Figure + Hair dead horse me thinks...
Griffin Avid
Posts: 3,764
Was a reply to another thread- decided to create a new thread after all....
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I was about to start a 'complaint' thread about how figures should come with hair. It's almost false advertising to not show them bald. lol
But the hair makes such a difference!
Yes, that's exactly why.
Maybe even a Lemon Tree haircut would do, but something should come with the figure...
There could even be a daz default mop-top that comes in several colors or lengths.
Anything to get us going.
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I have wayyyyy more people than haircuts and no matter how much I change the face, the hair becomes the quickest identifer between characters.
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Yes, it's a different technology for hair than facial morphs.. I get that.
And because hair has no morph options, it becomes very limiting as a product.
I can change clothes, can't keep the same hair and make different styles.
Or similar-looking hair products and pick the same color, if it's offerered as a material.
Bought this today.
Hair probably costs three times as much as the figure.
Doesn't say what was used to make the ad-art. Someone would be right in thinking she came as is. Since it's also the same set of stuff in every shot.
When you get that bald, naked figure in the crucifix, you can't help but start off disappointed. lol.
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Comments
I feel your pain, avxp. When you see some of the advertising pix you think wow.. when you open the product you think... hmmm how on earth am I going to get this to look anything like the promo pic.
However we should not be too hard on the PAs here, there are several factors to consider.
Using your example of a figure with no hair supplied:
1) The figure artist may be a terrible hair artist. Same applies to the clothes worn in the promo pic.
2) Yes, all figures could come with bog standard hair and overalls, but that would not show the figure off to its best and these will almost certainly not be the items we use when making our renders.
3) A lot of the "wow" factor in promo pictures comes from the fact that the PA knows how to make good renders. Lighting is absolutely critical. In fact some PAs do provide lighting set ups which can produce good renders with just a few clicks. However, we can not blame the PA for being able to make better renders than the purchaser.
4) Adding decent hair and clothes to every new character would increase the cost. This would probably mean that most PAs would need to form colaborative groups to produce new packages. (Some do this anyway! Making a good skin texture requires a whole different skill set than modelling a new figure.)
Given that it is virtually impossible to have complete scene setups with each new figure, as well as being unnecessary and for most people undesirable as they may not want all the extra stuff. Then we are stuck with a new character being just a figure with skin textures (hopefully for all parts of the body!!)
However, what would be really useful is if the PAs would make a list of credits for items used in their promo images but not included in the package. I know it's a bit of a chore for the PA but it would really help those of us who want to recreate that "wow" factor in our own renders. Even here there is a problem. Whilst DAZ3d may be very happy to have a list of DAZ3d items used in each promo, they may not be so keen to advertise products from other stores.
Still, I think DAZ3d should build in to the shop advertising system the opportunity for PAs to list credits for at least all the DAZ3d items used in promo pics, as is done at R'osity (even if it is not always used).
You can always keep asking the Help Desk what items are used in promo pics, maybe they will get the message that people really do want to know and do something about it.
Most PAs do make lists of what is used, but sometimes the promotional images that are initially submitted are not the same as the ones used in the store. Also, sometimes the PA has someone else do the promotional images for them and those people don't list what is usrd.
There is one PA that does at least sometimes include hair with a figure; 3D Universe. However, I don't think the reason it's not commonly done is because the PAs don't want to learn how to make it, but rather they don't want to limit the creativity of the buyer by including something that may not fit with what the figure gets used fo.
Not to forget that including 2 products instead of just one would double the price, or more than double the price probably, as hair is difficult to make and can be costly.
Valea has several character plus hair sets, and there is at least one hair for each of the Genesises in the Starter Essentials as I recall (not sure baout all of the males). The What's Included listing will tell you what each product includes.
The Genesis / Genesis 2 / Genesis 3 males only have buzz cut texture options for hair if I remember correctly and to be fair, it's the most realistic hair option in the DAZ Store, male or female.
they don't want to limit the creativity of the buyer by including something that may not fit with what the figure gets used fo.
Inverse thinking. How can I ever be limited by having MORE resources for any product. Limiting is selling me a "new figure/person" and I am LIMITED to only use the haircuts/wigs I already own or buy more...
Not to forget that including 2 products instead of just one would double the price, or more than double the price probably, as hair is difficult to make and can be costly.
Inverse thinking. Buying a figure and buying the hair separately IS 2 products. Putting them together is a bundle, which you can discount.
http://www.daz3d.com/fw-hillary-hd-for-genesis-3-female
This is her.
1) She's listed as costing $19.95. I paid $9.78. Double that for the hair, included, is only FULL PRICE of the figure.
2) A search for Genesis 3 hair didn't show up that exact match, but any comparable hair was $19.95. Same as the figure. Reduce it the same way and voila, FULL PRICE for 1 item gets me BOTH.
absolutely simple and doable. If you have a large library of hair (for men and women) I could see being glad to get it for less, bald. But I'll go out on a limb and and say there's probably no one on here who thinks they have too many hair choices.
The What's Included listing will tell you what each product includes.
It should tell you what's NOT included. What's grossly assumed as coming with your purchase. Clothes are a stretch to assume you're going to get all that attire, but HAIR. My goodness, man HAIR. How does it make sense to sell bald figures? She comes with make up. She...comes...with..make up, but not hair? C'mon, don't be the person who just thinks "Things are fine as they are and Daz knows best"
If everyone is tripping over the same object, maybe it's time to move the object instead of hoping a newbie can fully understand the "store description system." That's like watching me laying there after I've fallen and saying, well you do know you can trip over things, right? It's your fault, be more careful next time.
Toys do it. It says on the box. Batteries sold separately. Even the gallery artists, here, break down what they used to make their scenes. But somehow that's too much to expect from a VENDOR? Really? I don't care who made you promotional material. The store can easily make that a requirement. Put something in the picture, mention it in the description. What more evidence do we need -> that a change is in order. How many posts do you need to see of BUYERS asking WHERE the stuff in their product's promo images can be found?
If this place is primarily a STORE then the CONSUMER is the most important. Daz doesn't need to cater to the Vendors, artists, modelers, web masters, forum mods, coders etc....
They need to cater to the cu$tomer. No, I'm not saying DO WHATEVER THEY WANT and damn common sense, but there's plenty of room to move on some of these concerns- especially if you're going to have everyone talk about how important sales and making money is.
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I am not the best customer. I do buy something almost every day. I am a plat club member. I do hawk these forums and try to be active in this community.
I know art and I know about selling things. I also know what makes me spend and what makes me empty my cart.
I am that new guy in love with Daz. I WORK MY BRAIN HARD to find an excuse to buy something. I tell myself....
- get it NOW before the price goes up.
- You'll render something using that someday and be glad you bought it on sale now.
- you can break it up and use it in pieces ...
- spend that extra $10 and save $20 so overall I SAVED more than I SPENT. lol
- You deserve to splurge every so often. I work hard for the money.
- OMG full price is XX and my membership gets it for XX....I can't pass that up!
- With ALL THIS VALUE and FREE STUFF and DISCOUNTS you'd be spending so much more so it's okay to add, yet another $XXXX in the cart.
- I'll slow down next month.
- I'm just going to window shop and see what it would cost in the cart.
- WOWZA look at that promo art! I want to make stuff(s) like that!
So now the rub sets in.
I, or somebody who knows more, need to write a Daz buyers survival guide - especially for the store cause there ain't one.
I've learned all I've learned the hard way, by, buy..a'hem by wasting money.
- Genesis - nope, one size does NOT fit all. Better learn what the genesis generations mean and why auto-fit will not always save you.
- In the picture, not in the package. There's a scene being sold now that I emptied out of my cart because it comes with NOTHING. Every prop featured is a separate purchase (from the same vendor). So yes, I've learned to read the bottom and count the props and make sure that the cool item (that I must add to my library) is in the package. Poses too. I have a spider that comes without any poses. It came stretched out and I had to learn all the posing stuff on the fly. Wasn't fun.
- A new figure that's not a figure. You are buying dial settings, not a new person. The hint is in the cost, mostly. So seeing that "for Jennifer 22" needs to be understood fully. It's actually NOT a good deal to spend that much for a slight facial variation- if it included the hair and other distinctive markings- like the body paint or tats or a new skin texture, yeah. But some things that look like new figures are small morphs with a wig {not included lol}, in actuality.
- The Required Item listing isn't always accurate. There's an item that requires a morph. On the main sale item page it tells you you need the facial morph (owned yay). On the facial Morph page it tells you you need an additional body morph. I only know this because when I loaded the figure, I got a message about missing files/options and it may not work as expected. That made me go back to the product pages and see what I WAS NEVER TOLD I NEEDED TO BUY.
FWSA Dayna HD for Eva 7 is on sale. (anyone know what the FWSA stands for?)
My goodness $7.95 for me. Added instantly to the cart. Says compatible withe Genesis 3.
Required Product Eva 7.
so....Eva 7 is the base model.$44.95 on sale for $31.47
Do I really need to buy Eva 7? What do I get with Eva 7? Shouldn't I be able to use these morphs with my Genesis 3 base figure and make a Dayna?
What do I lose by not owning Eva 7? Should I buy Dayna anyway - without Eva?
- Rendering engine is not always a bonus option, sometimes it's the ONLY option. There's a difference between optimized for iRay and iRay. lol Some products have both material options, some do not and mixing materials from either engines in the same scene do not always yield expected results.
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You get my drift. Overall, Daz makes a big point to explain how easy it is to get into 3-d modeling and how you don''t need much to get going. [I'm going to ignore the entire Cuda/CPU/Core/VRAM/nVidia thing]
Even their initial offerings are definitely the baby end of the pool with an entire included scene for your first render.
The truth is, this is a DEEP program/area of interest/system/environment and requires a solid bit of knowledge to work.
At least to get decent results.
Shopping also requires some knowledge and there are many pitfalls.
I think too many unnecessary ones.
Some days I just accept I have to solve a problem one of two ways.
Visit the store and buy a new thing that will work the way I need it to or -
Drop back a generation in either figures or clothes or hair or props because I am tired of battling:
Hair that won't fit.
Shoes that won't adjust or fit.
Clothes that won't fit or poke through problems (made yet ANOTHER purchase to help fix that)
Poses that don't match the box art or move the figure properly.
I have stepped back from my monitor in awe of a piece I was working on and can't believe 'I just did that'.
Eyes almost watered once.
And I have seen hours disappear Googling Daz troubleshooting issues and watching (lame) tutorials.
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I love Daz. I love the store (once I figured it out)
I love my Plat membership (even though I think it could be better)
I love the helpful members and mods....(only seen 1 nut so far)
The Gallery is truly inspiring and I think everyone should at least watch the first 15 pages.
Still, I think there's room for improvement, especially with the store set up.
avxp wrote :"Do I really need to buy Eva 7? What do I get with Eva 7? Shouldn't I be able to use these morphs with my Genesis 3 base figure and make a Dayna?"
I do agree with you that designing characters based on other characters is extremely irritating. So you have to buy two characters just to get the one you want. I'm not going to make speculations as to why DAZ3d has a whole raft of characters which are used as base characters for other characters as it might get this post deleted. Suffice to say, I and many others find this irritating. It would be nice for DAZ clients if DAZ insisted that all PA characters were based only on one generation type, eg Genesis 3 Female or Genesis 3 Male. If a new character is based on somebody elses character and therefore requires a licence to use that character as a base then it should (IMO) be the PA that organises that with the original licence holder by paying a royalty for each copy of the new character sold, and not the end buyer who has to buy licences for any and all contributing parts before he/she can use the end product. This is the normal way business is done world wide.
"FWSA Dayna HD for Eva 7 is on sale. (anyone know what the FWSA stands for?)
My goodness $7.95 for me. Added instantly to the cart. Says compatible withe Genesis 3.
Required Product Eva 7.
so....Eva 7 is the base model.$44.95 on sale for $31.47
Do I really need to buy Eva 7? What do I get with Eva 7? Shouldn't I be able to use these morphs with my Genesis 3 base figure and make a Dayna?"
FWSA is pretty much easy to figure out if you look at the vendors listed:
Artist:
Daz Originals Fred Winkler Art Sabby
And yes, you do need Eva 7 if you want Dayna to look exactly like she is in the promotional images, since some elements of Eva's body shape are used.
I like the way you think.
This is how I emptied my cart yesterday.
It's the Tanning Salon Sale.
I grabbed just the poses hoping to trigger some discounts further down the page, but nothing happened in my cart.
Then I saw the word BUNDLE was underlined so I clicked that and grabbed a bundle instead. I'm still learning.
I was torn between Summer or Carmilla (Do I REALLY need more women?) So I opened both to inspect their promo pics (you know, who's cuter, etc [just kidding, but no, not really].
Great, I already owned Summer so Carmilla is it! Then I saw buy TWO bundles and get all FOUR FOR FREE
Slapped all three in the cart on reflex.
- started rationalizing about all the ways those sets can be worth it down the road....
Then saw that Eva 7 was needed for two of the three and she was only slightly discounted. Add that up and...
Add her in and all the savings go away and I am buying two building sets that I really didn't want for more than I was interested in spending.
Carmilla is not so different than Victoria's several morphs in the library so no, I wasn't really, really missing out.
Cart emptied.
Not so good for the Artist(s) as their products get skipped over for no real reason that isn't avoidable.
Make those figures for Genesis 3, as you suggested, and I would have bought them AND the salon and detective set.
And if FWSA (Fred Winkler Art and Sabby collaborative effort) had wanted to use Genesis 3 Female as the base, rhey would have done so. That they didn't was obviously their choice, and I'm sure that if DAZ tried to require all characters to be done on only the base figures they would have a lot fewer vendors supplying figures, especially when a new Iconic Character is released.
what a misleading thread title
I was expecting a new dead horse with hair > <
Ha! Ha!
avxp, our minds work similarly. I am working hard to STOP myself from such rationalizations! The value of Daz products is essentially the perceived usefulness in future works. If I never bought another thing I could spend the rest of my days working with new concepts each and every with things I already own. So strong the will to create in us artist types. It's amazing really.
lol... images of the God Father spring to mind... euew!
Could you please explain what is so iconic about Eva7, Monique7, Genevieve7, Lilith7, Sunny7, Kalea7, Rune7, Mei Lin7, Olympia7, Gia7, Arabella7, Karen7, Bethany7 and so on? That's a lot of icons, and the list grows with every generation. Don't misunderstand, I'm sure each of these "7s" has unique features and is worthy in it's own right, but so are lots of other characters built from G3F. The question is; Why do PAs make new characters derived from these "7" characters and not the base G3F? (yes, I know some do! I'm not talking about them here) And if PAs do make derivative characters, why do we as customers have to buy the original "7" character as well as the character we want?
Think about it; if you buy a car, would you expect to have to buy a licence for each piece of technology that goes into the car before you can use the car? Or when you buy a piece of complex software, would you expect to have to pay separately for each algorithm used? Same for computers and well... pretty much everything else. The answer is almost certainly "No, you wouldn't!". You would expect the person building/selling the item or product to have bought licences for the contributary (non-propriatory) technologies used, so the customer just pays once for use of the finished item! Having to buy car wheels and brake linings and fuel tank separately from the car would be plain daft.
So why do we have to buy one of the "7's" just so we can use a character derived from that "7"? Should not the PA sort out the copyright issue themselves if they choose to make derivative characters? I think this is the crux of avxp's comment on this issue.
Because the Iconic figures are not Merchant Resources in the classic sense of the phrase, but they are being used as such. This is why DAZ requires the PAs to list any content that is not included that is required to get the final appearance of the character.
Hmmm. I don't see it that way. If PA's were using the "iconic 7s" as a kind of merchant resourse (which they may well be doing), we the customer of the final product should not be required to buy the merchant resourse (the iconic 7) as well as the final product. It should be the PA who buys the right to use the "iconic 7" as a merchant resourse. With the system as it stands, customers often have to buy two products to get one that they actually want. Who is it that benefits from this system? The final customer? No. The PA? I don't see how. Who else might benefit from this system?
Don't forget that most of the time these figures are part of one of the bundles that is released at the same time as the Iconic figure, so if someone buys the bundle, they automatically have the required figure. That's why DAZ does it that way, and why figures like the one mentioned are DAZ Originals; and the creators have already gotten their money, since DAZ paid them for it.
Won't mention the site but it begins with REND and ends with ITY. They sent me a coupon that said hair is on sale. So on my phone- that's all I had to surf with, I started seeing hair at wondeful prices.
WONDEFUL. And I thought "Wow, I just made a thread on the Daz forum and now I'm going to get a ton of hair products. The irony!" So I get home tonight and brag to the other how I'm about to get me some hair(s).
Pop on their site...see ANOTHER coupon and almost pass out. I bookmark 18 hair-dos and see EHSC or something like that which I google and discover it's what we call a texture or Mat expansion set, NOT a hair product as is. Ouch! Then I study their listing and only on an INNER PAGE does it list...REQUIRED ITEMS....
Every product, yep, all 18 required another product that WASN'T on sale.
I feel like that's Bait and Switch. The ad should read "Expand your Hair collection with this blow out add-on sale!"
Needless to say, I logged off there and spent it on the build your own flash sale.
And as an extra note, some of the products required items for sale here - and for one of them I couldn't find the item in the vendor's catalogue.
I do need some generic men's cuts, but damn, it seems like there are very few choices for normal cuts, and they ramp up in price very quickly.
Daywalker that would be an argument if the derivative figures were not sold separately, but they are. Sure you can buy both the iconic 7 and the derivative at the same time in a bundle (and get a discount), but that doesn't change the fact that in order to get the derivative figure you must buy the iconic 7. That would be like one for the price of two, for the customer who only wants the derivative figure. Why can't the derivative figure be sold as just another "standalone" iconic 7 as far as the customer is concerned? With the PA sorting out any licence/royalty issues if he/she has used another figure (other than G3F) as a base. That would simplify matters for the customer and ensure that they only have to pay for what they actually want. Isn't this what DAZ3d wants? Happy customers who don't feel they are forced to buy something they don't want in order to use the thing they do want. I would hope so.
I think you're missing my point; when DAZ buys a figure from the PA, that absolves the PA of any responsibility to deal with "licensing issues", since that is handled by DAZ. Other vendors that build on something other than the base figure will, if they post here on the forums, tell you in the discussion thread about the figure that it won't look the same without the required figure, and if it's done right the figure without the required base looks good in its own right.
The new Elijah 7 figure comes in a bundle with his promo pic hair.
All we need to do is keep that idea going.
Figure/bundled with hair.
Why do you think you see more bundles that are all DAZ Originals than bundles that are not? Think about it.
I assume you're hinting or referring to the trouble/difficulty of Vendors making new figures and connecting with another vendor to combine a hair product(s).
But since Daz Originals comes from Daz itself (in house artists, I assume) it's easy for them to combine products as they see fit.
Then funnily so, you could always have the vendors ONLY use the hair that came with the default bundle. So if you sell me a "New Elijah" Derviative figure, then by all means since all you changed was his face, all you can change in the promo pic/ads are HIS FACE. Yep, that SAME HAIRCUT must be used. Now, at the moment you realize how limiting that would be for the Vendor and how tough it would be to sell something as NEW with that limitation, you see my point.
Think about it.
In this particular case it's not that the PA(s) are bad at making hair, it's that neither of them can. At all. They are not modelers, they are character makers. It is a very different skill set. There are very few PAs that can do both. I can do both those things but I'm not exceptional or fast at either one, I'm primarily an accesory and clothing modeler which is closer to hair but still a somewhat differenet skill set. The people who are good at making hair are primarily hair makers and that's why they're good at it, and the same applies to characters.
Thank you for your input.
Do you ever bundle both together and would you?
Would you let another vendor offer a discount on your products if he sold figures- marketing them - using your hair or clothing?
If Daz made that as simple as a button click to add products from another vendor to your bundle, would you do it?
If Daz gave you access to a feature or program or option that allowed other vendors to sell their products and include yours at a discount, would you enroll or grant permission?
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All of this doesn't have to be done at a Vendor level each time. the store could make this a simple feature and offer it. Take advantage or not- decline the pitch if have the settings ---
Do you wish to enroll in the automatic bundle program?
Yes.
Options
- Auto-add my products per request
- Approve/decline each request
You'd get a notice that says Vendor X wants to add your elf-suit to his product "Michael's and in the woodland poses".
Yes/No
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It could always default to a % of what it is currently selling for.
It could be listed as
Product
Product + Hair
Product + Hair + Clothes
Product + Hair + Clothes + Poses (well, maybe not that far. Lol)
No, just like I would not want my products to be sold as Encrypted DAZ Connect only. The reason is that I'm not guaranteed an increased number of sales to make up the difference between what my share of a bundle sells for and what the base product (outside of any special sales) sells for. This, more than a lack of networking to find other vendors to make complimentary products, is why you see so few bundles outside of DAZ Original products.
No I don't think I missed that point. That is clear. What is unclear is; if a PA produces a figure based on another (iconic figure) other than the base genesis3 figure and sells it to DAZ3d, why would DAZ3d then sell that derivative figure separately in its derivative form? This forces the user who only wants the derivative figure to buy both figures. If DAZ3d own both the original and the derivative they can sell both as "standalone" figures allowing the user to chose which one (or maybe both) he or she wants.
It's not like this process happens rarely. There are ever increasing numbers of "iconic" figures which are then used by PAs as the base for various derivative figures instead of having one base figure (eg G3F) with ALL other figures (iconic or merely slightly interesting) being based on that one base figure (eg G3F) and sold individually as "standalone" characters. Why is this? Customers are often then left with a choice of buy two even if you only want one (the derivative).
You did miss it, as it's quite obvious. I'll give you a hint; would you pay for something if you knew you could get if for free if you bought something else?
It is rare outside of the Pro bundles for any given Iconic figure; I can count on one hand the number of characters that are not DAZ Originals that require an Iconic figure to get the promotional image look of the character.
lol... would you pay for two things if you only wanted one (the cheaper one for example)?
Are you saying that it's only (mostly) DAZ that create derivative characterss based on iconic figures? If so that makes the 1 for the price of 2 argument even worse!
I really hate it when people try to sell me two things when I only want one! I don't think I'm alone in this.
"So Sir, you want to buy a pair of jeans? Yes, certainly, but you must also buy this pair of trousers!...... No... I just want the jeans! Yes, but you get a discount when you buy the trousers with the jeans. No.. I just want the jeans! I don't like the trousers, I won't wear the trousers... I just want the jeans!!!!"
:D
If I wanted the figure to look exactly as expected based on the promotional images, yes. If I was willing to accept a somewhat different appearance because I didn't have a required part of it, no.
No, I'm saying that DAZ is allowing PAs to create using all of the tools that are available, instead of limiting them to only the most basic ones; remember the old saying attributed to Henry Ford. "You can have any color you want, as long as it's black"
Probably not, but DAZ isn't expecting to sell the figure to those that don't want to spend the extra money to get the required parts, or aren't willing to accept the altered version as is.