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linvanchene
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I'm gonna post this before it even starts off. Please keep the conversation civil and directed at the OP's topic and not at each other
I don´t see any rudeness towards new members in the forums. If anything, longtime members are very helpful towards newbies and patiently answer the same questions over and over, I never encountered anyone who would just say "this has been discussed already, so shut up and go away".
Those forum medals seem very strange to me. We don´t want to start being divided in groups according to how rich or poor we are, how much money we can afford to spend - do we? I don´t want to see here anything that would the wealthier automaticaly mark as "better people" and those who only spend a little as "poor suckers". Forum members I value the most are those who are friendly, helpful and share useful information with others. Whether their wallet is fat or slim does not matter to me.
I don´t think anyone is oppressed here. Why should someone be afraid of people who have a larger number of posts? And why should those with more posts be blamed for the fact, that this person is afraid of them? Neither makes any sense to me.
I think as far as moderators and admins posting their opinions, that's fine. They obviously are interested in the subject or they wouldn't be here, so their opinion is as valid, and worthwhile as anyone elses.
So far as badges are concerned, the amount I have spent here would no doubt give me a big gold star, but it wouldn't mean I know more or less that the next person, only that I have bigger debts lol.
I can't, and won't, reply to all of the original thread. But I can, and will, reply to the part of new user :)
As one of those new users, yesterday marked my first 30 days since installing Daz. I have during this time never felt that I was treated rudely or ignored, much rather the other way around. I have asked some of the most stupid questions at times but the other members have been helpful and patient with answering those questions and therefor helped me learn more.
I have seen some hints at rudeness in some threads yes, but that has been equal new and old users to be honest. For example.. there have been those of the new users that has asked for help and when getting help has responded to it in a very rude and sometimes even aggressive way. And than there is those of the older users who sometimes act quite rude and so on. But as I see it this is the internet, and a forum, there will always be those that are rude and sometimes even aggressive.
Personally, I have seen and left several forums due to the amount of rudeness, aggressivity and plain trashtalk that went on there. I am one of those persons that Rarely frequent a forum unless basically forced too, at this date there is a total of 4 forums I frequent. Of those four, this forum is one and only because of the amount of nice and helpful people that are found here.
That is my experience and my opinions, I'm sure there is those that don't agree with either of it *smiles* but that's what makes us humans as well... that all of us are actually different people with different personalities :) Besides, we can all have a bad day once in a while too.. heaven knows I certainly do *laughs*
/Carola
Edit - actually going to make one small edit. There is ONCE during this month that I felt that I was being patronized. Seeing that I myself was in a bad mood that day, and that it could simply have been something so easy as a misscommunication due to not being able to express a tone of voice I preferred to leave that discussion. That episode has not even crossed my mind since than, up until now.. and it actually took me some time to even remember it :)
1) Post Count is not necessarily an indicator of whether someone is a newbie or an old hand. I've seen people with much older join dates and tiny post counts, and I've seen people with very recent join dates and huge post counts. Most people get this.
2) How much a person spends is, in my opinion, a false indicator of how "good" a customer a they are. If someone shows up out of the blue and drops $500 on stonemason in one transaction, why should their opinions have more weight than someone who is scraping by with their PC membership, the weekly freebie, and 1-2 PC items each week? I guarantee you the PC member will have bought more products at the end of the year.
The important bit, in my opinion, is that DAZ knows who their best customers are and what they're buying. Both short-term and long-term. There's little or no reason that is in DAZ's benefit for them to share that information or make it obvious at a glance. Doing so could have significant undesirable results not the least of which is people, like me, who wouldn't WANT others to know how much (or little) I spend. It's my information. It's DAZ's too, but it's not public domain.
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You are absolutely no fun at all and I'm gonna have to take you off my Christmas card list. Er, wait. I don't have one.:-P
Perhaps I don't read quite the same posts as you do, but very rarely do I see any of the above. Often times, there are a lot of people willing to help new users, and I've never seen an occasion where they're talked down to. I don't see an issue with Mods and admins voicing an opinion either, since we are all perfectly entitled to make up our own minds, and they present their arguments in a very respectful manner. With that said I'm genuinely confused as to the purpose of this thread. I daresay it almost feels as though it's bait to lure in those very individuals your post mentions.
However, if I may address some of the questions you asked. Firstly, I think the medal system would only further alienate some users from the forums, and widen the divide. The less well-off members would be seen as perpetual newbies regardless of their skill level, and none of the issues you raised would be addressed with it. Owning more products doesn't make your argument any more valid, unless it's a topic specifically on those products.
I can't really emphasise that last line enough. There are a lot of people with differing opinions, and no one opinion is any less valid than any other. It's that very contrast which makes conversations and debates more interesting after all.
Okay, my turn to bash and be utterly mean to trolls.:lol:
There is no way I could agree less with the idea of showing how much one spends in the store. As has been pointed out, it's not an indicator of anything real. Post count and join date also don't have a whole lot of merit but all the forums I'm on have them so I guess they're a fact of life. OTOH, a machining forum I was on (until it went commercial) had what was called "karma." If a post was helpful, people could click on a little thingie over the poster's avatar which would add a karmic point to that person. This wasn't a popularity thing but rather an indicator of how helpful that person had been and it was cumulative. That way, it became clear after a while who to ask in case someone ran into a problem. (I wasn't real popular - I wasn't a "real" machinist, whatever that meant - but I had a good karmic count because I wrote a small but intense number of informational & instructional posts on electric motors, solenoids and the like.) I'm thinking that something of that order may be of benefit here.
Or not.
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A real fast note here. This is NOT an online gaming community nor does it play one on TV. You're trying to mix apples and acorns and it just doesn't work. The folks here have an entirely different set of interests et al and the sort of "awards" you're pushing just ain't gonna cut it. With that, the mods et al here are volunteers in many cases as is true of a number of other 3D art-related forums I'm on. Again, this is an entirely different community that doesn't require having paid pros handling the majority of the forum topics & discussions. Apples & acorns.
With only 8 people contrbuting 12 posts to the thread ( one of which was just a request for civil behaviour ) I don't see how you could argue that a there is any majority or minority opinion on badges at this stage. In the next hour a dozen people could come along and say they like your badge idea.
If that doesn't happen it 'could' mean you are right and the current tiny majority in this thread who are against the idea, are imposing their will on everyone on the forum regarding badges, as nobody dares the speak out in favour. I find this very unlikely though.
This I am going to comment on, I am a online gamer.. a former semi hardcore raider to be precise. And under NO circumstances what so ever would I ever want a medal to be seen on how much or how little I spend on this store. Achievments and titles in a game or on a forum are one thing, but they should NOT be involved when it comes to real life money!
I can only take myself as example, there is so much I want to buy from this store.. but I can't.. simply cause I honestly barely have enough to actually make the month go round... there is even times I barely have enough food to see me through the whole month. So no, how much or how little I spend in this store, is not something I would want to be shown. If it ever, under any circumstances came to that.. I would rather actually leave.
Achievments and titles, post counts and so on are fine. As long as they don't involve things like real life money (as well as some other things).
And yes, of course it would show how much one supported Daz.. but on the other hand, it would make a lot of people either leave cause they can't afford to buy enough to feel like they are supporting, or they would buy way over their limits just to show that they do support... bottom line, medals for how much we spend in the store is a big mistake, and I for one surely hope it will never happen.
/Carola
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Bingo! My exact sentiments on the issue. To be honest, I kind do feel a bit of inferiority when I see all the "Addicts" with their four green boxes and 4000+ post counts. Of course, I don't need to have those things to be loud and enthusiastic as I am about DAZ Iconic Characters, and God knows I make myself very much heard. :) But still, I do feel the psychological pressure at times.
But I absolutely agree without the slightest argument on post/thread deletion! Too many times have I've been silenced because all I want to do is discuss a new upcoming Gen 5 character, even though DAZ themselves has the ReadMe's for their bases and content on the Documentation list for all to see. I find it highly ridiculous and pointless, and especially how part of the reason why I loved being a PC member was being able to see what DAZ was cooking up in the Members-exclusive Sneak Preview threads.
I spend money in the Daz store, but I don't really care to be labelled by how much I spent. Would I care to have a dozen badges to illustrate the many pro bundles I've bought? Not really, no. Am I glad that I'm supporting Daz by purchasing from their store? Of course I am, and I'm very happy with the level of service I've had from them thus far. But I don't want to be placed on a metaphorical pedestal based on wealth.
At best you'd get a tiny increment in sales as some users rush to buy products to earn extra forum credits. At worst you'd start judging people based on their income which is a whole can of worms that should never be opened. Ever.
First, thank you for posting a thoughtful and well thought out comment on this issue. It is an issue not just here but within all the main Poser/DAZ communities. I was thinking about this issue the other day after reading posts in another forum and thinking about why I no longer post at that forum.
I don't want to have this thread devolve into a flame fest so I'm going to discuss the issue at hand rather than root causes. Also I think we need to look for solutions rather than look to place blame.
It is my belief that the forum is a lot quieter these days. So the question I suppose should be how can we increase the number of people that post? Linvanchene has come up with one suggestion, can anyone else suggest other ideas?
I'm not sure that this is happening to a huge extent here at the moment. It was for a while on both sides.Threads are locked before everything was discussed.
Sometimes...there is no choice to lock a thread to prevent bloodshed. I can understand that people may feel that there is more that they want to have heard.
This is a difficult issue and solutions aren't easy to come by it may well be that it will take time for our community to regain its vibrancy that it once had.
Edit to fix iPad correction
I have to admit, I find the idea that a forum should have some sort of awards (optional or not) for how much someone spends to be a little... well, confusing. Especially representing some sort of "weight" that that person's voice should have.
I can sorta follow it with On-line gaming, which admittedly I don't do (and having such a system would severely discourage me from participating in the forums, much more so than any post counts). But how would you implement it for, say, the White Wolf forums. They're the official forums for the company, but they sell a physical product (RPG books), available in a multitude of stores. Surely this awards system wouldn't make sense there. I haven't been there in a while, but when I was, the people who were listened to the most were the people who have done things to support the community. Either writing for the company or creating fan-resources for the players and storytellers. These also tend to be the people who are the most helpful to others. But it really had nothing to do with how many books they had bought. Someone who was helpful and with a good web-resource but just started with Geist was easily as respected as someone who started with the original Vampre: the Masquerade and has been steadily upgrading with each new edition.
The same way, here, I tend to respect those artists who are most helpful in explaining how to do something, and those PA's and freebie providers who likewise are present on the forums and willing to answer questions and respond to (polite) critique. Post count and join date mean nothing. Same with how much is spent. How helpful someone is, and their attitude, mean much more to me.
Are there threads I have ignored or not responded to, that I wanted to? Sure. But not because I was afraid of having a minority opinion. Sometimes, I feel that since others have made my point (frequently better than I could), I don't need to. Sometimes, I start to type an answer, then realize I'm in a bad mood and my post will likely end up inflammatory. Other times, I start to respond to a post that I realize will probably get deleted because it is little more than flame-bait, even if the poster doesn't realize it, and then stop myself, leaving it to the mods. Occasionally, I'll just decide that it isn't worth getting into an argument about.
"Don't sweat the small stuff" and "Pick your battles" are mantras I try to live by. They've worked for me as a parent. :)
As a very new user, I would like to share that my experience from the beginning in this forum has been really wonderful. Everyone who I have interacted with has been polite, friendly and very helpful. I could list the people who I have corresponded directly with, but I know that there are others of you who sincerely have the best interests of everyone in mind and who are always willing to help. Thank you all very much!
I am certain that DAZ 3D is such a wonderfully special product suite because the people who build and support it, including all those who contribute their personal time to it, are the same way.
As my alter ego would say, humans are such a strange lot, too many of them don't know how to get out of their own way. To those who would be negative on this forum, that is what I say.
To those who sincerely give their best to supporting DAZ 3D, and many of you consistently show that, tremendous thanks to making it a great experience!
Well, the number of posts aren't indicating anything beyond how much time you're online here at the DAZ forums. Granted, it's my number one waterhole, so that might account for my 'status'.
As for newbies, we've all been there. Show me anyone who was born an expert. Showing those new the in's and out's of 3D-stuff - politely - isn't too much of an effort, so it's pretty easy to answer questions in a civil tone.
As for how much I spend, I'd probably be granted several golden stars. Doesn't mean I am better or worse. My artistic pictures and ideas, however, I hope will make my case of who I am. And hopefully be the only thing that determines my 'standing' in this community. Or the art community in general, though I - like the rest of us - have the 'make art-button' stigma hanging over our heads by those dealing with paper, brush and ink. But time will probably show the same development as those into artistic photography, and we might gain some recognition for our hard work.
you want to read demeaning unhelpful comments?
click on the "do not click" in my sigline and read any of the comments on my 600 Youtube videos!! %-P
I have 10 000+ VERY scary subscribers who do not hold back in voicing an opinion!
I myself am imtimmidated by my post count (hence the "troll" status)
but
this forum is a very friendly place compared to what else I have encountered in cyberspace
hence my frequent posting
out THERE is a jungle I tell you!
how many other forums have you posted on?
I have a few but not many times, some once or twice
being ignored at best
so yes I post a lot here as it is the safest friendliest place I have found.
No, the apples & acorns mix referred to trying to treat this as a gaming forum with gaming values and attitudes.
It's an interesting question.
(And in answer to one that's been posed, it's sales. I'm very positive on that.)
I'm not in favor of further scorekeeping. It serves no good purpose. When a person is truly ignorant, they show that in one of two ways: either by asking questions and trying to learn, or by arrogantly asserting the incorrect. I think most of us can identify the difference. Those who cannot are destined to argue until they learn or give up, and badges won't change that.
I don't pay any attention to post counts or the badge designations... they are as meaningless as the friend counts on facebook. I remember the people who have helped me, the users who have funny posts and show a great sense of humor, the PAs who take the time to interact with potential buyers on the forums when their products are released, and the mods who are fair to both the users and to DAZ.
I do think the focus of the forums has shifted away from being the heads-up place for all new 3d products and more for just DAZ. Its also less of a gathering spot for the big DAZ events like March Madness .... because these days everyday sales are happening and there is less emphasis on big sale events.
Greetings,
Badges based on expenditure (and thereby, inevitably, income) rub egalitarians the wrong way. They also rub wrong us folks who are a bit tetchy or embarrassed about how much we spend.
Now I'll tell you a few pieces of gamification (that's the technical term for what you're trying to introduce/extend) that would kick tush...
Badges for winning contests - Contest creators could present a little logo for their contest (a pair of dice for RRRR for example!) and you'd accumulate them as you won contests. You could pick which ones (2-3 at most) you wanted to show normally, and have a little shrine of all of them in your profile.
Badges for being helpful - This requires a way of giving positive feedback; the negative feedback (report/ignore) already exists. This is a key piece of the gamification of sites like Stack Overflow and it's related knowledge sites. Folks who take the time to write helpful responses that answer a question get 'upvoted' and get points. Those points result in various levels of badge and additional features. (Stack Overflow has an entire large list of power-user features that become available as you become more and more useful on the site.)
A PC member badge - This will be the most controversial, I believe...but it's a nice, simple way to set apart the folks who have joined and continue to be part of the Platinum Club. Plus it's a mighty-quick way to recognize if your PC membership disappears accidentally. ;)
Again, the underlying idea would be that you could pick and choose which (if any!) badges showed up in your normal posting.
ALL THAT SAID...
None of this is going to happen, because they have a very small team who works on the website, and they have at least 6-9 months of higher priority work that are much more important to the business than adding gamification to the forum.
Some kinds of negativity here get me down sometimes, I'll admit it, but I have no trouble presenting my view, and I've never felt that my opinion was marginalized. I've felt that folks disagree with me, and sometimes don't phrase that disagreement very well, but we're all human, and I give a lot of latitude for that, even to the folks who vigorously disagree with me. I've also had times when I wonder if my posts even are read, but the truth is that not every word I write is a golden nugget rich in nutritious wisdom. :)
So no, I have not found that the 'spiral of silence' affects me, personally. It's also worth noting that the lurker-to-poster ratio in software-related groups generally approaches 90%, so the silence is not merely a function of marginalized opinion, but rather an endemic tendency in users to avoid public discussion. One which, history over the last 25+ years of the Internet has shown us, is not particularly avoidable.
-- Morgan
linvanchene to be fully honest, you have in this thread manage to actually be the only one on this forum to make me feel insulted.... and that is due to the gamer comment.
As have been stated above by Kludge, this is not a gaming community, regardless of how many or how few people here are gamers. Bringing gamers into this discussion is questionable truth to be told, but it also showed that you seem to have packed all gamers together in one bunch and expect them to fully jump on such hings are you money medals... That is how your comment comes off to me.
I know that I did respond to that earlier, but since I have thought more on it, as well as actually talked around with several other gamers both those I know personally as well as those I actually don't know at all. I decided to bring this up again.
Of all the people I did talk to, not a single one of them would have wanted medals or achievment based on how much money they spend. Considering that the gaming world contains a lot of people, far more than I could ever talk to... I am also sure there might be those that would like it. But that's the point of this reply, to point out that just because people are gamers doesn't mean they don't have their own personality, views and moral codes.
Bottom line with my above comments - Just because someone is a gamer doesn't mean they would want to hunt achievments/titles or medals to show off how much money they spend.
And again, this is NOT a gaming community, so bringing gamers into this is a mote point in my opinion. Even if it did serve to truly insult me, to the degree of actually asking strangers for their opinion.
Perhaps there is a lot of people that do not come in and actually respond to this discussion, but did it occur that maybe they don't feel that they ether want to add something to this, or perhaps feel they don't have anything to add since they might (or might not) agree with what is being said already?
From the different gaming community I have seen, it works very different.. just like with other communities and so on. As all of them are depending on moderators that more often than not do have their own personal opinion. At times flamefests barely starts before the thread is removed, and at other times it takes forver and all out threats before it being removed. It ALL depend on the moderators and the community in itself. A more mature community with responsibly moderators keep a check on things so it don't go out of hand, if it does it's being locked or removed depending on how serious it was. So in that sense I would say that a mature gaming community would work the same way as it do here :)/C
I would just totally stop posting if I had to get badges here. Isn´t giving people badges... eh.. badgering? :cheese:
I was not going to respond to this thread but I decided I had to step in and support this.
Gaming communities are by definition competitive. This is not or should not be a competitive environment. This is about the art. Most people here, I believe, are here to help each other out. No medals, no badges, just trying to help each other get past the bumps. Introducing anything remotely akin to what was mentioned would be destructive to that sense of community. People spend a lot of time coming into the forums, unpaid, to try their best to help others. I think rather then start a flame war about this, we should thank the people who give of their time to try to help others rather then suggesting they should perhaps feel guilty because someone might think they post too often. I for one would like to say thank you for everyone who has taken the time to try and help all of us.
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