learn each tool detail and actuall usage ,  about daz sutdio  is daz worker ^^;  they must know all about daz studio for each versiion clear. then hope to show more detail of each ds tools. (as document or you tube,,)

(then,, I finally could make my first high-heel from scratch today by blender and daz tools.   I really did not plan to make high-heels  by myself,,because of those un-clear detal,, often frastrate me,, when I  rig and color weight ,, then those frastration   stoped my interesting about daz 3D,,

And Allen_daz, thanks much.  your video tutoriall could  get buck my some reliablity about daz ,,

At least DAZ worker try to offer way and tutoriall for basic user, to make contents for daz studio and daz figures

to enjyoy 3d world,   I believe so.

 

Cris Palomino

marble said:

Just as an addendum to some of the advice given here, I stumbled across the YouTube Channel of a DAZ artist called Josh Darling. Some really informative stuff there and I can't believe I had not noticed these videos before but I've just done a forum search and he does contribute to the forum and others have linked his videos in the past. Still, good information can never get too many plugs :)

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCtqhpxQyGa7fm0LPoDz4s4A

and his Google+ page:

https://plus.google.com/118143211000263475268

Josh is a Daz employee and a veritable treasure to both PAs and Daz customers using Studio!  And so is Allen!  <3 <3 <3

Lissa_xyz

valzheimer said:

marble said:

It seems to me that we should not be required to learn modelling skills, external software and the complexities of rigging just to get a purchased item of clothing to look like the item it is supposed to be. OK, one might say that clothing converted from previous generations of figures can't be expected to be perfect but I'd respond with two points: (a) I didn't expect autofit to deal with the conversion, I actually bought products from this store which claim to handle the conversion properly. And (b) This particular issue is not entirely restricted to converted clothing. There are plenty of examples of G3F shorts, etc. which display the same distortions.

Granted, the SickleYield G3F templates are mainly for dresses and tops - not for pants - so I'm not criticising the product. Wear Them All has this statement on the product page: 

All clones were made to be the exact projections of legacy figure shapes and can be used with all existing projection templates for Genesis 3 Female to fit every piece of conforming clothing from pants and shirts to footwear and headwear and even hair, as well as any full body clothing in DAZ Studio.

By the way, I checked those panties on V4 and they do not distort in the way they do when converted to G3F. 

In all other respects, I'm very pleased with the conversions using these two products. I was just hoping that someone with a better understanding of the technology might have some ideas on how to fix the pants. Perhaps it is not the conversion but a limitation of the G3F figure? Yet I have panties from Out of Touch which, while they stretch a little, do not display that kind of distortion.

Ideally, Valzheimer might be able to figure out a workaround and issue an update? One can only hope.

 

Hi, yes distortions happen because previous generation clothes was intended for generation they were created for and they lack in JCMs whereas geometry of new/G3 clothes is created from beginning to fit G3 geometry (back cross-fit can also give distortions because geometries missmatch). Just as shoes would never fit 100% perfectly same may happen with other things like fitting the crotch, as there isn't other template to use to fix that other then using either Full Body or Pants.

However workaround I'd suggest is the same I suggested under the Read Me for shoes - using Generic type of Smoothing (instead of Base Shape Matching) and in this case also using Weight parameter higher (I got best results with pushing it from 0.5 to 0.7). Not all clothes will act the same so it's on you to discover what gives you the best results, but here's one example of working with shorts and panties fitted from Victoria 4 to Genesis 3 Females. I also always convert older items to SubD (1, 2 or 3 value) to get higher resolution.

Hope that helps :)

V.

Thank you for this. I ended up getting poke through using those same briefs so I ended up having to apply a very small push modifier at .05 and they look great. :D