Strange ripples in figure mesh following export from Zbrush using GoZ
IsaacNewton
Posts: 1,300
I am trying to create a non-mammalian alien character using g3f. I want the face to retain the softness of a female, but the character has no mammary glands (non-mammalian), so I created a smooth chest morph in Zbrush. (Note the g3f figure was sent to Zbrush using GoZ and I'm using DS4.9.1.30)
When I sent the morphed figure back to DS using GoZ I saw that there were ripples in the mesh at the junction between the lower chest and pectoral zones. (click on image for a better view)
Whatever I do in Zbrush e.g. smoothing the mesh, expanding the mesh, the result is the same; the ripples which are NOT present in the mesh in Zbrush do appear in the mesh in DS. I have also tried switching off all other morphs affecting the torso in DS but that has no effect on the ripples.
Therefore I tried a different approach; I exported the morphed figure from Zbrush as an obj file (with scale set to 1 in the options).
When I applied the morphed figure obj as a morph, using Morph Loader Pro, to a new base g3f figure (using an import scale of 10000%), I found that the ripples in the chest area were gone. Unfortunately, I found that none of the movement morphs on the figure (arm bend etc) worked properly any more. They gave strange distortions. I assume that this effect is due to the scale of the morph not exactly matching the scale of the base g3f figure.
So, two questions:
1) Is it possible to avoid the strange ripples in the chest caused when using GoZ to import the smooth chest morph to DS? If so, how?
2) Failing an answer to the first question; what is the precise scale factor I should use when loading a morph into DS4.9 using Morph Loader Pro for an obj file which was exported from Zbrush?
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Comments
I'm not sure what is causing the ripples, though the lighting is different in the two imaegs of course. The ZBrush scale is 1 unit = 1m, I use the modo preset to import a mesh or morph exported from ZBrush as OBJ.
What import options are you using in GoZ? That would be helpful to see.
As for scale questions...I have never had to worry about scale with ZBrush. I just make sure my scale settings in the OBJ Exporter match the settings of my OBJ Importer and it worked for me. I'm pretty sure ZBrush doesn't scale your files. I like to use DAZ Studio scale on import and export.
Scale matters if you GoZ to ZBrush but for some reason export the OBJ and load with Morph Loader (or import as a new mesh) - I think this came up in a forum thread and that's how I found the right scale seemed to be the 1 unit = 1 m option.
Odd, I just tested it by exporting Genesis 3 Female to OBJ, loading that in ZBrush, sculpting on it, exporting to OBJ and loading it back in as a morph. No scale happened. That was all with DAZ Studio scale (1 unit = 1 cm)
Hi Josh,
I leave the GoZ options as default, see attached image.
Issues with scaling definitely do occur if scaling is included in the figure and then the figure is sent to Zbrush by GoZ but then the morphed figure is saved as an obj file from Zbrush and then loaded on to the original figure in DS using Morph Loader Pro.
The example you gave indicates that you EXPORTED the figure from DS (not using GoZ). In that situation, I agree there is no scale issue. The issue is that if you send a figure scaled in DS to ZB via GoZ then you MUST use GoZ to send it back to DS to avoid and scaling issues. However, if you do this then the strange ripples appear in the morph (at least my flat chest morph). If the flat-chest morphed figure is exported from ZB as an obj file and then loaded as a morph onto the original figure then the ripples are not present (but scaling issues are present IF the figure was scaled in DS prior to Goz to ZB).
So, there is a work around:
1) Don't include any scaling of the figure before exporting to ZB via GoZ.
2) Export the morphed figure from ZB as obj
3) Load the morphed figure obj via Morph Loader Pro in DS.
4) Add any scaling after the new morph is added.
Whilst this works it is a pain in the proverbial...... It prevents one of the most useful features of GoZ, which is that you can go back and forth between DS and ZB making small changes until you have what you want.
So, is there any way to "fix" GoZ, so that it works as advertised?
When you are talking about scaling, do you mean the scale dials in the Parameters Pane?
Also, can you please show me another screenshot of GoZ but this time click that Advanced button so I can see all the options?
By scaling I am refering to Scale dials in the Parameters Pane, but also I think parameters like Hand Propgating Scale or Leg Length and maybe any dial which affects scale.
The GoZ Advanced parameters are default, but I have attached a picture anyway.
OK, I know there is a bug in Morph Loader (which is also used under the hood when going through GoZ) with scale. You are far more likely to have good results if you don't have scale going on.
What morphs are you dialing up that use scale? If you are dialing up a full character it is important for you to know that we split our characters into head and body morphs and we don't apply scale to those. We create a control property that dials up the head and body together and then also scales it. If you are starting from existing morphs you should never work with that control property, you should instead dial up the head and body morphs individually.
Oops sorry, in that Advanced screenshot could you please expand all those options so I can see exactly how it is set up?
Hi Josh,
I was using a whole range of dials including Body Scale. I also used the Youth Morph from Shape Shift by Zev0 and Boy-Girl Male body from BOY-GIRL Genesis 3 Female by Mar3D(Renderosity) to get a start on a smooth chest form before I went into Zbrush.
Interestingly, I went into Zbrush again with this model after removing all the morphs with any scaling effect except for the two mentioned above and after updating to DS 4.9.2.55 and GoZ 1.6.2.55 and in ZB applied a smoothing brush to the rippled area (which was actually showing now as ripples in the mesh). When I sent this figure back to DS via GoZ, the ripples were gone. So the morph I made in ZB was correctly applied in DS.
So, I don't know if simply removing the majority of scaling effect morphs before going to ZB via GoZ, or if the latest updates of DS and GoZ, have solved the problem. However, the problem appears to have been solved.
The extra screen shot you asked for is attached.
OK, thanks for the screenshot! Minor note on those options...When you go through GoZ and have the "Export With Deformations" option checked it knows that when you come back it needs to turn on the "Reverse Deformations" option, which is super cool. However, if you are updating an existing morph and you leave those options at that default setup it won't update properly. You actually need to also turn on the "Preserve Existing Deltas" option. Otherwise you get just the changes you made to the morph rather than the full result that you sculpted.
Anyway...The important thing is that you turned off scale and got the proper result. I'll bring that bug up with the programmers again, it's a bad one.
Thanks :)
Just a thought on your last point.
If I have a series of incremental changes (ie one new morph dial each time I come back from ZB), can I combine these morphs into a single morph? In other words, is there a way to combine morph dials into a single morph, other than exporting the figure as obj and then applying it to a new figure as a morph? (which of course combines every morph dial on the figure which is not normally what I want to do)
No, the only option at this point is to use the method you describe of exporting to OBJ.
OK, thanks again.
You can also try using Growing up for Genesis 3.. I believe it has a zero breasts dial. That might help you get closer to home.
http://www.daz3d.com/growing-up-for-genesis-3-bundle
There is also a few Alien morphs out there too. This morph might help.
http://www.daz3d.com/grey-alien-for-genesis-3-female
Though, the Gray Alien morph is a single full body morph "no seperate head dial". I really wished single body morphs by Vendors was a banned pactice.
It really limits the creativity of the user and makes it hery hard to get the head and body you want.
Hi Xzibit,
Due to the current problems associated with sending figures containing scaling morphs to ZB with GoZ (indicated above), I am leaning away from using morphs such as Growing Up and Shape Shift for creating new shapes. These morphs are good for creating the shape they were intended to but appliction of them in creating new and different shapes (for personal use only) is fraught with problems such as discussed above.
The same argument applies to the Grey Alien morph.
Regarding banning single whole figure morphs from various vendors, I also wish all vendors would provide separate head and body morphs as some do; single whole figure morphs do indeed limit their use. However, it is possible that that is precisely the intention of the vendors. Perhaps they don't want the head (or body) of their figure to be used independently. There is the argument that the more flexibility we as users have, with the figures we have already got, the less we will need new figures from the vendors. That may seem like a unkind suggestion but, afterall, all figure vendors are interested in the commercial aspects of modelling.
There is the fact that for some morphs, especially non-human/creature types, it is much easier to create as a whole and actually gives a better finished morph by NOT breaking it in separate body/head parts.
But, for me, I'll admit, for humans, it's a bit of laziness on my part if I don't break them into separate ones.
Here I'm assuming you mean that the effect of using only the head or only the body morph would not give as good effect as the two combined. This would make sense for extreme morphs and even may have an impact for less extreme morphs (eg a somewhat larger or smaller than normal head relative to the body).
As far as I understand in g3f at least, saving the head and body as separate morphs simply means saving two morphs; the head morph would be the whole figure where all the body morphs are zeroed and the body morph would be the whole figure where all the head morphs are zeroed. Is this correct? I have read that you can't save only the head or only the body obj if you want to use them as morphs for g3f. I raise this as it would have an impact on a question I have asked in another thread; see "Is there a way to isolate a single morph on G3f?" (also in Nuts n bolts).
If you are working with dialed morphs, yes, just zero out the body/head part and save. But if you are sculpting morphs you need to sculpt them separately and import them separately. But doing that is much harder to end up 'seamless' at the neck...or, like I often do...I end up on a roll and don't want to stop (yeah, yeah, I know...save often...). Yes, you have to import the entire model...you can't do 'parts'.
It's not impossible, by any means, it's just you need to consciously take the extra couple of steps to pause and do it. Either setting up (there are ways in modelling software to set up things to 'break' the sculpting up...shapekeys in Blender springs to mind as one way) before you start sculpting or make the effort to stop at certain points. There are other ways, in other software....it's just a matter of making sure you use them.
But for extreme morphs and creatures, even that tends to, at least for me, not create as 'nice' a morph as keeping it for everything at once.
One method for making the transition seamless is to build two morphs at first:
Then load both of those into DS, dial the head to -100%, export the result and load it back in as just the body morph. You can then toss the original morph that had both body and head combined. The head and body morph, when dialed together, will result in the exact same result as the original morph that was everything together.
I think that the idea was that if the head and body are supplied already as one morph, it is impossible to separate them. Is that true?
Not impossible...just very difficult.
Look at the Attenuate options in the Morph Loader Pro in the latest DS beta - I think you could do the splitting with that, though it would look ugly if there was major change of scale or orientation. to the upper figure.
Ah ha..so there is a way. I'll have to look into Attenuate and see how it works. I see that a head morph that includes a significant scale may make the head-neck area look distorted. However, I imagine that the way to correct this would be to apply the over or under sized head to a base g3f figure as a morph and then change the scale of the head until it matches once again with the body then export the whole figure as a morph. The resulting obj file can be reapplied to base g3f and then the standard scale morphs applied to this figure to achieve any head scaling you want (as this will also take the neck into account). Maybe a bit of smoothing would be necessary in ZB for an extreme morph.
I was thinking more of morphs that pushed the head forward, for example.
OK, but any morph that affects a whole body part in an identical/uniform way eg rotation, translation or scaling, can surely be "corrected" in ZB or Hexagon relatively easily. So then the actual detailed shape morph could be retained, I suppose.
Right...like I said early (maybe not so simply...) it's easier to start with everything set up separately for body/head than it is to break them apart after the fact...but yes, with enough work it is possible to do so. And the details for HOW to accomplish it vary for each modelling program used.
hi, what is current status of goz+with_deformations+scaling of individual actors? i had some ugly artefacts but could not find out why they appeared. it seemed some vertices walk in wrong direction on scaled actor..