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You should see someone about the hallucinations you're having.
As a 3D paint program. I've used it a couple times and it has worked well if the objs/3ds are well formed. It doesn't seem to work so well if the models are very large or badly formed. But, when it works, it seems to work pretty well for painting directly on the model. Can zoom in/out, do detail or large areas quickly... and create some pretty complex/detailed texture maps directly on the models.
You mean creating textures or as a 3D Paint program?
Personally, I'd love to see a DAZ Studio GIMP Bridge!
Excellent responses!!!! Thank you everyone, most appreciated.
I am fairly new to uvmapping and alot of what was said about the different types of alogarithims and technical terms is over my head. The reason I never learned UVmapper free is that I didn't need to. When I started modelling with Hexagon I needed to learn to create templates and learned what I could in Hex because I was already in the program.
Because I'm so new to uvmapping a few things confuse me. How can you uvmap parts in different programs to have one complete set of uvmaps? Do you uvmap one part of an object, save it out as an OBJ then open it in another and uvmap part of it there then save it out again as an OBJ (exporting with uvmaps)? Not understanding this is what has kept me from exploring other programs.
I'm familiar enough now with the basic Hexagon uvmapping that I understand how it would work in other programs, though I have to admit that I've never welded anything yet...just watched some videos on it.
...let's keep this a friendly thread, I appreciate everyone's opinions and information, though they may differ. Thanks muchly
The fine points of mapping can be extremely confusing to the uninitiated. While the concept seems simple, the devil is in the details.
First and foremost, you should understand that UV mapping is done in order to apply textures to a model.
One thing that confuses many people is that you can assign colors to meshes without having a UV map, but you cannot apply textures without a UV map.
When a mesh is first created, it has no UV map.
If you create a cube in hex and save it as an obj file, you can read it with a text editor. You'll see that the cube only contains vertices ("v ") and facets ("f ").
A UV map can be created in many ways by various programs (including hex), but once mapped, that information is written to the OBJ file.
If you look at the same cube after it's been mapped, you'll see that a new set of coordinates (marked "vt ") have been written to the OBJ file. The "vt" stands for "texture vertices" (the initials are reversed, but that''s what it means. :) ).
Basically, a mesh model is a bunch of points in 3D space, and a UV map is a 2D map of those points spread out and flattened.
Any programs that subsequently read in that OBJ file also read in its UV map.
Since some mapping programs do things better than others, a user may map his mesh in one program and tweak it in another.
One aspect of mapping that confuses many people is that multiple maps can be created for different parts of a model using the same 2D space.
If you open a typical Poser model in a mapping program, you'll see that the map is a big jumble of meshes. The head for instance, is mapped using the same 2D space as the body. In order to work on the head by itself, you have to "hide" the body, and vice versa.
I only hope I've made things clearer for you rather than leaving you more confused, but I'll be happy to answer any further questions you may have. :)
No, you did not confuse me. I do understand that all the mapped parts can occupy the same space. When I select my entire object after mapping in Hex and look at the resultant uvmap view I can see all the parts ontop of each other. It is understanding how to select just part of the object for mapping in other programs like UVmapper. I'm sure it's a matter of learning to use the software and many pointers have been listed in the thread so far.
Using multiple mappers is where I am getting confused. If I start by mapping in Hexagon, then I take that kitty-whampus shaped map on my object into UVmapper I still have a misshaped uvmap and have to tweak it. Sounds like starting with a different mapper is the answer. Do I understand that correctly?
I am going to download all the softwares mentioned and try each one of them to see how they respond to one of my models. Then I'll know which is more to my liking. I really wanted Hexagon to be my 'do_all' program but it's not to be and doubt that there is a version 3 in the works. If I keep modelling I need to put some real effort into learning better mapping programs because hex isn't cugoing to do it.
About PS for 3D texturing: Saw some videos on this and it's interesting that it can do that but I thought the results were rather crude. Assume that they will keep improving on it.
Yup! You understand perfectly! :)
I think DaremoK3 gave a pretty good review of the most popular mapping utilities out there (http://www.daz3d.com/forums/viewreply/10528/), and it may be very useful to you as a guide in your endeavors.
One thing that "bothers" me though, is that my gut tells me that hexagon's mapper is probably a highly capable mapping engine, and I wonder if the problems we encounter are actual "bugs" or if they're due to poor documentation. Again, Tramp may know more about unraveling these problems than any of us, so you might keep him in mind as well.
Ugh, I had to download and install Chrome to be able to login to the forum.
Have a question about mapping.
I am in Hexagon and am making multiple copies of the same object. I usually uvmap the object before making copies so that they all have the same uvmap...only have to map once, very handy.
If I use a different uvmapper will I then have to uvmap each individual object?
About the possibility that my inexperience is causing some of my problems, it is very possible. I have not ever changed the u and v orientation of the pinning before. I have for the seams but not pins. And thinking about it now, I have only changed the u and v orientation for seams on the whole object, not for individual seams. This is a good place to experiment. I'm in the middle of a creation so I'll have ample opportunity to give it a try.
Another "devil in the details" question... :lol:
Let's suppose you make a cube in hexagon and map it. Assume the cube's "group" name is "cube", and the material name is "mat".
Now let's say you duplicate the cube so that you have 2 cubes in your scene (each cube being a sparate "group"), and you save that as an OBJ file.
There are 3 ways to save this file:
#1) Both groups are named identically, say "cube" and "cube", AND their respective materials are identically named "mat" and "mat".
#2) Each cube is named differently, say "cube1" and "cube2", and their respective materials are identically named "mat" and "mat".
#3) Both groups are named identically, say "cube" and "cube", but their respective materials are named differently to "mat1" and "mat2".
In #1, both materials are coincident, and behave as a single UV map. If you alter that map, it changes for both cubes.
Also, if you select by "group", both materials are also selected, and vice versa. The materials (UVs) in this case can't be separated.
In #2, the materials are initially coincident, and altering the UV selected "by material" will change the UVs for both cubes.
HOWEVER - since the cubes are named differently, you can select each cube "by group" and the selected UV will belong ONLY to that cube.
You can select "by group" cube1, shrink its own "mat" down and stick it in the upper left corner of the mapping space, and you can take the "mat" UV for cube2, shrink it down and stick it in the lower right corner of the mapping space. Or you can arrange them left and right or top and bottom of the mapping space. Hereafter, they are no longer coincident and can be worked on separately, but selecting "by material" will select both UVs anyway because both materials have the same name.
In #3, you can do the same thing but inversely: Although the materials are initially coincident, you can select "mat1" by itself and move it and do the same with "mat2" so that they're no longer coincident, but if you select "by group", both UVs are selected because both groups have the same name.
In both #2 and #3, once the UVs have been separated, they can also be individually manipulated by selecting their own vertices or faces.
ADD:
After re-reading, I should add that obviously there's a 4th way of saving: both groups named differently and both materials named differently.
In this case, everything is individually selectable, and selecting a material will only select it's associated cube, and selecting a cube will only select it's associated material.
So in this case, both the UVs will initially be coincident, and while you can select the vertices or faces and manipulate them together as though they were one, the 2 are not "locked" together as they are in some of the above cases, and must be considered as separate UVs.
Just got back in from planting in my garden and it's almost time to Skype with my co-worker. No time to ask all my questions but I'll be back.
You say 'duplicate'...does that clone? I always use copy and paste so that I don't get clones.
I used IE this morning twice and had no issues but when I came back the third time it wanted me to login. I clicked on 'login' and it took me to my dashboard. I used the links back to the thread and it said to login. Around and around and around. I had to call Daz3d and Joan told me to try Chrome. Did the trick.
Same thing. Copy'n'paste or the copy tool both create "clones".
Good to see you are getting something out of your thread Burpee.
I'm a very visual person, so I would like to see screen-shots if you could, please.
To add to the great info afreaginname has shared, you are starting to get into the realm of "styles" (see, this is why we should have a 101 where everyone can share).
What "I" mean about styles is there are different mapping algorithms one can pick to map different objects, groups, or even mat zones within a model for a map, but mapping styles has to do with convention, and personal likes in map completion. A for example:
*Game modeling/mapping - Generally, mapping for games is about resource footprint, and optimizing the map to the fullest. So, for example, a human character is mirror/stacked map on the X axis to allow for optimal painting space, and packed tight (no pixel buffer) for optimal non-wasted map space. This is fine, and many people even map this style for Poserverse, but there are some caveats to this type of mapping, and one must no when (or even why) to map this way.
For gaming, no end user (besides modders) are messing with the mesh, or the maps, and they are optimized for real-time rendering. But, and this includes modders, one can not have separate textures on any part of the mesh (in fact, it is usually one group/mat-zone). This means one could not have, say, a blue eye, and a green eye. Or, an eagle tattoo on the right arm without it on the exact same spot on the left arm.
The reason I bring this up is because this is what you are attempting to do; Stacked (non-mirrored) UV islands, which have their uses, but you need to decide if you are mapping these parts this way via convention to save map space, or because you don't know any better, and someone convinced you this is how you are supposed to map identical items (i.e. wood-planks, pillars, brick-walls, car-rims, pencils, or what-have-you).
Like I said, this style definitely has it's uses, and is a big resource saver, but, hypothetically, let's say you are creating something like a building, or court-yard walls. Now, let's say that someone (or yourself, if you aren't making content for others) wants to add graffiti to one wall, or bullet holes (including custom displacement) to another. Well, because of the stacked islands every wall will display the same graffiti, or bullet holes (and all in the exact same space).
If you never plan on releasing to the public (who love to modify), or you don't plan to alter your textures (even though each textured part will be identical) then it is a very good style to use. Personally, I never stack islands like this, because I believe in part diversity, and one may never know when they might need to alter texture map sets to suit a desired scene.
Take care all...
Ken
A few more examples of UV mapping styles:
*Stacked island multi-maps (what afreaginname was talking about) - A good example of this is V4/M4. V4 has seven UV maps stacked on top of one another. One would extrapolate each individual map to be individually painted on. UVMapper Classic (and Pro) is good for this, but can be done in others like my favorite, Dimension 3D's UV Viewer.
In UVMC you hide all except the islands which make up one particular map, and then save out a texture map (whatever size needed). Only caveat is you have to remember to check "exclude hidden facets" in the save dialog.
*Multiple objects/one UV map - This does not mean multiple objects that comprise of one mesh, but multiple meshes (which may, or may not be comprised of multiple objects) all sharing one UV map. Example would be a sword pack with seven swords. Some of Valandar's (DAZ PA) work uses this style, and I have recently started to adopt it as well.
These are only a couple of examples of different styles one can employ to create their maps.
Please feel free to share other styles you use, have seen, or better yet, your own personal style you would like to share with us.
Take care all...
Ken
Here is an example of a poorly mapped mesh, and then re-mapped correctly with low distortion flattening. It is a freebie I created, and added the poor/quick mapping at last second. Luckily, I neglected to replace the original OBJ, and just included the maps. Surprising that no one ever noticed (or tried to add a texture map apparently). This is the pendant I was referring to a few posts back that I have now re-mapped to five separate new maps. I will show two of the five below.
One good thing I learned with this was it is never good to planar map a mesh after Poser placement finalization with altered scale/translation/rotation. Rotation screwing up the 90 degrees planar projection planes. It was easily rectified, and now I know better.
- The top two are from first mapping a couple years back. I did quick planar mapping in UVMapper Classic. I created a separate map for each individual main parts of the pendant, so there are two maps. The cord connector map is 1024, and the pendant map is 2048.
- The last two picks are two of the five new low-to-no distortion re-maps.
Take care all...
Ken
admkrk:
Every time I see your name I read as "Admiral Kirk". How far off the mark am I?
Anyways, you mentioned a few posts back if anyone was actually mapping from scratch, or only re-mapping others works. I do a little of both. Of course, I have to map my own projects (since FireAngel convinced me everything needs to be mapped regardless if they are only going to get material shaders), but I also map others work, because, let's face it, some work out there needs it.
Here is an example of a badly needed re-map from my Poser4 catalog. No disrespect to the creator intended. It was a freebie, but even freebies need to strive to have proper mapping (nowadays that is. We let so much slide a decade ago).
First two pics are the original. The third pic is my first re-map a couple years back. I re-mapped it two more times, once in Roadkill, and then my final in UVLayout (can't agree with you more, one of the greatest mappers around). I will post pics of the other two in their own posts. To be continued...
Take care all...
Ken
Continued from previous post...
Here is the second re-mapping. I cut the islands to resemble real world clothing patterns. The creator did not design it with realistic seam lines in mind, so I cut in edge loops at the sides. Wings 3D for initial unwrapping. Roadkill for final flattening. It does have some issues I was not happy with (hence the third re-map).
Take care...
Ken
*EDIT: Pictures loaded out of order, and don't know how to correct (Mods, help please). Bad forums... Bad...
Continued from previous post…
Here is the third, and final re-mapping. Simple re-flattening of second re-map in UVLayout (already had map the way I wanted it).
Take care…
Ken
A lot of people think of Adam, but you got it right.
There is nothing wrong with creating textures for someone else's work as long as they don't mind. Remapping generally means producing a new .obj which can piss some off pretty bad. I assume any projects here are original works unless otherwise specified. FireAngel is right though, even if you only plan to use shaders, it's a good idea to UV map the project anyway.
Nice job on the relax btw, I assume that is the difference between the payed and free version? I never had such distinct stretching since all I generally only do inorganic models.
Wow, long weekend. Hubby went fishing at Lake Erie with the guys and the weather was so bad they never got out. He came home early and messed up my nice, quiet weekend to myself :)
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So, I'm back. I too thought of Admiral Kirk but I'm a huge early Star Trek fan. Always watched reruns when I got home from work. I want a tribble.
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About mapping, first let me thank you for the excellent information you shared D. You make mapping look easy.
Two things, firstly I always map every piece of my object even when I'm using shaders. You never know when someone will want to texture one of my products.
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Because I started as a texturer I try to keep the number of uvmaps down to a reasonable number and at the same time I want some surfaces to be more prominent on the map so that I can get certain details crisp and clean on the texture.
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I do tend to stack because I am trying to save space. Many of the products coming out today are huge in size, with many pieces. If I do textures with many color and design choices then you end up with another huge sized package. My runtimes are filling up my computer FAST. I have to wonder what customers are doing. I will soon have to put some of my runtimes onto external drives. Space is a big concern of mine and I felt that perhaps others might feel the same way so I consider it when I create.
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I'm usually embarrassed to show what I'm working because I'm self concience about it. I'm creating a pavillion bundle that will work with the TerraDome and will include a TerraDome landscape with bridge and creek, or more likely a small pond with lily pads. I've got two pavillions done so far. I did map them entirely in Hex. I found that the x, y and z helped me find the right mapping for each piece, and of course, putting the seams in the right place. I'm also finding that the relax tool is useful sometime though I'm not exactly sure what it actually does....I mean what function is is actually calculating.
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I stacked the posts, curtains, rings, knots, joists, bolts, beams, etc, etc. On an octagon shaped building with 7 curtains it would take a huge number of uvmaps to do each separately. Customers will not be able to make one post yellow and one post blue. I'd like to know what customers thinking about that. As a customer myself I usually use what is supplied in the package. If I don't like a material I usually add one of my own or tweak the existing but I had never thought about making separate pieces different colors. Perhaps I should be considering it.
Hi burpee
Just trying to get a handle on the last paragraph - see if I'm understanding correctly.
If I make a column (post?) in Hex, UV map it and make duplicates, they would all have identical UV templates, but each on its own grid. When you say you stack them, do you mean layering them in your 2d painting app? Don't see how they could be stacked in Hex, but always open to learning.
I use Ultimate Unwrap, which treats the entire Hex .obj export as a single object, with each mesh as a group. The UV templates would be automatically stacked, but they can be separated out in Hex, Carrara or MapMagic so they could each be individually textured, if the user so wishes.
Was thinking that I was done with this and found that I deleted the bottom floor base and had not finished uvmapping.
The first image shows the uvmaping of the top beam, both floor bases and the inner roof. Each is separate so that I can texture each separately. There are only 4 total objects on this map.
the second shows the hexagonal pavillion with those parts highlighted.
The third shows the curtains highlighted. There are 5 curtains on this uvmap, one ontop of the other. When this gets textured all curtains will have the same texture. That's what I mean when I say stacking.
The 4th image shows the curtains moved around and some made smaller so that you can see that there is more than one curtain.
So I take it you don't make, say, one curtain, map it and then make multiple copies. Seems to me you make one, copy it, weld all then UV map each mesh separately - that would get them all onto one grid where you can stack them?
No, I do make one copy, uv map it then make my copies. That way I only have to uv map identical items once. That's why the copies are all on top of one another and it looks like just one copy.
Edit: I make a copy and paste, not a clone. Above someone said it was the same but I am not sure about that. Clones have the 'C' icon next to them and when you change one, you change them all. Copy and paste makes separate objects. If I make a change to one it does not affect the others.
That was I who said it, and you're right about the "c" icon referring to a "clone" copy.
Let me backpedal to the extent that copying an item is identical to copy'n'pasting an item - both of these produce a single identical copy of the original item, and are not "clones" within the context of "hex-speak".
"Clones" are produced by the "copy on a support" tool, which produces multiple copies of the original item along a guideline. With this setup, altering any clone produces the same alteration on all the clones.
By simply copying or copy'n'pasting an item, each item is a separate entity, each of which may be altered separately without affecting the other.
ADD:
I just doublechecked and learned something...You can indeed "clone" an object using the copy tool. I've never done that, so I guess I wasn't looking for it. But "clone off" is the default state of the tool, and you have to actually set it to "clone" in order to clone an item.
So if you want to make copies and not clones using the copy tool, just make sure the mode icon is set to "clone off", and you're good to go!
There's still an advantage to copy'n'paste, though...it's often faster and easier! :-)
yep, old habits die hard and I know myself. I make mistakes so the copy and paste is safest for me. I can just imagine making the clones then changing one and thinking all is fine just to see that they all changed. Would be just like me, lol.
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I just started the square pavillion and used the 'copy on a supoprt'. I have used it for all of them so far. I didn't realize they were clones that I made. There's no 'C' next to them but perhaps it's how I treat them after I make them.
I probably will not investigate the other uv mappers until I finish this product. I don't want to stop and learn to use other softwares while I'm working on this. I will, however, use one of them as a test when I do look into how they function and work.
Thank you for opening my eyes to a whole new - to me - procedure.
In fact, Hex can only make one map per grid, so I couldn't understand how you were stacking them. After some messing about, I found two methods of getting a texture onto multiple copies.
First method - If you have identical copies with identical maps and only one material then load a texture image onto one, it copies across all copies.
Second - if you select all the identical items, the maps overlay each other perfectly, making it look like being stacked - if you then export that map, texture it and import the texture, they are all textured at once.
Very cunning http://www.daz3d.com/forums/smileys/#
That's cool :)
I don't texture inside of Hex because I don't know how to make that relate the texture jpg for Poser. I make a bmp of the uvs in Hexagon then take them into my 2D programs and make jpgs for the textures folder. I've watched videos of texturing inside Hexagon but I don't understand after doing it how to make it into a jpg for Poser.
Hey Burpee, Your pavilion looks great.
I was thinking about what you asked regarding customers, and as a customer I think you can keep your stacked mapping, and satisfy customers like me who like to alter the defaults by simply assigning each individual stacked island (pole, curtain, etc.) a separate Mat/Shader zone.
You can still assign all of them to one texture (your default), but a customer would have an easy choice to modify or create a new texture (a giant smiley on curtain islands, for example), and only assign it to the ones they wish to modify while keeping the default texture assigned to the rest. It's a win-win situation. You get resource saving maps/textures, and your customers get to modify the product if their work calls for it.
Keep up the good work, take care...
Ken
Thanks DaremoK3, glad to know that it will work to the customer's advantage. I'm always trying to learn. I just seem to learn at such a slow pace while everyone else speeds past me.
Space isn't as big of a concern as it used to be but HDD prices have been going up for the last couple years to promote sales on SSD so it's catching back up.