Parenting during an animation?
hrpschrd
Posts: 180
I have a large group and multiple small groups. At 2 seconds, I want one of the small groups to attach to the large group and act with the large group. At 2 seconds, I moved the small group to be parented with the large group but as the anmiation continues past 2 seconds, the small group acts independently as if it were never parented. In the hierarchy, the small group is clearly part of the large group. Am I missing a step?
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Hello hrpschrd! You can use Fenrics ERC (Carrara Enhanced Remote Control) for this.
Usually you can get it here: http://fenric.com/wordpress/downloads/
But as I can see, his shop is closed. Anyone knows where to get it?
Hi Harpsichord !
If I understand well, you move a group in the tree during an animation ? (sorry if it is not exact, I speak french)...
When I have this case, I made two same projects, one for the two first second and one for the rest of the animation.
Hello Eddy,
I have ERC but I don't know how it works...
Here you can buy it:
http://www.daz3d.com/carrara-enhanced-remote-control
How to use:
http://carraracafe.com/articles/erc-made-easy-enhancing-facial-realism/
Parenting isn't animatable,.
You can split the action into two clips or use a different approach such as tracking a target helper object, or use an invisible duplicate.
If you add a target helper, make the small group track that helper,. then the position of the target helper object can be animated,.
you could also use a duplicate of the group,. which is parented to the large group ,. But Invisible. .. until needed,.
The invisible swap,. can be used for items being Picked up, Put down etc,...
There are always two items in the scene,. one is visible EG: ( a cup, on a table) ,. one is invisible EG: (in the figures hand),. until you need to swap them, by changing the visibility on a keyframe where the objects are in the same position.
Hope that makes sense
Thanks everyone; I will use the disappearing trick!
Uh, oh. I have one disappearing and one appearing at 2 seconds and the new one is a child of the large group. No matter whether it is a child of the main group or a child of a child of the main group, it does not move with the child or the group but stays independent. It would be like picking up the apple and it flys off into the ceiling instead of remaining in your hand.
I used this trick in this little clip a few years ago, there are two aliens, one with the flag and another without, just when the flag is planted, the first alien become transparent and the second one appears...
The trick is to have the group (or whatever) be in just the right spot at the time of parenting, so that the illusion is that they're the same object(s), like DuDu's video above, only in reverse.
So for your situation, duplicate the group at the 2 second mark and, while still at the 2 second mark, parent one of them to where it needs to be parented (like parenting the apple to the hand).
At this stage, if we now rewind the time line slowly, we'll see that one of the copies of the duplicated group stays put, while the other is indeed parented and looking all weird right now. This is what we want. So don't make any changes to the positioning of that parented group - we 'need' it to behave this way!
The final part of this illusion is to select the parented group and go to time 0:00 and deselect "Visible" check box to make it disappear. Now go back to the 2 second mark and check "Visible" to turn it visible, then back up one frame and make sure that "Visible" is unchecked. If it's checked, uncheck it.
Now select the duplicated group which is NOT parented. At the 2 second mark, uncheck "Visible", then back up one frame and recheck "Visible"... you should be good to go.
Here is an example of this illusion a few years ago, where Rosie grabs swords that were parented to her back and uses them in her hands. There are actually two sets of swords whose visibility is changed at just the right times!
Oh... back then, I went with a different approach, where I actually had two complete figure set-ups! LOL One with swords parented to her back, one with them parented to her hands, and just switched the visibility of the whole animation group! LOL
Fun to see how much we grow over the years, eh? ! :)
Are you trying to do something like this?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CjBe-U3PQuU
Dartanbeck: I did EXACTLY what you described. The first object is visible until 2s then invisible. The second is invisible until 2s then visible.
The problem is that the first object is not parented to anything and the second (a direct copy and renamed) is parented to a larger group. But the second object does not "stick" to the movement of the group but goes off another way. As if your swords did not "stick" to Rosie's hands. I assumed that all I had to do was drag the new object to be on top of the group (or a subgroup) and it would be parented and act in accordance with the larger group (which is spinning).
Gotcha!
In cases like that, I bring in a Target Helper Object or two (or more). and use that as the thing that the illusion gets parented to.
It's hard to tell exactly what needs to be done in situations that are spelled out in really vague terms, but I also understand that vagueness is often necessary... so no worries there.
Sometimes it might be easier to cheat - in that there really isn't any parenting going on at all... but just looks like there is. Discreet tweeners can be helpful too, since there is no in-between with them, but an instant change.
But back to the task at hand:
It might be an easy solution to use more groups. So if the larger group is spinning, form another group around that one that doesn't spin, but moves along x and y (perhaps even z) as needed. Then parent the illusion group mentioned earlier to that, instead of the one that is spinning.
I do stuff like that a lot.
If something has to spin, and it also has to move along some sort of path or arc or whatever, I'll create a new group around the spinning thing, so that I can move that outer group without the spin affecting the motion.
If the spin is supposed to affect the motion, and the parented thing is supposed to spin along with it, I'd put a Target Helper Object within the spinning group and perent the illusion group to that.
Physics, using a scoop-shaped mesh, even if it needs to have a 0% Alpha (invisible) shader applied to it, might be another way to go. But that would be more of a 3dage/evilproducer thing to work out.
Sorry if vague. I have a hierarchy of objects that are attached to each other in a chain. Each object has spin modifier so the chain looks like somebody holding the end of a snake and the snake is twisting and gyrating to get away. I would like the chain to pick up objects as it passes them and they stick and spin as well. Since just using the hierarchy of parent to child (ad naseum) is working well for the spinning motion, I just assumed that if I added a child to the chain it would stick. It doesn't. Perhaps I need to attach the invisible object to the chain at time = 0?
Well, if you parent it at time = 2.0, it will automatically attach at 0.0 as well, since parenting is not animateable. But by doing it at time = 2:00, we'll get the placement of the parented object to hold that spot, not controlled by the spinning. But what I didn't take into acount was the fact that the spinning is being controlled by the Spin modifier... so I have a feeling that the modifier is messing with the placement at the time of parenting, by going back to 0:00 and spinning it.
Try this. Select the part of the chain that you want the other thing to become parented to at time = 2 (so that we know which one it is), then back up to time = 0 and add a target helper object to that. In that I mean: Insert the TargetHelperObject and parent it to the part of the chain, back at time = 0:00
Now, like we were originally trying to do, with the illusion of visible/invisible, try parenting the newly visible thing to the target helper object at time = 2:00 - just like we were trying to do from the start.
The THO doesn't need to be anywhere near the parented thing at time = 2:00, we're just trying to use it as a pin to attach the object or group to at that specific time, so that it ends up at the right spot at the right time for the illusion to work.
Keep in mind that - if this works, it will only continue to work if the spin modifier doesn't change. If you need to edit the spin, you'll have to repeat the whole parenting to the THO process from the beginning again. No biggie... just something to be aware of.
Yikes... I was just thinking about this dilema and, there's something I must add to the above:
If the Spin modifier is on the Group itself (the one I wanted you to try adding the Target Helper Object too), then we don't want to actually put the THO inside that group, or it, too, will cause the same affect that you're seeing now.
So to correct this, we'd want to Insert the THO, place it where you want it to be (at time=0:00) and, instead of dropping it into the appropriate group, select it (THO) and then the Group, and then Ctrl G to group them together - so that the Spin modifier still affects the THO, but is not attached to it directly ;)
Sorry if this sounds confusing....
When you're parenting an item,. it's really important to make sure that the "object" being parented to a group of other objects,. is parented to the specific object,. not just part of the group.
Example :
You have a figure (a model made of parts,. eg: head, arms, hands, legs,feet.)
You have an object you want to parent to that figure,. (a hat)
You need to drag the "hat" object,. and drop it onto the "Head" of the figure. (to parent the Hat to the Figures Head)
wherever the figure moves,. then the hat HAS to move with the part of that figure it's parented to.
If you parent the HAT to the main Figure GROUP,. then the hat cannot follow the motion of the figures head,. since it's not parented to that part of the figure.
So,. Parenting within a group,. has to be specific,..
If the object is moving. (using a modifier) then you need to set keys for that modifier to make it remain static until ,... You need the modifier to efect the model.
3DAGE: Yes, I parented the hat to the head, so to speak, and I set keys to be static until 2 seconds when it becomes attahced. it still loses it's parent.
I am going to try Dartenbeck's ideas as soon as I can figure them out. It seems like someone must have figured this out before considering the many complex animations out there in Carrara!
HI,. Maybe i'm explaining thiis wrongly,.
Parenting cannot be animated,.
Items which are parented should not have seperate animation from the parent . there shoudl be no need to create static animation on a parented object,. it should move as part of the parent object,.
It's not possible for a Child item which is parented,. to loose it's parent,. the heirarchy cannot change.
the items which are parented can be hidden,. until it's needed.
What you may have is an animated child object,. and it's moving out of position from the parent object,. because it's animated.
Think of a figure with a box,. walking along,. the motion of the box is controlled by the motion of the figure,. in this case the Box is the child of the figure, the figure is the parent.
If the box is animated then it's motion will be different from the motion of the figure,. despite the fact that the object is parented to the figure.
For a Hat,. parented to a figures head,. the parenting should be done on frame 0,. not at any other point in the animation
parenting cannot be animated,. it doesn't work that way.
an item is either parented to another object,.. or not,..
there's no ability to animate the parenting,.. or un parenting of objects
the child object should generally be animated by the movement of the parent,. it's the main controller,. although there can be some room for animating the child object,. to add wobble or small rotational movements.
apart from that,.. the child object should have no major animation.
Hope that makes sense :)
Exactly. So with that said, we use a 'dummy' of the child object to simulate the 'appearance' of the change in parenting - even though nothing of the sort actually happens.
example :
this little guy carries a gear and places it on the ground.
there are two gears,.
One is parentwed to the figures hands.
the other is on the ground.
as the gear is placed down,. it is made invisible,. and the one on the ground is made visible, at the same keyframe.
3DAGE, Seemless. Is the parented tire, now invisible, still parented to the figure or can it now be un-parented?
You can't unparent an object, so it will still be there, albeit invisible. That's why you have to do this switching of visible objects - I liken it to a magician's slight of hand trick!
Yes ,. that's exactly what it is,. a magic trick,. or an illusion,.
the parented object is always parented ,. it just dissappears ,.
the other object on the ground is always there,. it just appears at the same time as the other one vanishes.
Jus like that
Yes. It's the same thing with the swords in my example earlier. Perhaps this example may help too:
For my characters whom have a gun in a holster, they actually (always) have two guns parented to them.
In their default saved state, they are in a relaxed, standing pose, with the gun in the holster visible, so the one parented to the hand in invisible.
It's always like that for me. When ever I set up a character - if they have a useable prop on their costume, like a sword, knife, gun, radio, whatever, I load both the one that gets parented to the costume as well as the one that gets parented to the hand.
Since their both the same geometry, I consolidate their shaders right away before optimizing them to save on resources.
Then I immediately set the hald-held version to invisible.
Since it's left in the default parented position as loaded in from the runtime, when the hand pose is applied, the object is perfectly in the proper position.
I set these things up like this so that they're always ready for the anomation phase - but it's also very useful for still renders... just switch out which is visible.
Ah, our American friends (and other nationalities) won't get the reference, but I appreciate it! Glass, bottle, bottle glass...
I am back with a problem.
3DAGE shows a "trick" of having two identical objects. One disapears, and the parented one appears. This works.
However, my "child" object diverges from my parent with time. It is parented at 0 sec and becomes visible at 8.5 sec but has already pulled away somewhat. Should one not have the child in the timeline until it appears? That would mean it is not parented until it appears?
What I tend to do is to start with one object, do the animation up to where you want the object parented and then duplicate it, and parent the second object on that frame. It will diverge before that, but it will be invisible. This method ensures that when the change occurs, the two objects are at exactly the same place and orientation.
Hi Phil. I like your Learning Carrara videos, by the way.
I am not sure what you are saying here. "It will diverge before that" is not clear to me.
- The duplicated object begins its existence at the moment the original object disapears?
- The dup is parented at that instant and not before?
I will try that again. Had trouble with that previously but I will be careful with it and see.
YES, that works well.
Question: Does it matter if I not continue the original object that is now invisible from the rest of the timeline after it has been "replaced"?
You don't need to do anything further with the object which becomes invisible, but you can't delete it as that will clear from the scene entirely.
And thanks for the kind words on the videos!
A "parented" object should not move,. it's parented to the figure,. so,. it's motion is dependent on the figure.
so,. if you're saying that over time, the parented item is moving away from the object it's parented to,. then you need to look at the timeline for the parented item, make sure there are no unwanted keyframes.
or,.. look at the part of the object the item is parented to,. for example
If I parented an item (a hat) to a figure's "hip",. then animated the figure,. that hat wouldn't move correctly,. the Hat should be parented to the figures Head.
parenting to the appropriate body part is important for maintaining position during an animation.
The child object should be parented on the First keyframe of an animation,. and since it's either visible or invisible,. it shouldn't interfere with anything else you're doing in that animation.
the "child objects" should remain parented to the figure throughout the entire animation,. whether they are visible or invisible.
The second "other object" (Unparented duplicate of the parented prop) doesn't need to be parented to anything,. (unless you want that) EG: handing over an object to another figure..
Parenting should be set at the beginning of the animation.
I'm not sure why you would Parent an item during the animation. or what advantage that would give you
you can parent as many items as you desire to an object,. EG:(Multiple hats),.. and make them Visible / Invisible as required,.
there should be no need to "change" the parent to another figure,. just make duplicates and parent to as many figures as you need, ...then make them visible /invisible as required
Hope that helps :)