IRay reflection issue - or bug

Luftsturmregiment40

is this a settings issue in the reflection of shaders or a bug in IRay?

Richard Haseltine

What are you objecting to?

Luftsturmregiment40

Richard Haseltine said:

What are you objecting to?

it's basic calculation of reflective surfaces which in this case IRay is calculating wrong

I think it could be a bug

Fishtales

If you mean the curve, that will be caused by the wide angle lens used on the camera.

Luftsturmregiment40

Fishtales said:

If you mean the curve, that will be caused by the wide angle lens used on the camera.

seems to be the case, but shouldn't be like that

any idea how to work around it?

Luftsturmregiment40

Fishtales said:

If you mean the curve, that will be caused by the wide angle lens used on the camera.

to correct:

I was drawing the red curve to highlight the curved window reflection on the floor which is deffinitly an IRay error

 

hphoenix

seegsons said:

Fishtales said:

If you mean the curve, that will be caused by the wide angle lens used on the camera.

to correct:

I was drawing the red curve to highlight the curved window reflection on the floor which is deffinitly an IRay error

 

No, it isn't an error.  Using a wide-angle lens (having the camera settings for one) WILL cause the curving effect, just like with a real camera.

 

Luftsturmregiment40

hphoenix said:

seegsons said:

Fishtales said:

If you mean the curve, that will be caused by the wide angle lens used on the camera.

to correct:

I was drawing the red curve to highlight the curved window reflection on the floor which is deffinitly an IRay error

 

No, it isn't an error.  Using a wide-angle lens (having the camera settings for one) WILL cause the curving effect, just like with a real camera.

 

then the windows on top edge should be as well but they aren't

 

Sven Dullah

hphoenix said:

seegsons said:

Fishtales said:

If you mean the curve, that will be caused by the wide angle lens used on the camera.

to correct:

I was drawing the red curve to highlight the curved window reflection on the floor which is deffinitly an IRay error

 

No, it isn't an error.  Using a wide-angle lens (having the camera settings for one) WILL cause the curving effect, just like with a real camera.

 

It certainly looks a bit odd to me.

j cade

seegsons said:

hphoenix said:

seegsons said:

Fishtales said:

If you mean the curve, that will be caused by the wide angle lens used on the camera.

to correct:

I was drawing the red curve to highlight the curved window reflection on the floor which is deffinitly an IRay error

 

No, it isn't an error.  Using a wide-angle lens (having the camera settings for one) WILL cause the curving effect, just like with a real camera.

 

then the windows on top edge should be as well but they aren't

 

No they wouldn't, as they are closer to the center of the frame than their reflection. Camera distortion is generally stronger towards the edge of the frame. So while the top edge of the window is near the center and flat, it's reflection is near the bottom and therefore curved

If you look at the table in the corner you'll notice that it too is distorted despite not being a reflection as it is more to the side of the image.

Luftsturmregiment40

j cade said:

seegsons said:

hphoenix said:

seegsons said:

Fishtales said:

If you mean the curve, that will be caused by the wide angle lens used on the camera.

to correct:

I was drawing the red curve to highlight the curved window reflection on the floor which is deffinitly an IRay error

 

No, it isn't an error.  Using a wide-angle lens (having the camera settings for one) WILL cause the curving effect, just like with a real camera.

 

then the windows on top edge should be as well but they aren't

 

 

No they wouldn't, as they are closer to the center of the frame than their reflection. Camera distortion is generally stronger towards the edge of the frame. So while the top edge of the window is near the center and flat, it's reflection is near the bottom and therefore curved

 

If you look at the table in the corner you'll notice that it too is distorted despite not being a reflection as it is more to the side of the image.

gotta say... this drives me up the wall

 

j cade

seegsons said:

j cade said:

seegsons said:

hphoenix said:

seegsons said:

Fishtales said:

If you mean the curve, that will be caused by the wide angle lens used on the camera.

to correct:

I was drawing the red curve to highlight the curved window reflection on the floor which is deffinitly an IRay error

 

No, it isn't an error.  Using a wide-angle lens (having the camera settings for one) WILL cause the curving effect, just like with a real camera.

 

then the windows on top edge should be as well but they aren't

 

 

No they wouldn't, as they are closer to the center of the frame than their reflection. Camera distortion is generally stronger towards the edge of the frame. So while the top edge of the window is near the center and flat, it's reflection is near the bottom and therefore curved

 

If you look at the table in the corner you'll notice that it too is distorted despite not being a reflection as it is more to the side of the image.

gotta say... this drives me up the wall

 

If you change some camera settings it should go away. I like some nice fake camera distortion personally. Ut can make things look more "real"

Luftsturmregiment40

j cade said:

seegsons said:

j cade said:

seegsons said:

hphoenix said:

seegsons said:

Fishtales said:

If you mean the curve, that will be caused by the wide angle lens used on the camera.

to correct:

I was drawing the red curve to highlight the curved window reflection on the floor which is deffinitly an IRay error

 

No, it isn't an error.  Using a wide-angle lens (having the camera settings for one) WILL cause the curving effect, just like with a real camera.

 

then the windows on top edge should be as well but they aren't

 

 

No they wouldn't, as they are closer to the center of the frame than their reflection. Camera distortion is generally stronger towards the edge of the frame. So while the top edge of the window is near the center and flat, it's reflection is near the bottom and therefore curved

 

If you look at the table in the corner you'll notice that it too is distorted despite not being a reflection as it is more to the side of the image.

gotta say... this drives me up the wall

 

 

If you change some camera settings it should go away. I like some nice fake camera distortion personally. Ut can make things look more "real"

 

fake camera distortions

sounds like a plan... is this a plugin or can I do it in DS rather easily?

 

 

Richard Haseltine

Give the camera a larger focal length, place it outside the room, and use Create>New Iray Section Plane to add a render-time cutter that will hide the walls so that you can still see the interior.

JD_Mortal

Nevermind, Looking at it, I think it is just camera distortion. A shader gone-wild. The reflection should be an exact inverted mirror, in 3D, of the surface it is reflecting. There should be no "distortion", unless the floor is curved. Which is what led me to say the following, below.)

Prior "guess", at a first glance of the image... (I no-longer think this, but it MAY also be this too.)

A surface normal is "flipped", it is trying to "bend the reflection" to the other side...

Someone, whoever made the model, "triangulated all faces", but didn't "fix normals", or "recalculate normals". At the point of exporting from some program, and importing it into Daz.

I get this all the time in SketchUp exports. You can't see the issue, because IRAY/DAZ draws on both sides of the triangles. Thus, the UV-Mapping is correct, but the shaders that depend on "normal-faces", like reflections and normal-maps, will fail. Resutling in the reflection trying to bend 180-degrees, on each inverted triangle that has the "normal" facing the wrong way.

That item needs to be edited back in the original program, hand-triangulated (so it retains the correct "normal"), and then exported again. (Or left as a non-triangulated, multi-sided plane.)

I am not aware that Daz has the ability to "flip normals". It should, but I don't think it does. Nor does it attempt to "correct them", on importing.

(You would need another rendering, where the reflection should normally pass the mid-point, to "test" for a flipped-normal. If it is flipped, the reflection will "scrunch", then shoot off to the right or left, in a bent arc.)

Richard Haseltine

JD_Mortal said:

I am not aware that Daz has the ability to "flip normals". It should, but I don't think it does. Nor does it attempt to "correct them", on importing.

The Geometry Editor can do that, should it be needed in future - select the polygons, right-click>Geometry Editing>Flip Normals of Selected Polygons.

JD_Mortal

Richard Haseltine said:

JD_Mortal said:

I am not aware that Daz has the ability to "flip normals". It should, but I don't think it does. Nor does it attempt to "correct them", on importing.

The Geometry Editor can do that, should it be needed in future - select the polygons, right-click>Geometry Editing>Flip Normals of Selected Polygons.

Awesome... But I have a lot of tiny triangles. Selecting them is a nightmare, and hard to tell which side is actually "up". If it is up, and you flip it down, now the bumps and "normal-maps", are all reflecting like holes, instead of bumps. :P

Here is what it looks like, in a BAD situation. (The "doorways" were stupidly "welded" to the floor, causing the program (sketchup), to triangulate each weld-point on the surface.) Normally I group simple structures, so they don't weld like this. It was an oversight on my part.

The floor is 100% metallic. It should look like I simply inverted the 3D-model and erased the floor. But, obviously, it doesn't look like that. My floor is a little smaller than yours, above.

 

Luftsturmregiment40

 a normal problem didn't even occur to me, I will give it a shot

it was done in Hexagon but the furniture is from elsewhere

will let you guys know

:)

David Brinnen

seegsons said:

is this a settings issue in the reflection of shaders or a bug in IRay?

This is interesting.  This reminded me of effects I've seen in Bryce when trying to simulate (using refraction and metallic) the fresnel effect that is otherwise built into other render engines.  I don't know if Iray has a hard coded F0... I don't suppose that matters.  Just that, here's another thing to think about.  It could be a cut off due to the angle of incidence passing a certain threshold.  If you don't mind a suggestion, to refine your test, change the vertical blinds into chequerboard blinds and that will hopefully show us of it is a distortion or a cut-off - because that should show if the point at which the reflection is vanishing is the top of the binds or part way up the binds.  With them being uniformly vertical we are missing that useful clue.

Edit.  I've had a shot of replicating the effect I was referencing in Bryce.  I've used a chequerboard pattern for the window (top left) and I think if you look closely it is possible to see the curved cut-off in the reflections around it.  Which is what occured to me when I saw your example.

Luftsturmregiment40

David Brinnen said:

seegsons said:

is this a settings issue in the reflection of shaders or a bug in IRay?

This is interesting.  This reminded me of effects I've seen in Bryce when trying to simulate (using refraction and metallic) the fresnel effect that is otherwise built into other render engines.  I don't know if Iray has a hard coded F0... I don't suppose that matters.  Just that, here's another thing to think about.  It could be a cut off due to the angle of incidence passing a certain threshold.  If you don't mind a suggestion, to refine your test, change the vertical blinds into chequerboard blinds and that will hopefully show us of it is a distortion or a cut-off - because that should show if the point at which the reflection is vanishing is the top of the binds or part way up the binds.  With them being uniformly vertical we are missing that useful clue.

Edit.  I've had a shot of replicating the effect I was referencing in Bryce.  I've used a chequerboard pattern for the window (top left) and I think if you look closely it is possible to see the curved cut-off in the reflections around it.  Which is what occured to me when I saw your example.

I'm rendering at the mo on a Mac... "bare with me as it takes ages"

next frame I will try that, and hopefully this will show some evidence what's going on, but I think what you say is what's happening because I tried today a different angle from the shotcam and yep gone the problem

when the render is finished I will upload it with scene file (has Modo assets, just in case I mention it)

Luftsturmregiment40

can't upload it to the gallery but will do when the DAZ New User Challenge is over

Luftsturmregiment40

can't upload scene

the file is too big only 10 MB allowed but the scene file is 28 MB

Richard Haseltine

You could use something like Dropbox

Luftsturmregiment40

this is the final scene setup with five shotcams

if anyone would help me rendering all five cams at Epic RED 5120x2160 - IRay Photoreal and spectral enabled because I'm on a Mac with no nvidia hardware and interactive mode already is six hours.... no kidding

would like this for my portfolio

 

 

SimonJM

seegsons said:

this is the final scene setup with five shotcams

if anyone would help me rendering all five cams at Epic RED 5120x2160 - IRay Photoreal and spectral enabled because I'm on a Mac with no nvidia hardware and interactive mode already is six hours.... no kidding

would like this for my portfolio

 

Grabbed it, but I don't have that HDR - just grabbing what I think may be it as a freebie from hdrilabs. 

SimonJM

It's just a bit over half (so far as default settings, 2 hour limit, are concerned) done (using shotcam_01) set to 5120x2160, and render settings of Photoreal (finally got that to stick after selecting it over 5 times and having it chnage back!), and Spectral enabled.  The 'outside' (i.e, the hdri) is looking wrong to me, more blown-out than in your example so I may have other settings not the same as you.  Also it is still quite grainy - probably due to the amount of reflective surfaces.

Luftsturmregiment40

SimonJM said:

It's just a bit over half (so far as default settings, 2 hour limit, are concerned) done (using shotcam_01) set to 5120x2160, and render settings of Photoreal (finally got that to stick after selecting it over 5 times and having it chnage back!), and Spectral enabled.  The 'outside' (i.e, the hdri) is looking wrong to me, more blown-out than in your example so I may have other settings not the same as you.  Also it is still quite grainy - probably due to the amount of reflective surfaces.

no kidding...

sorry I was in town do some shopping with my wife

https://www.dropbox.com/s/twi5hn4r4s7jqk6/Sierra_Madre_B_Env.hdr?dl=0

that's the hdri

I'm endlessly in your debt 

PM me if I can make it up or something

SimonJM

seegsons said:

SimonJM said:

It's just a bit over half (so far as default settings, 2 hour limit, are concerned) done (using shotcam_01) set to 5120x2160, and render settings of Photoreal (finally got that to stick after selecting it over 5 times and having it chnage back!), and Spectral enabled.  The 'outside' (i.e, the hdri) is looking wrong to me, more blown-out than in your example so I may have other settings not the same as you.  Also it is still quite grainy - probably due to the amount of reflective surfaces.

no kidding...

sorry I was in town do some shopping with my wife

https://www.dropbox.com/s/twi5hn4r4s7jqk6/Sierra_Madre_B_Env.hdr?dl=0

that's the hdri

I'm endlessly in your debt 

PM me if I can make it up or something

Wow, that was really small ...!  Ok, will have another go.  If you can screen cap all your render settings and show me I can be sure I replicate what you are wanting.

Luftsturmregiment40

SimonJM said:

seegsons said:

SimonJM said:

It's just a bit over half (so far as default settings, 2 hour limit, are concerned) done (using shotcam_01) set to 5120x2160, and render settings of Photoreal (finally got that to stick after selecting it over 5 times and having it chnage back!), and Spectral enabled.  The 'outside' (i.e, the hdri) is looking wrong to me, more blown-out than in your example so I may have other settings not the same as you.  Also it is still quite grainy - probably due to the amount of reflective surfaces.

no kidding...

sorry I was in town do some shopping with my wife

https://www.dropbox.com/s/twi5hn4r4s7jqk6/Sierra_Madre_B_Env.hdr?dl=0

that's the hdri

I'm endlessly in your debt 

PM me if I can make it up or something

Wow, that was really small ...!  Ok, will have another go.  If you can screen cap all your render settings and show me I can be sure I replicate what you are wanting.

sure

will do in half an hour so

thanks

:)

SimonJM

seegsons said:

SimonJM said:

seegsons said:

SimonJM said:

It's just a bit over half (so far as default settings, 2 hour limit, are concerned) done (using shotcam_01) set to 5120x2160, and render settings of Photoreal (finally got that to stick after selecting it over 5 times and having it chnage back!), and Spectral enabled.  The 'outside' (i.e, the hdri) is looking wrong to me, more blown-out than in your example so I may have other settings not the same as you.  Also it is still quite grainy - probably due to the amount of reflective surfaces.

no kidding...

sorry I was in town do some shopping with my wife

https://www.dropbox.com/s/twi5hn4r4s7jqk6/Sierra_Madre_B_Env.hdr?dl=0

that's the hdri

I'm endlessly in your debt 

PM me if I can make it up or something

Wow, that was really small ...!  Ok, will have another go.  If you can screen cap all your render settings and show me I can be sure I replicate what you are wanting.

sure

will do in half an hour so

thanks

:)

Yes, far more blue to the lighting, will wait for your settings - I'll be to bed soon so will probably kick it off and leave it going, so can ramp up the settings if you wish

Luftsturmregiment40

SimonJM said:

seegsons said:

SimonJM said:

seegsons said:

SimonJM said:

It's just a bit over half (so far as default settings, 2 hour limit, are concerned) done (using shotcam_01) set to 5120x2160, and render settings of Photoreal (finally got that to stick after selecting it over 5 times and having it chnage back!), and Spectral enabled.  The 'outside' (i.e, the hdri) is looking wrong to me, more blown-out than in your example so I may have other settings not the same as you.  Also it is still quite grainy - probably due to the amount of reflective surfaces.

no kidding...

sorry I was in town do some shopping with my wife

https://www.dropbox.com/s/twi5hn4r4s7jqk6/Sierra_Madre_B_Env.hdr?dl=0

that's the hdri

I'm endlessly in your debt 

PM me if I can make it up or something

Wow, that was really small ...!  Ok, will have another go.  If you can screen cap all your render settings and show me I can be sure I replicate what you are wanting.

sure

will do in half an hour so

thanks

:)

Yes, far more blue to the lighting, will wait for your settings - I'll be to bed soon so will probably kick it off and leave it going, so can ramp up the settings if you wish

I uploaded the scene file with settings might be easier

also, each setting has a small padlock icon I thought I mention it because until a few days ago I didn't know it... anyway only those that I thought are important

updated scene file with render settings