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I haven't tried to bring in the store products, simply because if people are paying, as long as the EULA is followed, whatever use they want to give it, I should be fine: I have been compensated for it already. If I don't like the EULA I have the option to lobby DAZ (or wherever it is I am selling) to alter it, or release on my own site with my own EULA. Simple.
The discussion has centred fully into freebies because those are the ones where the "not for commercial use" issue keeps cropping up, and where there are discussions on what that means exactly; I have yet to see any commercially released product that has it.
I agree with something you said earlier. The Not for Commercial Use thing started being used for freebies when people started using other peoples generous off of freebies as a way of making money.
So Someone offers a clothing item as a freebie, and people download it, make add on texture sets and then sell them.
I have seen this happen many times, and can not blame the Freebie makers adding a "Not for Commercial Use" tag to them.
So what we finally need is a new EULA for freebie creators?
One that states the use of the product, that is in part the same as the DAZ EULA concerning the use of the renders.
So that any creator may choose, either "only private use" as it is right now, or "yes, you may show and use your render as you wish, in the limits of the EULA".
Yeah, that´s how I see it too. You can use a freebie for non-commercial projects only but a bought item from the same author can be used for anything you like (I mean renders, not mesh distribution here). Where is the logic of this? What is so special about the freebies, why are they more worth to the author than the items s/he offers for sale? I would understand when some authors don´t want people to use any of their stuff in commercial renders, but when they say it is okay for a bought item but not okay for a freebie item, I don´t get it. Shouldn´t they be equally bothered by the commercial use of their products in either case?
Lets say that some vendor who makes characters wants his or her products to be used only for serious art. But then someone makes some really naughty renders with this vendor´s items and puts those renders on sale. Will the author of these items be less enraged if all items used in those renders are not freebies but bought products with commercial use allowed?
Also, ShareCg is a bit strange concerning this. I encountered several items there which are labeled as "All rights reserved" (according to ShareCg rules this means you cannot even download them) but in the description it is written that both non-commercial and commercial use is allowed. Just weird.
I don't download non-commercial use freebies. It just saves me time. Its not like I've ever sold anything yet... But, I don't want to have to remember the license for every item I dl and use for an image.
Problem is, sometimes it just isn't clear. For example, some people on ShareCG, have items listed as available for: "Personal and Commercial use." category. but there is no definition of that. Does that mean its okay for commercial use? Then why not use that category since one assumes personal use is ok.
Rendo also can be sketchy. I've seen folks have their item listed as commercial use in the splash screen, but when I read the readme, it says zoinks, can't personal use only.
I wish there was a better way to simply have a commercial use section. I don't even want to see the non-commercial use freebies. =0
I am very meticulous about respecting a person's copyright and wishes. However, if it gets too complicated, I usually just delete the item.
I don't understand a lot of the freebies being non-commercial. Sometimes there's no way to buy the freebie for commercial use too. If you go through the trouble of making a 3D model and upload it to the internet to share, why would you not allow anybody to use it for anything? How often is it really that people just play with making 3D models for "personal use"? Yeah, if you're going to practice with a tutorial or technique, then I can see needing something to test stuff out on but many freebies I've seen are seemingly built to be used for elaborate projects and I just can't imagine anybody putting so much time and effort into something they can't show anybody or use to get work. Why even upload the freebie at all?
Just to share an experience I've had recently, I've bought magazines like Imagine FX, 3D World, and 3D Artist for years and they come with CDs/DVDs filled with extra content, usually from DAZ and certain other places like Turbosquid and CGAxis. Well, on occasion they'll have exclusive items from artists and certain boutique places and they're listed as commercial use on the interactive menu screen. When downloaded, if you look at the Readme and License files of some of them, they're listed as non-commerical use only. So, this presents an interesting question, if the magazine lists the product as commercial use in their program yet the model's licensing says the opposite, who is held accountable when the models are used in a commercial product? Surely the magazine would have had to make sure that the models were commercial use unless they didn't do their due diligance and contact the artist/business to make sure. But then again, perhaps the magazine received special permission to offer the model for commercial use to its reader base, which then brings up the question of proving who received the model from the magazine and who downloaded it from elsewhere. Surely if that were the case, it would have been listed somewhere on the disc or in a Readme somewhere.
In the end, it's just easier to avoid non-commercial model downloads at all costs. If you've downloaded any freebies, do like many have already said and look over all of the documentation that they come with to make sure that it's okay to use before adding it to your Runtime folder.
If the 3D models are free to distribute I don't see where the problem is. The main goal of a magazine is to provide something to read to their readers. The additional bonus contents may not be seen as a commercial use in a court as that is not what they use to make profit. And I think that it could also be seen as for educational purpose. If their main activity was to sell CD with contents, it would be illegal. And if someone use the provided content for commercial use, then this person could be sued.
To answer also to the why free and no commercial use, the answer has been given : to avoid people making profit of something freely distibuted. There is also more. The "spirit of free". When releasing something free I guess some people also want all derivative work to be free so that it can have a life of it's own. So that even if the original author doesn't update the product, it could be updated by someone else. That is the case for many open source project.
There is also the case of people making freebies derivated from well known people/series/comics/etc. Let's say someone makes a freebie model of a star trek spaceship. I think that the freebie maker may already have infringed the law but this practice is tolerated by the owner of the copyright as there is no profit. But tell me could the freebie maker give the right to make commercial use of a copyrighted material? Thus the non commercial use licence. It's just a fan made freebie for the fans and that's all
To the question of rendering, I'm not a lawyer, but there is something about derivative work and transformative work in the laws, but even though, that is not very easy to give a an answer after reading it. I guess the best thing to do is eventually to contact the freebie maker
A good example of confusing usage is norinori...
The items are marked "Non-commercial use" but this is the Google translation of the ReadMe...
I keep meaning to ask my sister-in-law for a 'good' translation...considering she's a 'native speaker' I think I should be able to get a better translation than Google's...
But, to me, as it stands, it looks like 'non-commercial' in this case refers to reselling the original mesh/textures. (Norinori makes some VERY nice clothing...but tends to be under used, as far as I can tell, because of the very confusing terms of use...)
A 'uniform' EULA for freebies would be a good idea, but trying to come up with one that will stand across multiple jurisdictions will be an exercise that would turn a very hairy guy into a chrome dome in no time. None of the CC licenses really 'fit', because they allow for the redistribution of the original mesh/work, most requiring credit be given.
For my stuff, I don't really care what someone uses it for...just don't resell the original. (And as far as it goes, I don't have the resources to go after someone who does...yeah, it would make me mad, but not a whole lot I could really do. And even if I did get something, the likelihood of getting any cash out the deal is slim to none...the best is getting the item taken down/person banned).
And technically...for this month's Freebie Contest, there should be no prizes...because, the theme is deeply into that definite commercial no-no of 'fanart'. Because, even if there are no gift certs or cash involved, the prize still has a value and in some jurisdictions can/will be considered 'profit'...
I am not sure why you have brought the longrunning Freebie challenge into this, but even the prizes in the freebie challenge are for the most part "feebies" inasmuch as for the most part they are given by people who have made them purely for this challenge, they are not freely distributed in any form. The freebie challenge is all about using freebies, the more the merrier.
I brought it in, because the theme, this month is "TV", which, by default means 'fanart'...which means 'NON-COMMERCIAL'm mainly to illustrate the 'murkiness' of the whole thing. Contests, as defined earlier in this thread are 'commercial' usage, and if there were a gift cert prize, then things would become extremely murky. Even if most of the items in the render were allowable for commercial usage, some, especially for certain shows (like most anime and Trek) will have to include some items that probably shouldn't be used 'commercially'.
The freebie challenge was originally started as a Challenge to prove that it was possible to create a render without using anything that had been purchased. Daz 3D sort of spoiled it a bit when the gen 4 figures reverted to being paid for items, until that stage it was possible to make the whole image without one "commercial" item in it.
Still missing my point...
1. It is a contest.
2. The renders, as defined earlier in the thread, are 'commercial' usage of items.
3. In particular, this month's theme is promoting 'commercial' usage of items that should technically be used 'non-commercially'.
No I dont think she meant that...
The challenge is to use freebies. The renders become commercial renders... (I assume that daz gets the right to use the renders or something for the newsletter or promos perhaps)
Hang on... I read that wrong... Disregard my post. :-S
Still missing my point...
1. It is a contest.
2. The renders, as defined earlier in the thread, are 'commercial' usage of items.
3. In particular, this month's theme is promoting 'commercial' usage of items that should technically be used 'non-commercially'.
It is a Challenge The Prizes are all made by Freebie providers, most months. It really shouldn't be judged alongside Contests with Prized with monetary value, just to prove a point. Honestly.
With regasards to this point please remember that I am posting this as a forum member, not wearing my other hat, as I am one of the freebie providers that often gives prizes for this challenge
Basically, what it boils down to is that 'commercial' usage crops up in some of the most unexpected places/circumstances.
Did anyone think, that possibly, a render for the Freebie Challenge could be 'commercial'?
Hmm. It seems that determining what "commercial use" truly means is a nearly impossible task. Like Chohole mentioned at the start of this thread "any contest which is carrying a prize is considered Commercial use”. That´s what I always thought as well. Then suddenly it turns out that this is not true, as Freebie Challenge contest should be an exception from this rule. Yet very strictly speaking, Freebie Challenge should be considered commercial also, at least in a way, because you do get a prize. There is a difference between getting a paid item for free as a prize (other people must buy it in order to get it) and getting a freebie as a prize (it is not sold anywhere). But I feel we are walking a rather thin line here. A prize is a prize, after all. Especially when only the winner of the contest is entitled to get the freebie - then that item is not just a cassual freebie, it´s price is in it´s uniqueness (no one else is going to get it, only the winner).
Surely 3d content made available to the public (Especially for free) that the creator cant put lawful restrictions that state you cant make any 'artwork render' with that content in it public! A render is an 'Image' not distributing or selling the actual product.
Plus in past contests GCs were part of the prize package...usually though just for the biggies...like the Halloween one.
I don't know if you have noticed, but images are being sold and bought all the times. Even ones that only exist digitally and not on physical media.
Really, it's a very simple definition - if you gain, expect to gain or gamble on the expectation to gain any benefit or profit out of your artwork, beside reputation, it counts as 'commercial'.
I'm pretty sure an image is a derivative work, so yes they can place any restrictions they like on the usage. The choice is to accept the restrictions or to find, or create, an alternative item with more palatable restrictions.
Avoid the minefield. Just use freebies that are okay for commercial use. Also, if the challenge identifies specific freebies, I think that might count as tacit permission to use them in the challenge (assuming the actual content creators are participating in the organisation of the challenge).
I'm pretty sure an image is a derivative work, so yes they can place any restrictions they like on the usage. The choice is to accept the restrictions or to find, or create, an alternative item with more palatable restrictions.
Yeah you are right of course! ... Just a shame really that so many of the freebies restrict you from using it in renders, more so with ones you use as a personal entry to a contest (Which I would only enter for fun!). Selling renders of it, I could agree with as an 'appropriate' restriction. But this topic seems to suggest we cant even post renders of it on say: deviant art or here. (Maybe I just all confused lol)
Studying copyright in digital media and art seemed so much more simple and straight forward than the EULA with 3d lol (Then again, I had teachers for digital media and art) (3d was not the primary core of digital media diploma btw)
In a way, both sides are 'correct' on this.
And both are wrong.
By making an item available, whether there is a charge or not, the creator of that item gets to decide what rights are transferred to the person acquiring it. Generally, that means usage rights. Sometimes, but not very often it includes distribution rights. Legally, there really isn't a 'restricted usage', except when it deals with trademarked items. So a 'generic' widget made by someone shouldn't be able to be restricted to 'non-commercial' end use (finished render), because there isn't clearly defined legal precedent for doing so. You can either use it or you can't. There's not really any distinctions as to what you can use it for, though. And yes, it is a lot like that can of paint...you can do most anything with it, but you can't sell what you've painted isn't very likely to stand up in court. And there isn't likely to be any real test case for this, because most free content creators don't have the resources to take it to court (not entirely true...because there have been cases where publishers have taken artists to court that took and cut up books/magazines; usually those type of cases end in favor of the 'artisit'). But when it comes to trademarked items, the rules are different, very confusing, often not uniform and subject to things like the US's 'Fair Use' clauses, and in this area, there are plenty of court cases...more often than not, ending in favor of the trademark holder.
Now, of course, the 'legal' consideration as to whether or not there really is a 'restricted use', it becomes a moot point when you actually use the item...you become bound by the license terms, regardless of whether or not they really exist. Which, when it comes down to it, is what is usually found in the readme or EULA or content creator's website (if spelled out) not what some category on a distribution website says.*
Basically, there should be four clearly defined categories...
1. Public domain. The creator basically gives up all rights to the item and no longer has a say in what happens to it. Under this, the creator, cuts all ties to the item and anyone can do anything with it.
2. Limited distribution. This can be something along the lines of the Creative Commons license. Allows for redistribution and/or modifications, as long as the method of distribution is the same as the original content (in this case free and under the same terms) AND proper credit/attribution to the original creator. This would allow modifications, derivatives, format conversions and so on.
3. Usage rights only. The downloader is allowed to use the item as they see fit, but can't redistribute it. This means all uses...including sales of the final render/contest entries/use in a game, as long as the original mesh/textures can't be extracted. (similar to most purchased content)
4. "Fan item". An item that is a fan art/fan made item of a trademarked franchise, like Star Trek items. Basically, needs to adhere to the terms that other fan related items particular to that franchise are used. This would also include celebrity morphs. Basically it means, in most cases, you can't make any money/benefit other than reputation from the using the item.\
*All of the above is my opinion, based on quite a bit of research, not any legal advice.
Now this next part is probably going to upset a few people...
A lot of the problem comes from some misguided/mistaken belief that because you, as a content creator, are making an item available for 'free' means that nobody else should be able to make any money from it. Well, in reality, when an 'artist' uses the item to make a render (picture/painting/etc) they aren't, technically, making money off of you. They are making money off of their work, composition skill, interpretation of an idea, etc. It was your choice to 'give it a way' as opposed to offer it for sale. It was your skill that made the item and your choice to not charge for it. Live with it. Don't make it confusing for the rest of us. As a 'user' and a creator, I try to make it clear with my items...any use, except redistribution for profit (yes, I've actually put some of my stuff under CC, so it can be redistributed under the CC terms). I'm rather flattered when someone uses something I made to make some money.
Look I realize that I came late to this party, but having entered and placed in several contests of the Challenge type ( some of them alongside Cho - Hi Cho! Bryce on!) the only thing ever offered as a prize would be bragging rights, a 1st, 2nd, 3rd place trophy image, and maybe the right to pick the next Challenge Topic.
Zero cash, zero monetary value.
Zilch.
So there are contests, then there are Contests.
If the prizes are cash, have cash value, like say even a scholarship, that is Commercial Use.
A freebie creator is giving you their time and skill to use without charging you a fee. This gives them the right to stipulate how you use it. When you download it, you make a deal with the freebie owner to abide by their usage requests. If you don't want to do that, don't download it. Or contact the creator by email and discuss how you'd like to use their work - they might give you permission.
Can you violate that agreement and get away with it? Sure, it is unlikely that they'll sue you, because they stand to spend more than they"ll make out of a lawsuit. It's essentially a question of ethics - yours.
If they find you've violated your end of the bargain, though, expect them to notify administrators of digital art gallery websites where you post, forum contests you've entered, etc. Then expect to be permanently banned. Daz3D and most other sites will treat that as copyright violation and by way of the TOS kick you to the curb.
I've created a few freebies through the years (the rose I used in the attached image was one) but none are available now. And the only stipulation on usage I gave was "send me a link or give me credit if use it or don't, whatever I'd just like to see what you do with it" but it was a case of my house, my rules.
Sorry to be so long-winded; consider my $0.02 worth spent.
I just want it to be clear. Freebies that are ok for commercial use, should be labeled such on the site and in the readme. ShareCG, has several 'commercial use' categories which just add to the mess.
Unrestricted use
Commercial Renders Ok, Contents not for redestribution
Commercial Renders Personal use.
It just makes it weird to search for items, with so many categories. Especially when number 3 is just not defined. One assumes if Commerical renders are fine, that the owner has no issue with personal use renders. Why even make a category for personal use at all? Isn't that a given if you put a freebie up on a site? If you didn't ok that for personal use, why upload a shared file to a site for 3d artists....?
My thoughts EXACTLY :)
My thoughts EXACTLY :)
I like sharecg but their labeling system drives me nutty.=-) Especially the Commerical and Personal Use label. Because if you click to see what that means, they define it as being subject to the applicable license agreement. But, what does that mean? Unless the readme defines it,as being ok for commercial use, then I don't have any idea what the artist intends by that label at all. Especially when there already is a commerical renders ok, label.
I have no quarrel with artists who don't want their items used commercially. I just want a way to clearly identify those, so I don't mistakenly download one. I only want commerical use ok items in my runtime.
It is best to assume that those sorts of products that only are vague about usage rights or who have worded their Eula in such a way that it is not clear and understandable- that it is for personal use only. If you assume things are personal use only unless otherwise stated, you can't go wrong :)