Composition - Call to Arms
Knittingmommy
Posts: 8,191
Recently, Ice Dragon Art and I were discussing the topic of Composition. Composition is one of those important aspects of art that is also one of the hardest to get right. It may seem like an easy topic. When composition is mentioned, usually the Rule of Thirds are loudly touted and mentioned. Some are for it and some are against it and some just don't know what all of the fuss is about. There is more to composition than just the Rule of Thirds, though. There is Value, Color, Leading Lines, Symmetry and Patterns, Viewpoint, Background, Depth, Framing, and maybe others I haven't heard of yet. How do you put it all together. Do you use one compositional element or more than one? All of them? How do you decide which ones are better for the look you are trying to achieve?
We are smart women and yet this very basic, important part of art has us stumped. Sometimes, we get it right. Most times, we don't really know how we got it right when we did. We aren't always sure how to apply those compositional elements to our work to make a good image. And, we can't always figure out how those compositional elements were applied when looking at an image created by others. We have to admit to being compositional dunces sitting in the corner with our dunce hats on because composition is still Greek to us. And, since there is not currently a thread devoted to Composition, we decided to create one.
So, this is our plea. Those of you who are good at this thing we call art. You vendors and artists and wise ones. You amateurs who have won contests or hit the Leader Board in the Gallery with your amazing pieces. Post your best work or works and explain it to us. Tell us what element or elements of composition you used and why you chose what you did. Explain to us dunces, who struggle with these basic stepping stones in the art, the parts that made up your image, the story you told and how you managed to make it great. If you need to mark up your image and draw circles or lines to give us a visual, go for it, but show us the original, too. If you can explain it in words alone, we will try to understand. We want to learn. We will ask questions. We don't want this to be a debate on the merits of whether an image is bad or good as a whole. Our focus is on understanding this basic stepping stone. It is the composition of the piece we after and the why and the how.
And if you have a really bad composition render you are willing to share to illustrate what NOT to do, post that, as well. We won't judge. It might actually help us learn.
It is our hope that this can become another of those threads that stands the test of time and continues to aid those who will follow, those who also have their dunce hats when it comes to composition and want to learn. So, please, help us out and teach us.
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Golden Rules Prop v1.5 for DS
Golden Rules Composition Helpers for Bryce by David Brinnen Horo
http://www.creativebloq.com/digital-art/tips-composition-31514496
http://floobynooby.blogspot.ca/2013/12/the-cinematography-of-incredibles-part-1.html
http://www.apogeephoto.com/may2014/how-to-use-the-golden-ratio-to-improve-your-photography.shtml
http://muddycolors.blogspot.com/2012/08/composition-basics-value-structure.html
Yes, we are hoping for lots of participation, we would really like for this to be a learning thread!
Think of all compositional rules as suggestions, they can influence but they should not control and dictate, because we're talking about art, and art is an expression of your creativity and should not be constrained. Nonetheless, just like education, having knowledge frees you up to be creative. Learning the rules, allows you to know when you can break them. And I'm a firm believer that we learn by doing. I might set up a subject for a render, but I will always move the camera around trying different angles and different compositions. I might also change the aspect ratio. That redefines composition again. I always know there is a focus to the image, but the placement usually develops over time. Luckily, it's easy to do in Studio. I might do 20-30 test renders till I decide on the one that works for what I am trying to convey. There is no magic, one size fits all solution. Now sometimes moving the camera causes the need to change the lighting of the scene, so over time the image evolves from what I started with in terms of inspiration, into something more creative. Allow the image to become.
There's some tips here:
http://www.creativebloq.com/digital-art/tips-composition-31514496
Thank you First Bastion! Love your promos and the renders you show on your thread. They make me want to buy your stuff even when its not in the genre I usually work in lol. I think one of my biggest challenges is to take the time to try out different view points. I just recently started playing with camera angles and need to really work on my obsessive need for symmetry and my fear of trying new and odd things with it lol. The link is very helpful, I learned a couple new things from that as well, I particular liked the example of the girl on the bike and how it all pointed (subtley) to her face. I never would have thought to use elements like that. Hmmm and the bit about colors, especially the desaturating bit was most interesting as well. I think I am going to work on something over the weekend with your tips about camera angles and some of the stuff in the link and see what I can come up with.
Thanks, FB. Very useful advice. I do that some, but probably not as much as I should. One of my many failrures, I think, is that I can get so focused on one aspect of an image that I fail to experiment or play with others that might actually make an image better or more interesting. Focus is great, but not if it also prevents me from seeing something from different angles or trying out new arrangesment of items within my scene. I really need to learn to take a step back from my images and follow your suggestions.
Just in case someone's reading this and doesn't know, DazStudio has a "Rule of Thirds" guide in the later versions of the program from 4.7 onwards and can be toggled on and off. It divides the viewport into equal thirds. It's just another tool in the arsenal that can come in handy.
The rule of thirds is a great tool for beginners, but it should be remembered that the thirds can also be on the diagonal rather than straight vertical/horizontal
overlaying a grid it shows what I mean. I also put a fibonacci spiral on this one as well, and had got pretty close to that as well.
It is fun sometimes to do an image, and then lay a grid over to see how close you actually got to the golden points..
Good point. I knew DS had this, but when I first started using it, I had no idea what its intended purpose was. I found out later through doing the New User Contests about the Rule of Thirds guide inside DazStudio. I had actually turned that off when I first started playing with the program as it kept getting in the way of seeing what I wanted in the viewport. Now, I know to turn it back on when I want to check it.
This I didn't know. Never thought about turning the Rule of Thirds on the diagonal. I've seen the Fibernacci spiral, but haven't used it yet.
This is a bit of a long read but very informative. I cannot remember who originally shared the link but I bookmarked it for future reference.
http://floobynooby.blogspot.ca/2013/12/the-cinematography-of-incredibles-part-1.html
Ohhh I never would have thought to rotate that rule of thirds! Not entirelye sure how the spiral is supposed to work though
There was a LOT of information in that article! I only made it about halfway down before my eyes started to cross. It was like information overload. I'll have to take a couple of days to read it and maybe even try to set up some similar shots. Lots of good info in there, though! Thanks, Kismet!
It is a complicated thing. Especially actually drawing one up, mush easier to find one ready made that you can use as an overlay.
This article is very detailed, but good
http://www.apogeephoto.com/may2014/how-to-use-the-golden-ratio-to-improve-your-photography.shtml
Its basically doing what my Art teacher always said, lead the viewer into the image
Mine didn't work like that, but did sort of work when i turned it upside down LOL
Thank you! Will read that on my break when I can read it uninterrupted. I don't remember any of this being in my art classes although in all fairness it was highschool art and it was a long time ago lol.
This is a free Golden Rules prop available on ShareCG that is parented to the camera. It contains the Rule of Thirds, The Golden Spiral, the Phi Composition referred to in the article in Cho's link. I use it every tme I load a camera.
I remember very little from the few art classes I took in either high school or college. And the few classes I took, I have to admit I concentrated on sculpture because the was more fun than my meager drawing skills. With the advent of 3D and programs like DazStudio, it is so much easier to get into and try to create images I see in my head. I like all the info that has been shared so far. Thank you!
Rule of thirds, POV, avoiding tangents (only relevant in line art), and values (in conjunction with color) are the most important to me. Rule of thirds covers a lot of framing issues. POV covers a portion of intention. And values covers clarity and mood. Once you get into comics, film and animation, there are additional important rules regarding composition, like Crossing the Line, character POV, etc.
To me there is a bit of a disconnect between 3D art and, say, painted art when we're talking about values. Applying broad values to 3D art is kind of antithetical to how 3D art often operates. It doesn't really rely on "values" it relies on "lighting". You create values with lighting...but if you're rendering anything remotely realistic, you're kind of beholden to the nature of reality-based light. If you approach a realistic image (either real life or 3D generated) exclusively on the application of values (disregarding the properties of actual light), you would have a very stark and specific kind of imagery. It would be artistic, but not at all naturalistic. I prefer the concept of artificial/artistic value application over reality-based lighting, but that's not going to be everyone's cup of tea -- it's certainly not something that's ever done in modern 3D rendered animation ala Pixar, et al.
So, rule of thirds and POV will provide the image's intention. Value (and color values) will establish the image's clarity and mood. There's not a whole lot more you need than that. I don't always go in for the notion of "leading the eye" since not everyone scrolls an image from left to right the way folks in the UK and US do. So unless you're literally doing an on-the-nose kind of lead wherein someone is literally pointing to something in the image, I don't think leading the eye is that important to composition.
My thoughts
Here's a quick and easy on values, just FYI --
http://muddycolors.blogspot.com/2012/08/composition-basics-value-structure.html
Another great link thank you BC Rice. And I am off to load that golden rule from sharecg thank you Kismet.
Thank you for that link. It actually answered a couple of questions I had concerning value and how to make images like this more dramatic. I like the idea about splitting the scene up in sections, foreground, middleground and background.
Edit: I meant to add that I tend to agree about lighting adding value. It is something I've noticed in good images. I tend to rely on good light sets for this as lighting is still one of those things I struggle with, but a good light set seems to really add to the value in an image. When I come across a setup that seems to really add value to an image I'm working on, I generally try and take it apart and figure out how the PA managed to do that, but I'm not always successful.
Every Frame a Painting is a nice little bible of stuff to draw from as well. It focuses on film, but there is a wealth of knowledge in these videos. For instance when it's talking about movement in a Kurosawa film, that is still translatable to a still image.
https://www.youtube.com/user/everyframeapainting
This was most interesting. I think this question How to emphasize to the audience that something is important? is something that I am going to post on my moniter screen I think it will really help me to focus.
I really want to put something together using all the new stuff I have learned here already but I am currently having issues with my database in my 4.9 main rendering computer. Until I get everything that went missing loaded back up I can't really work on anything effectively lol. I've been at the data base thing for going on a week now and am about halfway done. The hardest part is actually finding whats missing and then re cataloging it into my custom categories.
Hope you get everything figured out. I have a couple things in the works and hope to upload soon to get some input and other opinions on how well I applied the concept and what might be changed to do better. Right now I'm playing with the leading lines aspect which is kind of harder than I thought it would be or I'm just not seeing the lines I'm trying to incorporate.
Ya that looked like a tough one and one I had never heard of. I am trying to really pay attention and see if I can spot that kind of stuff now when i am looking at art or watching a movie. Sometimes its really subtle!
My two cents as a beginner. Tools are great and getting the mechanics down is useful. I find what is most helpful though since i started doing this thing is just to go somewhere and people watch or animal watch or nature watch. I have started viewing the world around me in a whole different way. "Hey thats interesting how that shadow is being cast from that *insert thing* Or wow that persons skin is so interesting etc. I think early on i was so focused on the mechanics of getting a scene set up, posing...materials....props i was gonna use, setting up the camera etc that it was like I was just throwing chemicals together in a mad science lab seeing what would happen. As time has gone by i have started to refine my own style as i see it at this point and just try to get things out of my head into the 3d space the way I envisioned it. I also seem to be focusing on different aspects of the art like facial expressions for instance, Especially with G3 figures since the face rig has so many fine tuning points. I guess the point i am trying to make is that you learn to use those tools unconciously once you start to have a good grasp of the basics. I am by no means an expert but almost every render i do is more and more satisifying to my eye. There are exceptions when your experimenting but it will come.
Daniel
I have found that I look at the world quite differently too. My daughter and I were at the buffet yesterday and I looked at this older woman who had the most beautiful, strong face. Not classically beautiful like model beauty but just such a beautiful strong bone structure, great skin etc. I never paid attention to that kind of thing before.
Wait until you see someone's boots and think "I really like those but I would change the texture to x"
Hahaha already done that lol! Especially since some of the newest layered shaders have come out. Or I will look at something and think hmm what could i do to make that look more like real leather? Even though its already real leather....Although my favorite is - those are great boots but totally impractical for an elven warrior to wear in a fight...
I find that I'm using my camera on the phone more to take reference shots when I'm out and about. I'll see something that really strikes me especially with lighting or how things look together that I never thought of before. Sometimes, I'll remember to also take the regular camera with me. I never know when I'll see something that I'd like to try and copy in a render just to see if I can. I'm, also, finding that more often than not, when I'm taking a picture I'm more likely to take a more compositionally pleasing picture than when I'm struggling to try and get a pleasant setup in my DAZ camera. I'm not sure why that is. Maybe just because I've played with photography since I was a kid and it is more automatic and I don't think about it. Or it could be that I have to take the pictures quickly or lose the shot and sometimes I can spend too long over thinking how things look in the DAZ camera. I don't know. I find I look at a lot of things more closely now.
I found myself making pictures of moss and fractal cabbage with the cam on the mobile, took the moss into gimp to make a tile and a bump/displacement tile from it and actually used that on several instances. Its not high res but works for the distance shots well enough. Still looking for a use of the fractal cabbage...