More Non-photorealisitic Renders (NPR II)

juvesatriani

Overwatch Drop Spawn ship Interior . the Line art from freestyle  still kind of messy . It also slow to render . Next time I`ll be try using DAZ Outline renderer to check if I can get smoother outline in shorter time . But first I need to know how to import Blender scene to DAZ Studio lol

pavsikakyj

juvesatriani said:

Overwatch Drop Spawn ship Interior . the Line art from freestyle  still kind of messy . It also slow to render . Next time I`ll be try using DAZ Outline renderer to check if I can get smoother outline in shorter time . But first I need to know how to import Blender scene to DAZ Studio lol

Linerenderer9000 shows rather good results and is highly tuneable. 

Artini

juvesatriani said:

Overwatch Drop Spawn ship Interior . the Line art from freestyle  still kind of messy . It also slow to render . Next time I`ll be try using DAZ Outline renderer to check if I can get smoother outline in shorter time . But first I need to know how to import Blender scene to DAZ Studio lol

Another winner from you.

Now, I wish I have a time to experiment with Daz to Blender bridge and get similar results.

https://www.daz3d.com/daz-to-blender-bridge

 

juvesatriani

Revisit my Smooth Toon preset which I`ve already posted in this thread and create photoshop action companion to make more like illustration

I hope I can finishingnew presets this week, so you ( pwToon users) can play with it . In meantime this is quick sample from recent version  

Transmap Hair still need works though 

vrba79

The results are looking damned fine.

pavsikakyj

juvesatriani said:

Revisit my Smooth Toon preset which I`ve already posted in this thread and create photoshop action companion to make more like illustration

I hope I can finishingnew presets this week, so you ( pwToon users) can play with it . In meantime this is quick sample from recent version  

Transmap Hair still need works though 

Very impressive. Thanks. Can I ask you to make a tutorial for separate pass get glowing light effects? If it is possible of course.

FirstBastion

juvesatriani said:

Here experiment using Blender EEVEE and Multipass to generate layers in EXR Format . Its far more complex though and not as eas and fast if ocmpared with my PwToon Pass trick . But i think I`m really start to understand what Blender really offer . There is no Toon Shader involve in this image, just blending and stacking layer and various color adjustment

 This is a great style.  And the lighting is superb.

juvesatriani

FirstBastion said:

 

 This is a great style.  And the lighting is superb.

Thanks for nice words guys  !! Also for @artini and @vrba79

pavsikakyj said:

 

Very impressive. Thanks. Can I ask you to make a tutorial for separate pass get glowing light effects? If it is possible of course.

Here links to the some PSD files ( Garage Overwatch - Another View and Scifi Room)   and some setting which I`ve used for getting multipass render . So you can take a look how those layer stacked . Including the Glow ( Bloom and Emmision  pass)

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1OTllS025HIkT3aAbHcINycwjhpLUh_Qk?usp=sharing

Note :

• Those PSD files using several LUTS which not include in Photoshop as default . So you need to  have/ download it first (  freebie or commercial  LUT ) although  you can swap it with whatever LUT profile you have 
• For Scifi room since its coming from DAZ props I can  using DAZ outline instead .  Freestyle seem too slow if not setup properly and I`m still have no idea how to get it right
• In Blender you need to save render result as OPEN EXR multi layer
• For use OPEN EXR in Photoshop you need this free plugin https://www.exr-io.com/

Thanks , I hope those useful for you guys 

 

Artini

Wow - thanks again for your generosity. Wish you all the best.

 

juvesatriani

Artini said:

Wow - thanks again for your generosity. Wish you all the best.

 

Thanks @artini . It just simple tricks which I`ve also learned from people in this thread 

Now back to my Multipass sample image . Stil not find a way to make it simpler but since this is using pwToon its really fast to render all passes

 

vrba79

juvesatriani said:

Artini said:

Wow - thanks again for your generosity. Wish you all the best.

 

Thanks @artini . It just simple tricks which I`ve also learned from people in this thread 

Now back to my Multipass sample image . Stil not find a way to make it simpler but since this is using pwToon its really fast to render all passes

Looks great! Yeah, I think we all struggle with "I want to balance simplicity with the end result I want"!

juvesatriani

vrba79 said:

 

Looks great! Yeah, I think we all struggle with "I want to balance simplicity with the end result I want"!

After doing several test ,I came to conclusion if  I need to create series of image/storyboard/comic ,  thepwToon flat shading  maybe my first choice .

 Its offer style consistency between character - environment - wardrobe and hairs  rather than my Blender and Smooth Shader tricks 

mmitchell_houston

Thanks @artini . It just simple tricks which I`ve also learned from people in this thread 

Now back to my Multipass sample image . Stil not find a way to make it simpler but since this is using pwToon its really fast to render all passes

This has a nice, clean look The combination of simple lines and the subject matter remind me of the work of Mobius.

Two questions:

1. How is this process working on the more difficult things, like close-ups of faces (lips seem to be an issue) and hair?
2. What about consistency? Can you get consistent enough results to keep the images looking the same for use in a comic book (in other words, do your results pass the scrutiny of side-by-side / panel-by-panel comparison)?

tkdrobert

Spiderman Poster

juvesatriani

mmitchell_houston said:

Thanks @artini . It just simple tricks which I`ve also learned from people in this thread 

Now back to my Multipass sample image . Stil not find a way to make it simpler but since this is using pwToon its really fast to render all passes

This has a nice, clean look The combination of simple lines and the subject matter remind me of the work of Mobius.

Two questions:

1. How is this process working on the more difficult things, like close-ups of faces (lips seem to be an issue) and hair?
2. What about consistency? Can you get consistent enough results to keep the images looking the same for use in a comic book (in other words, do your results pass the scrutiny of side-by-side / panel-by-panel comparison)?

 

I`m not sure how to explain properly , but as more Photoshop user than any other 3D software its easy for me to decide that all my styles controlled or dictated by what I did in  Photoshop ( via cafefully stacked bunch of layer adjustment and LUT profile) .

What kind  of Dominant Hue value for some styles ( anime- Western toon or painted look like) - which Tint Saturations mostly used -   FX and Glow pallete  etc,  already locked before I`ve start doodling with material presets in 3D software 

For me , its easier . Even when I needed , I can copy over between projects to make sure its has the same styles, with some minor adjustment of course

So when doing render from 3D.  I`m only concern with what kind of renders will be work  properly with my FIXED editing stacks? Thats how most my material presets created . For better suit my Photoshop sessions. 

Personally I dont think my photoshop stage as postworks, but as the main one, meanwhile all 3D software I`ve used as layers/elements generators .

The problems I`ve had with render everything in one shoot mostly about large gap difference in textures quality for every elements in one scene - color values which sometimes clash one to another and occasionally 3D lighting behavior which sometimes multiplying everything !

So although we`ve already set with right value in one object , other factors still need to be considered to get results I wanted .  
I hear PBR stuff can help us with that , but since we in NPR and not every textures we`ve been used , created by ourselves so its very hard to control .

Except we dedicated to one PA  and she/he created every models we needed . Variety of products can be bless and torment for everyone who need consistency 

And the way Multipass work, I`m only  need to dealing with one layer which carrying color and texture informations ( FLAT DIFFUSE) . Another passes mostly Black - Grey and White . So if DIFFUSE layer not working/react properly in my Editing stacks, I`m just doing whatever I can to make it work .

Shifting the color value - brightness - make less contrast  even denoising  mostly do the trick .

The beauty with this workflow  is we dont tied with one style.. Just load different editing Stacks if I need different style . BW styles also possible since all shadow passes literally is Black and White Images 

About Line renders, I dont really find  (yet?) better way than manually draw those lines . Especially for commercial works . 

Some pro with reasonable price can do it in five minutes for single image and almost half of hour for full pages . Using all line render generator means we also need to erase - hide and make it bold by yourself .

Most NPR games I`ve played mostly work with GeoShell and carefully painted line in 3D character textures 

The real challenge using premade content to doing specific need is you need to tweak a lot ! 

In Future I want to learn about Stylized painting which possible in Substance Painter , so I can use and mash up PwToon render with what Blender`s EEVEE already great = Emmision Shader and Bloom 

juvesatriani

tkdrobert said:

Spiderman Poster

Great Render as Always ! 

Vyusur

Quick and dirty. No postwork.

mmitchell_houston

juvesatriani said:

mmitchell_houston said:

Thanks @artini . It just simple tricks which I`ve also learned from people in this thread 

Now back to my Multipass sample image . Stil not find a way to make it simpler but since this is using pwToon its really fast to render all passes

This has a nice, clean look The combination of simple lines and the subject matter remind me of the work of Mobius.

Two questions:

1. How is this process working on the more difficult things, like close-ups of faces (lips seem to be an issue) and hair?
2. What about consistency? Can you get consistent enough results to keep the images looking the same for use in a comic book (in other words, do your results pass the scrutiny of side-by-side / panel-by-panel comparison)?

 

I`m not sure how to explain properly , but as more Photoshop user than any other 3D software its easy for me to decide that all my styles controlled or dictated by what I did in  Photoshop ( via cafefully stacked bunch of layer adjustment and LUT profile) .

What kind  of Dominant Hue value for some styles ( anime- Western toon or painted look like) - which Tint Saturations mostly used -   FX and Glow pallete  etc,  already locked before I`ve start doodling with material presets in 3D software 

For me , its easier . Even when I needed , I can copy over between projects to make sure its has the same styles, with some minor adjustment of course

So when doing render from 3D.  I`m only concern with what kind of renders will be work  properly with my FIXED editing stacks? Thats how most my material presets created . For better suit my Photoshop sessions. 

Personally I dont think my photoshop stage as postworks, but as the main one, meanwhile all 3D software I`ve used as layers/elements generators .

The problems I`ve had with render everything in one shoot mostly about large gap difference in textures quality for every elements in one scene - color values which sometimes clash one to another and occasionally 3D lighting behavior which sometimes multiplying everything !

So although we`ve already set with right value in one object , other factors still need to be considered to get results I wanted .  
I hear PBR stuff can help us with that , but since we in NPR and not every textures we`ve been used , created by ourselves so its very hard to control .

Except we dedicated to one PA  and she/he created every models we needed . Variety of products can be bless and torment for everyone who need consistency 

And the way Multipass work, I`m only  need to dealing with one layer which carrying color and texture informations ( FLAT DIFFUSE) . Another passes mostly Black - Grey and White . So if DIFFUSE layer not working/react properly in my Editing stacks, I`m just doing whatever I can to make it work .

Shifting the color value - brightness - make less contrast  even denoising  mostly do the trick .

The beauty with this workflow  is we dont tied with one style.. Just load different editing Stacks if I need different style . BW styles also possible since all shadow passes literally is Black and White Images 

About Line renders, I dont really find  (yet?) better way than manually draw those lines . Especially for commercial works . 

Some pro with reasonable price can do it in five minutes for single image and almost half of hour for full pages . Using all line render generator means we also need to erase - hide and make it bold by yourself .

Most NPR games I`ve played mostly work with GeoShell and carefully painted line in 3D character textures 

The real challenge using premade content to doing specific need is you need to tweak a lot ! 

In Future I want to learn about Stylized painting which possible in Substance Painter , so I can use and mash up PwToon render with what Blender`s EEVEE already great = Emmision Shader and Bloom 

Hey there. Sorry for the short response to your long, thoughtful post. I'm on deadline this week and need to minimize my online time.

Sounds like you have a good process in general. I have found that writing it down helps solidify it in your mind, and also helps you recreate particular looks at  a later date.

As for outlined work, so far Poser Pro 11 & 12 are really the only programs at this level that really deliver outlines in a consistent in a live preview. If you look through my gallery, or submissions in this forum group, you'll see a lot of examples of my Poser work.

I've done some digital painting and have receieved solid results. But for me, hat's still a hit-or-miss process where I get slightly different results based on my inputs. Of course, I don't do paintings very often, so that's a big part of that.

Finally, you may want to look more into how Daz Studio interacts with Substance Painter. I'm not sure it's still the case, but previously Substance Painter could't really work with DS because the texture nodes were too different. I know when I tried it about two years ago it turned out to be a complete dead end for me.

 

amaragh2@gmail.com

vrba79 said:

Also a reminder that if you just don't have the scratch for PWToon right now, D|S actually comes with a fairly versitile Toon shader set. It even renders faster than PWToon. Here's one render without and then with the outlines turned on. 

What toon shader set would you be refering to, never come across one out of the box with Daz? 

juvesatriani

ShadowSkillz said:

vrba79 said:

Also a reminder that if you just don't have the scratch for PWToon right now, D|S actually comes with a fairly versitile Toon shader set. It even renders faster than PWToon. Here's one render without and then with the outlines turned on. 

What toon shader set would you be refering to, never come across one out of the box with Daz? 

Check in Shader Preset >DS Default

There are several nice toon shaders you can use it . You need to work or using 3delight tough > Change your render engine to 3delight 

juvesatriani

Another combo PwToon and Pshop 

juvesatriani

Another style from PwToon and Pshop

 

vrba79

juvesatriani said:

ShadowSkillz said:

vrba79 said:

Also a reminder that if you just don't have the scratch for PWToon right now, D|S actually comes with a fairly versitile Toon shader set. It even renders faster than PWToon. Here's one render without and then with the outlines turned on. 

What toon shader set would you be refering to, never come across one out of the box with Daz? 

Check in Shader Preset >DS Default

There are several nice toon shaders you can use it . You need to work or using 3delight tough > Change your render engine to 3delight 

Its a pretty good toon shader. You just have to coax it, as the default settings for it look terrible. But once you play around with it, you can get some very nice results!

pavsikakyj

juvesatriani said:

FirstBastion said:

 

 This is a great style.  And the lighting is superb.

Thanks for nice words guys  !! Also for @artini and @vrba79

pavsikakyj said:

 

Very impressive. Thanks. Can I ask you to make a tutorial for separate pass get glowing light effects? If it is possible of course.

Here links to the some PSD files ( Garage Overwatch - Another View and Scifi Room)   and some setting which I`ve used for getting multipass render . So you can take a look how those layer stacked . Including the Glow ( Bloom and Emmision  pass)

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1OTllS025HIkT3aAbHcINycwjhpLUh_Qk?usp=sharing

Note :

• Those PSD files using several LUTS which not include in Photoshop as default . So you need to  have/ download it first (  freebie or commercial  LUT ) although  you can swap it with whatever LUT profile you have 
• For Scifi room since its coming from DAZ props I can  using DAZ outline instead .  Freestyle seem too slow if not setup properly and I`m still have no idea how to get it right
• In Blender you need to save render result as OPEN EXR multi layer
• For use OPEN EXR in Photoshop you need this free plugin https://www.exr-io.com/

Thanks , I hope those useful for you guys 

 

Awesome! Thanks! 

mindsong

juvesatriani said:

Another combo PwToon and Pshop 

I'm really enjoying your inspiring results and appreciating your exploration and generous workflow sharing.

It was mentioned above, but it bears further comment and some additional detail - the line-render-9000 (LR9K) package from the DAZ store has some features that I don't believe are well-understood and therefore seldom used. Your workflow might really benefit from this tool:

  - all DS 3DL line generation is based on contrasting/color edges in a given render. LR9K includes a series of presets that will let you 'force' those colors and contrast to get *just the lines* that can be overlayed on your 'normal' render (of any kind: pwtoon, visual-style, DS-toon, etc.). This is powerful in the right hands, and can be tweaked for a variety of very different scene-types, using color-ids, fresnel, lighting and ambient tricks, etc. - all in 3DL).

But more important, and I believe less appreciated/understood:

 - LR9K also includes a control-panel that lets you configure, generate, and overlay multiple renders, using multiple render engines (3DL/Iray/filament/?) in a single "shot" context - like multi-pass on steroids.

e.g. you can configure up to four independent renders in a LR9K session/shot, where the first is an IRAY background, maybe using Oso3d's IRAY toon tools, then in layer 2, you can do a 3DL pwtoon pass, and in layer 3, a LR9K line pass - and LR9K will layer them into a single final image. I believe the rendered layers are also available in the DS render caches if you wish to dig them up, or you can simply do traditional renders of a given layer in the traditional way.

You can also use all four layers to consolidate four different line-styles in your scene (e.g. trees/leaves, vs figure edges, vs landscapes of some texture, and then perhaps some cloud edging (not all lines are black, etc.). This 'super-line' render can be layered over any other render of the scene, etc. Or you can mix/match to taste.

Of course you have to keep track of the alpha channels in your layers as with any composite sequence you already do, etc. but once setup, your LR9K 'formula' can be saved as a preset for your continued general use.

Note that the tool *seems* to sell itself as a toon/line engine, which it can be, but you can use the autorender tool with any compositing goal, using any of the render techniques available to you, all with a single click once setup (which is no less complex than your manual compositing planning and workflows).

The tutorials that are for sale aren't that great for this compositing function (they're more line/toon generation oriented), but the author has always been responsive in the commercial product forums, so a review of those threads might be worth your time if you are trying to understand what I'm describing and how users see and use the tool in general.

Kind of a hidden gem. I assume it still works in DS 4.15 (I'm 'stuck' at 4.11 for the most part).

I get no commision :), I simply like the tool and respect the author greatly.

Thanks again for your generous information sharing. Your work is simply stunning, and a great inspiration.

best,

--ms

(eta: line-render detail comment)

juvesatriani

mindsong said:

juvesatriani said:

Another combo PwToon and Pshop 

I'm really enjoying your inspiring results and appreciating your exploration and generous workflow sharing.

It was mentioned above, but it bears further comment and some additional detail - the line-render-9000 (LR9K) package from the DAZ store has some features that I don't believe are well-understood and therefore seldom used. Your workflow might really benefit from this tool:

  - all DS 3DL line generation is based on contrasting/color edges in a given render. LR9K includes a series of presets that will let you 'force' those colors and contrast to get *just the lines* that can be overlayed on your 'normal' render (of any kind: pwtoon, visual-style, DS-toon, etc.). This is powerful in the right hands, and can be tweaked for a variety of very different scene-types, using color-ids, fresnel, lighting and ambient tricks, etc. - all in 3DL).

But more important, and I believe less appreciated/understood:

 - LR9K also includes a control-panel that lets you configure, generate, and overlay multiple renders, using multiple render engines (3DL/Iray/filament/?) in a single "shot" context - like multi-pass on steroids.

e.g. you can configure up to four independent renders in a LR9K session/shot, where the first is an IRAY background, maybe using Oso3d's IRAY toon tools, then in layer 2, you can do a 3DL pwtoon pass, and in layer 3, a LR9K line pass - and LR9K will layer them into a single final image. I believe the rendered layers are also available in the DS render caches if you wish to dig them up, or you can simply do traditional renders of a given layer in the traditional way.

You can also use all four layers to consolidate four different line-styles in your scene (e.g. trees/leaves, vs figure edges, vs landscapes of some texture, and then perhaps some cloud edging (not all lines are black, etc.). This 'super-line' render can be layered over any other render of the scene, etc. Or you can mix/match to taste.

Of course you have to keep track of the alpha channels in your layers as with any composite sequence you already do, etc. but once setup, your LR9K 'formula' can be saved as a preset for your continued general use.

Note that the tool *seems* to sell itself as a toon/line engine, which it can be, but you can use the autorender tool with any compositing goal, using any of the render techniques available to you, all with a single click once setup (which is no less complex than your manual compositing planning and workflows).

The tutorials that are for sale aren't that great for this compositing function (they're more line/toon generation oriented), but the author has always been responsive in the commercial product forums, so a review of those threads might be worth your time if you are trying to understand what I'm describing and how users see and use the tool in general.

Kind of a hidden gem. I assume it still works in DS 4.15 (I'm 'stuck' at 4.11 for the most part).

I get no commision :), I simply like the tool and respect the author greatly.

Thanks again for your generous information sharing. Your work is simply stunning, and a great inspiration.

best,

--ms

(eta: line-render detail comment)

Thanks a lot for nice words and give me detail  insight about Line render 9000 ,  Every tools and techniques which have possibility to enhance end result, always worth to check . So yeah I`ll be hanging out iin there and read the manual first ( if public available) before decide to get a copy of it 

Last year I`ve finally bought copy of poser 11 . Overall,  I like realtime Comic Book Preview features , but still struggle with navigate bigger scenes or when dealling with imported  complex prop assets from DAZ which have lots of texture. Blender maybe the obvious altrenative , since its also offer Multipass in the box . But less export- import process will be great for me . For now I`m still have no idea how to optimize Blender Freeestyle render time so maybe LR9K the missing piece in my workflow 

Thanks again for information , I hope someday we ( DAZ NPR regular users) will  working together to produce several short stories in sequential image medium and sponsored by DAZ itself . LOL 

 

pavsikakyj

PWToon+AOA Ligths+LR9K outlines (edge blend cam)

 

juvesatriani

pavsikakyj said:

PWToon+AOA Ligths+LR9K outlines (edge blend cam)

 

Cool render!! this is for your comic ? 

juvesatriani

I love Blender EEVEE and multipass editing in photoshop 

Artini

juvesatriani said:

I love Blender EEVEE and multipass editing in photoshop 

I love your art