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Having spent more than a few years in forums dedicated to gaming and modding in years past, this forum is a kinder, gentler, more relaxed environment. Let's keep it that way. There is a good sense of community and creativity.
Ok, so perhaps this is the heart of the issue. After all of that discussion, the real question is, what were you hoping to get out of the forums. If it is to discuss technical and/or artistic points about using the various products much of what was being discussed wouldn't make sense. But in light of this comment, it appears to indicate a desire to effect DAZ's decision making process and a feeling of ineffectiveness in being able to do that through the forums. If that is the case, I understand. I think many here would hope to have some amount of effect considering we invest much in DAZ either in time, money, or both. The reality as I see it is that posting on those issues are fundamentally different and should be considered and kept separate from artistic and technical discussions. We need to separate our mental space for those two very different types of discussions.
I haven't read all the posts made so far, so what I have to say might have been mentioned already. I will state now I can be quite opinionated, and at times crass, I apologize in advance if my wording offends anyone, being blunt can have it's drawbacks.
First off I will tell you I have been a member of Daz since 2003 or 2004, but did not actually start to use the program for at least another year. I am mostly self taught, though did find a wonderful group that helped me with the things I didn't know. I am the kind of person who learns by actually doing, not by reading or listening to someone else, so I experiment and hope I don't break anything.
Being new or an old hat does not guarantee someone's level of ability. What I learned to do in three years, my son learned to do in less then a week and then surpassed me in what could be done with the program. How much money one' spends does not guarantee how much experience they have. Just because someone bought something does not mean they use it and as such does not have the knowledge to tell others how to use it. For the record, I do not want others knowing how much I spend anywhere, that is my business, it's personal and therefore private, not for public knowledge. Badges are just another way of infringing on that personal and private information.
There are some amazing artists here, they win contests all the time. For someone like me, it's difficult to enter contests against such talented people, I don't stand a chance of winning, as I am nowhere near their level. Badge are just a way of flaunting that fact. If I was that talented and someone new wanted help to improve, flaunting badges in their face won't do it,helping them learn the program is what will improve their skills, encouraging them brings the artist in them to the forefront.
As for the attitude of some when another asks for help, that changes every day. I know one moderator here who is 50/50 with help and attitude. One day he is a shining example of those who give their all to help someone learn and on other days, rudeness is all he dishes out, I believe from lack of patience most likely from something that might have gone wrong that day and the newbie got the backlash from it.
One thing I have noticed, not just at Daz, but also other sites as well, are those who are very good artists, both in creating images or animations, and those who create the props and such everyone uses, seem to be unwilling to help because (in my opinion) don't want the competition.. Unfortunately, this seems to happen far too often. I, personally, rarely come across this type of thing, however I have been hearing many speak of it on all sites.
Ok, so perhaps this is the heart of the issue. After all of that discussion, the real question is, what were you hoping to get out of the forums. If it is to discuss technical and/or artistic points about using the various products much of what was being discussed wouldn't make sense. But in light of this comment, it appears to indicate a desire to effect DAZ's decision making process and a feeling of ineffectiveness in being able to do that through the forums. If that is the case, I understand. I think many here would hope to have some amount of effect considering we invest much in DAZ either in time, money, or both. The reality as I see it is that posting on those issues are fundamentally different and should be considered and kept separate from artistic and technical discussions. We need to separate our mental space for those two very different types of discussions.
If this is indeed what the OP is getting at then it might be worth pointing out that DAZ is a business, and not a democracy. As a business it will have future plans and roadmaps which will be commercial in confidence and not for general discusion. It is not realistic for forum members to expect to be able to change those plans on the basis of 'what we want today' decided by a majority. Having said that I am sure that DAZ welcome feedback, and if you suggest something which is doable within those existing futute plans, then you might get your wish. Of course this is my opinion and not 'fact' .
I am a member of another forum, for model railways, where there is an annual poll on 'what the people want' the results of this are considered by the manufacturers ( and yes they acknowledge that they are influenced by it ). The poll winners are often very strange choices, and I suspect are the result of competing pressure groups. This can result in manufacturers putting a lot of resources into designing and producing new models, which then don't sell well. ( based on the numbers of unsold models being offered at rediuced prices ).
edited and removed by user
There are quite a few alternatives if you go out on the web and look. All those places I mentioned are DAZ's competitors plus there are innumerable freebie sites with decent quality models. DAZ is only one player in the 3D market ... but we wuvz our DAZ 'cuz dey be kewl. :D
Just a side note. I am a hacker, but in the original sense of the word. The term hacker got appropriated and used to refer to illegal activities. This is not the original definition of the word. Hackers originally were people who went outside the normal confines of an environment to get something to work. To hack something meant to think creatively in problem solving something that by the defined rules was not available. Hackers extended the functionality of the environment they worked in, but did so in ways that were sometimes quick and dirty rather then refined or 'official.' A good hack was something that was very useful and did it's job without negative side effects. So please keep in mind there are many ways to take offense. I don't take offense when people use the term hacker in this misappropriated way, but it is somewhat frustrating. I know you meant no offense to people who consider themselves true hackers in the original sense carola.
Sorry Gedd, I must admit that I have only heard of the bad kind of hackers *hugs and offer cake as gift*
Thank you :)
My main point is, it's sometimes good to assume someone didn't necessarily mean an offense as what any of us may be thinking when we say something may not be what others hear, and vice versa.
Perhaps it might be best if everyone keeps in mind one tidbit: Nobody taking part in the conversation (so far) actually speaks for DAZ3D, and thus every post - including this one - has an implied "In My Opinion" at its start.
(Come to think of it, I rarely see anyone who speaks for DAZ3D take part on these forums. Which I think is odd - they've spent a lot of money setting up this communications channel and spend more keeping it running, yet they appear to be ignoring it. But that's beside the point.)
Badges: I find the idea of identifying people who spend a large amount of money to be an odd one, for three reasons. First, it might run afoul of Canadian privacy laws (I am not a lawyer), which if true would make it difficult for DAZ3D to do business with Canadians (I am a Canadian). Second, there's more than one online vendor out there, and the site where one spends the majority of one's 3d-art budget might not be this site (especially if one buys models from TurboSquid). Third, there is a noticeable community of people here who prefer to make, distribute, and use legally-free resources - one can have literally thousands of high-quality items in one's runtime without spending a cent.
The "spiral of silence:" If I have an opinion, I'll voice it. I'm odd that way, I know, but it's the only way to break that spiral.
Alternatives to DAZ figures: There are some, but they aren't often used in Daz Studio - take a look on the various Poser and Blender forums if you want to see a larger variety of characters that aren't sold by DAZ3D. That said, I suspect Victoria 4 is probably the most popular figure out there for Daz Studio, Poser, or Blender.
Put simply, the amount of money I have or have not spent here or at any other site is my own personal business. If DAZ were to offer badges, I would politely decline them and if they posted them publicly, I would politely ask they be removed as that is an invasion of my privacy.
As for the number of forum posts, who cares anymore? As soon as DAZ implemented the new software, previous post counts went out the window and everyone was back to zero.
We're all pretty aware of this principle as PA's, I think. This is why you can request certain types of outfits until you're blue in the face and they won't get made, because the difficulty tends to outweigh the reward. It's also why scantier clothing gets made despite threads like the "too much skimpwear" one (there's a very large silent majority of buyers that disagree).
It's less an issue with Genesis because making clothes for it is easier than it was for Gen 4, but it's a factor that's still there.
Polls aren't permitted on the forum. The feature is suppose to be disabled.
@icprncss
There are, actually, several people here who have their post counts from the old forum in their signatures, so they sure didn't leave them behind.
As to the op's statements, I fit with some of what he said. For me, this post is going out on a very shaky limb. For various reasons, I don't post much even though I might want to. What are some of those reasons? Chronic illness, pain and extreme fatigue; learning difficulties associated with these heath issues; medication side effects; an introverted personality and having been condescended to or just plain ignored by certain posters. This thread is a very good example of the op's point about the majority opinion. Many of those posting seem very confident that linvanchene is totally wrong with all of his suggestions. I'm speaking up, in my quiet and unsure voice, as an example of the person who often feels like adding my opinion, but doesn't because the issue seems to have already been defined and decided by people who post very often. We are not all the same. I do love those who are always helping and sharing their knowledge. I would do the same if I were able to.
This was really hard to post. I have no intention of singling anyone out or slamming anyone. It is just meant as food for thought.
Oh, for the record, I do happen to agree with the majority of posters that the idea of trophies based on money spent isn't for me. How about that? lol ;-)
Peace
I know, I've seen them. There are also members who try to collect as many of those little green boxes as they can. If keeping track of the old post count or collecting little green boxes is important to a member, I guess it's important. No one of my priorities but hey...
There used to be a much stronger DAZ presence on the forums. DAZ Folks used to post a lot more and fairly regularly even. Dan Farr and Chris Creek even made appearances here too. More often because lots and lots of feathers had to be soothed. But, at least there was an acknowledgement from the highest offices in DAZ Land that a large number of customers were extremely upset.
There was a new CEO (Jim Thornton) a couple years ago, and since then a lot of things seem to have changed. DAZ Folks no longer read the forums according to statements that have been posted in response to complaints. Apparently, they have more important things to do than to be aware how their customers are feeling.
Ok. So that statement is partially tongue in cheek (not serious for those who aren't familiar with tongue in cheek). But seriously, who in their right mind would provide a forum for their paying customers and not pay attention to it? Wouldn't you like to know before your profit margin hits the red line when customers are unhappy and leaving in droves?
Now, in regards to things that have been mentioned by others (and a bit more serious).
Minority / Majority Opinions
I do take into consideration whether my opinion is in the minority when posting. I often delete rather than submit my posts when my opinion appears to be in the minority. Those in opposition to the minority opinion can get rather rude ... if not downright nasty. Some people may not mind that, but I don't have as thick a skin as I should, and I will fume for days when someone's been rude, nasty, or insulting to me.
I'm rather easy going, but I've never been good at ignoring injustice, partiality, or deception. (For the record, manipulation totally raises my hackles.) So, when things seem unfair, it's hard for me to stay quiet. Still, I try to word my responses carefully so as not to cause offense to others. Unfortunately, on forums, it really doesn't matter. Someone(s) going to take offense to what was written.
That's as true on the DAZ forums as it is on any gamer forum. I am an inactive member of quite a few gamer forums (EQ/EQII, DAOC, and LOTRO to name a few, plus guild and other forums associated with aforementioned games like Allakhazam, The Druids Grove, Crossroads of Zebuxoruk, to name a few. And ... excuse my walk through history). Thanks to the mods here, DAZ 'flame wars' never approached gamer flame wars. Though, DAZ mods have often been more heavy handed than I like. And sometimes, not heavy handed enough in the Poser user / DAZ user interactions.
Join Date / Post Count
I don't pay as much attention to the post count, though sometimes I do roll my eyes at some of the high post counts :P Though, if I submitted instead of canceling the majority of my posts, I could well be an addict too ... or close to it. /shudder
However, I do pay attention to the join date at times. Depending on the subject, I may give less weight to the opinions of new posters than I give to those who have been around much ... much longer. Like in the days when Dan Farr and Chris Creek were still around.
When someone posts the equivalent of "sit down and shut up, no one cares about your opinion," it helps to see they've not been around long enough to know that opinions can and do influence DAZ policies. Unpopular policies have been changed after a slew of negative feedback. It's also helpful knowing a poster hasn't been around all that long when they rave or vent. If they're raving, just give them a few more months, and they'll wish they never posted so admiringly :wink: If they're venting ... well. A join day 3 days ago says a lot, doesn't it?
Still ... as a customer, they're entitled to their opinion too, aren't they? And, as long as they are posting within forum rules, they can express than opinion too, can't they?
/cough
I'm gonna sit down and shut up now. It's time to fix lunch. I mean ... dinner. (How can it be dinner time now?!? It was just 1 pm a few minutes ago ... when I started reading the forums.)
Sorry to hear about your health issues.
Pen
We're all pretty aware of this principle as PA's, I think. This is why you can request certain types of outfits until you're blue in the face and they won't get made, because the difficulty tends to outweigh the reward. It's also why scantier clothing gets made despite threads like the "too much skimpwear" one (there's a very large silent majority of buyers that disagree).
It's less an issue with Genesis because making clothes for it is easier than it was for Gen 4, but it's a factor that's still there.
...and this is why I have Blender and Marvelous Designer.
However, I have noticed since the introduction of Genesis there has been a slight upwards trend in "normal" everyday clothing content being offered than in the past.
That aside...
To address one of the OP's points, badges, particularly if it related to how much you spend here, are a bad idea . I agree with others, that is a private matter between my bank, Daz,3D, and myself. In these days of camera phones, social networking, and tracking cookies, one's privacy has become an endangered species.
I would actually like it if they even removed the labels we currently have for post count as I find them silly, and in one case, sending a wrong message. On the old forum we just had our post count, join date, and location (the latter which is missing here). I would rather us go back to that instead. On one forum I participate in (and am in the top twenty five) posters, the titles makes more sense as it relates to a P&P RPG. It is also one of the few other forums I participate in that, like here, has a good crew of moderators who keep things on a more civil level.
If Daz ever decided to do a 'Render Rewards" type thing where one can get extra discounts or perks for being a "frequent shopper", that should just be noted in our personal account information, not for other members and the rest of the world to see. When I used to travel a lot, my frequent flier account status was only available to me and the issuing airline.
Just a note; I have seen this too, and I sincerely hope it isn't due to Facebook. As I don't use it, my time isn't spent fake-socializing with hundreds of 'friend's I have never met. Well, to be fair, I haven't met any of you either, but then you seem a lot more 'real' to me, for some reason I can't explain. Maybe it's because the shield of anonymity grants us the gift of showing our true colors? Not sure, but maybe. And that might account for why some people are preceived as nasty. Mind you, they might not even be aware that some think of them as such.
Well, those were ny nickel and dimes worth. :)
...I sure hope that is not the case. Although last year (before the big change) they were giving out special vouchers only on the FB site, not the main store/forums site.
Even my UC case worker recommends I use social networking as part of my job search. Sorry all the extra baggage involved isn't worth it.
Just some short comments from my point of view w/30+ years professionally in the computer industry:
1. Although it seems counter-productive, commercial ventures rarely reference forums directly for new feature requests. My understanding is that direct communications with customer service and/or sales are usually the most common (and effective) channels, and the customers who can get their new feature requests directly into the developers' ticket tracking system get the best service. Often certain customers have more leverage than others, especially if they are client companies who have contracts. Requests from individuals, like which come from forums like this, are most often ignored. It would seem to me not unusual if the DAZ Studio development team already has contracts with client companies and have committed to a certain delivery schedule, that will be their first priority. It would be helpful to know whether they are currently meeting their development schedule on budget, or are they falling behind, under staffed and over budget. If it is the former, then individual requests might have a chance to get in, but through channels other than this forum. If it is the latter, you can pretty much forget about it. You can see it is actually a pretty complex process.
2. Corporate America is an extremely mixed bag and most executives and management do not know what they are doing, especially when it comes to listening to their customers and even more especially if there have been recent executive and/or management changes. They often scrap very valuable plans, projects and relationships just so they can make a quick buck, almost always at the expense of employees and their customers.
In this light, I set my expectations accordingly in this forum. If not, I would be setting myself up for major disappointment.
It would be really wonderful though, if there was some way to have an open discussion on certain items directly with their developers, to find out how to use them better. Unfortunately, it seems there is no way to find out who created the items. As a new user, I've already encountered a number of items which I have had compatibility issues with, and some I have not yet even been able to use, but I've found that in this forum, if I ask questions generically enough, the wonderful volunteers are especially helpful, kind and friendly and always willing to help me out. I hope that never changes and eventually I will be able to contribute in kind.
I know, I've seen them. There are also members who try to collect as many of those little green boxes as they can. If keeping track of the old post count or collecting little green boxes is important to a member, I guess it's important. No one of my priorities but hey...
Yes, you're right. "To each their own" and it doesn't matter if I understand or not. After all, I posted about not being understood, myself, didn't I? lol
nah, I just yak a lot on my android when bored
cannot speak for the others
Pendraia wrote:
Pen,
Thank you for your kind thoughts. :) I agree with you on the subject of the badges and I'm actually finding this thread very interesting on many levels. I'd like to point out that I don't think a high post count, in and of itself, is a negative thing. Many people just like being social.
While I disagree with some of the elements of your post, these 2 items have always been a problem with the forums.
There have been many threads closed down when it seems they get a little "warm."
When a person asks what happened, then THAT post too is taken down.
Locked threads are a great annoyance.
There are many times I wish I could overule these people snatching down posts and locking threads.
Who watches the watchmen?
Oh well, I hope you read this post before IT is taken down.
And isn't that the truth!!
I'll hazard a guess at the guy paying the bill for the forums ;-)
And isn't that the truth!!
Yeah. I have been steering clear of Social media too. I read some scary stuff employers do with your social media information. So, unless you're "Boring Mr. Corporate" probably best not to get involved with it.
Yeah. I have been steering clear of Social media too. I read some scary stuff employers do with your social media information. So, unless you're "Boring Mr. Corporate" probably best not to get involved with it.
Saying that, there was a report a while back about how a company recruiter was told to ignore any applicants who didn't have an accessible Facebook account. Social media is getting scary now.