How to best simulate the Poser Clay, edge blend, and blender nodes in DAZ?
IceEmpress
Posts: 639
In the simplest way possible (that is, is it possible without creating a shadermixer preset, like say-- by using a combo of HSS, UbS, UbS2, + texture images)
See, I recently purchased Lady Frostwhisper by Silver and Countess and Renderosity, but it doesn't come with DAZ materials (I already knew this when I bought it, but I wanted it anyway and I'm content with my purchase as I am confident that something close to the Poser mats can be achieved)
Problem is, it uses VERY complex shader nodes, and so far, I can't seem to get the ... hmm, how to articulate this...
Well, the deficiency in shadow falloff seen here:
(WARNING: NSFW)
http://www.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/lady-frostwhisper/78475/#
I've been able to achieve the sparkles via Sickleyield's technique (and editted glitter maps), but I can't get rid of the gray cast nor the vivid speckled noise on the skin.
If anyone is curious, here's a chart of the node trees compiled from Notepad++:
Diffuse >> Edge Blend 1
Specular >> math functions (Specular & Clay)
Bump >> math functions 2 (granite)
Alternate Diffuse
Alternate Specular >> Blender >> Colormath, Specular 2, & Turbulance >> Blinn
Translucence >> Edge Blend 2 >> Skin & Fastscatter >> Edge Blend 3 & Colorramp
I only need help with her skin; the rest of her body uses fairly simple nodes. I'm hoping that my only option isn't *gulp* creating a Shadermixer preset.
(Thus far I've mostly been trying to achieve the mat via HSS, I also worked on UbS2 for a time. I do not, as of yet, own the PwSurface.)
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Comments
I don't have the product, but from your description, a Shader Mixer preset sounds like it should be fairly straightforward. Edge Blend, Clay, and Blender bricks are all available in Shader Mixer. (Blender is called Mix.) The main difference between the two systems is that you have to multiply inputs manually in Shader Mixer, where in Poser if you plug an input into a node that has a setting it assumes you want to multiply the input with the existing setting. Shader Mixer will override the setting instead.
Okay, thanks for the response.
Now all I have to do is learn how to use Shadermixer... (I have several tutorials saved onto notepad, but they're difficult for me to understand)
The skin node also looks similar to the Poser one (has the same dials, that is).
So I'm guessing I need the default nodes + clay, skin, mix, translucency, and edge blend...
the AoA base SSS shader can probably do what you require, it will just go about it in a different way. it is also a shader mixer, shader, so you can actually LOOK at it and see how it is put together.
I did up a quick shader in the mixer and did a render comparing it to the basic skin shader which uses the skin node and a diffuse color input. the figure on the left has the basic skin shader, the one on the right has the one with clay and edge blend, I also included the shader network (aka the connection of shader nodes(bricks) so you can play with it.
Ooh, that definitely does look closer. Thanks for the screenshot of the node tree.
I admit I'm not familiarized with the AoA shader yet because it causes such monstrous render times even for a simple sphere primitive (or at least it does in 4.5)
I've noticed that with the AoA shader, even not using the SSS (setting it to 0 instead of 1) looks closer to what you're looking for. Try to tweak the settings with it off if you want to do it from scratch until you get a basic setup look that you want. It will drastically cut the rendering times without being too drastically different when you do finally turn it on (if you want to at least).
I have a free tutorial in the store here....
Oh, cool, that's you? Is that the installable Shadermixer tutorial, which I presume works within DAZ Studio like those two built-in ones?
I admittedly haven't used that as of yet as my preferred media is text-based with screenshots :( I guess I should get off my lazy ass and use it. (Or is it one of those many "101" video tutorials?)
Also, I see a line in your node screenshot which goes off-screen to the left. Is that connected to the default node? (the one with the diffuse/spec/etc. on the top left) or does that node get deleted?
Also, won't I also need a translucency node like in the Poser settings?
One more: Would it be necessary or helpful to know/use the multiplier for the nodes in the Poser mats? If so, any idea which entry contains the value? (I see stuff like "Attenuation" and "Normals Forward", but I don't know what those mean/are)
Also, I am assuming that the first two entries in Notepad++ are simply the node's position in the Material Room window (position and inputs collapsed-- figured it out just yesterday after noticing that the "position" values on nodes that would be close together/connected directly to one another were very similar)
Misc note: Boy do I ever love Winterbrose's DAS RGB app... I esp. love that it's donationware (though I plan to someday purchase it from the store to show my gratitude-- though I don't know for sure if that will ever happen)
Oh, wait, wait. I have an associated question. I also purchased another item from the Renderosity Store that lacks DAZ mats (well, acxtually it has default DAZ mats, but they were extremely half-assed, and only for the default mat) One of the more interesting ones I am having some trouble with, and I suspect it might be because the reflection is connected to a node with a Mirror U of 1. (It also has a spheremap node, but no texture map assigned for the spheremap-- and looking it up, it looks like spheremap = environment map, but there's no texture map assigned to the node... can HDR environment maps be simulated procedurally in Poser?)
My tutorial is a PDF with screenshots, accompanied by some examples you can take apart and play with, or use as-is. However, I don't see it in the store now, for some reason.I have some more detailed tutorials in the works as well, though they won't be free.
I'll try to look at your other questions later today-- I have a guest arriving in a couple of minutes.
I don't even see your name in the vendor index unless you go by a different one :( Man, I wish I had that tutorial...)
Wait, so if I were to create that clay shadermixer from the node screenshot, woulfd I do that in shadermixer or shaderbuilder?
Because I can't find "input" and "output" nodes in any of the brickyard categories...
The screenshot is Shader Mixer. The brick names are at the top of the brick - Inputs shows the values that are set in the brick, or fed in from other bricks; Outputs shows the values that are available to be passed to other bricks.
This is very confusing to me... (I also wish there was a search function in the brickyard window for nodes...)
Yeah, my whole store seems to have vanished, including items I partnered on. I've contacted DAZ about it. If they don't respond by tomorrow, I'll post a copy of the tutorial somewhere and pm the link to you.
opal42987,
Have you tried using pwSurface2 to create the effect?
Read my OP; I don't have PwSurface yet. (I'm not being snappy here, even if it sounds that way)
Besides that, I want to make the mat files I create available to the public on Sharecg (and if possible) Renderosity at some point, and for that I need something more universally available. (And the AoA shader is a resource hog, at least in 4.5-- hell, it takes 4-5 minutes to render a damned sphere primitive with the AoA default with a bucket size of 34. And because of that, I've yet to familiarize myself with the shader.
My stuff is back in the store. :) Pick up the tutorial here:
http://www.daz3d.com/shader-mixer-tutorial-i
Thanks!
edit: nevermind what I said before. I think I was recalling your image incorrectly and thinking that there were two nodes each named "input" and "output" :(
No wonder I was confused!
Nice to see your stuff back in the store. I went to refer someone to Q&C a while ago and noticed you had vanished. I thought you pulled everything yourself (it's been gone quite a while by the way).
Uh, okay, I still need some help.
How do I create that clay node on the far left of the shadermixer setup image?
Clay is under Bricks > Functions > Lighting > Special
Edit: nevermind. I was being a dumbass again and looked under "specular" instead of "special"...
Yay, I did it! And I added it to the default shader using the technique in your PDF!
Now it's time to look at all the other Shadermixers I have and see if any of them have a translucence node setup (man, I wish I could find a tutorial that explains what all of the different math and utility bricks do and what sorts of things you'd need them for...)
Edit: Oh, gosh, I think the AoA Subsurface Shader can be displayed in Shadermixer... *shudders*
2nd edit: So many custom bricks in the AoA shader that it's not a very useful reference... plus there's no translucency node anyhow :(
I hope I can somehow learn how to make my own shadermixers... but again, I'd need to get a hold of some sort of detailed tutorial or guidebook which explains what each math and utility brick does...
Oh really? ;) What a coincidence..... :lol:
???
I looked and didn't see anything in your PDF that explained what everything does... :(
Edit: nevermind, you were responding to the first paragraph.
I meant... I'm working on the very tutorial that you want. :)
Ooh! I can't wait!
Also, I tried it out-- it isn't working so far. The Clay-edgeblend-skin settings completely override/cancel out the diffuse 1, specular, bump, reflection, etc. settings/colors/.etc, and if I try to turn the clay-etc nodes off by switching them to zero and black, then the skin just turns black.
What am I doing wrong here?
One of the differences between DS Shader Mixer and Poser Material Room is that when you plug an input into a node in Poser, the new value blends with any existing value in the node. In Shader Mixer, the new value overrides the old. You need to use a Mix brick to combine the two values. This also means pulling the value you want to mix with out of the brick and putting it into a Value node, if it was just a parameter in the brick before.
Sorry if this isn't clear-- pm me if you'd like to be a beta reviewer of the tutorial I'm working on. :)
Which two values? Which nodes and I supposed to connect to Mix?
(And just FYI, I've never used Poser-- the only info I have is on the node setup when reading a pz2/mc6/etc in Notepad++)
best thing to do is just play around with some of the bricks, you can do a lot with just the Texture bricks plugging into the Diffuse on the DAZ Default Material.
I did some more experimenting with the Edge Blend and Clay shader that I posted a pic of the network on the first page, I figured out with some color tweaking I can do stuff like this. Note* rendered inside a cube that is all black with specular turned off, one spotlight for illumination.
That was my first thought, but the problem is that I don't see much left on Zigraphix's clay-edgeblend setup that can be plugged into anything, and there isn't much to plug the DAZ Default shader into, either.
It doesn't help that I understand so little about Shadermixer. Though this is not literally true, think of me as someone who literally only opened the Shadermixer window for the first time yesterday and opened up the various DLed, default, and purchased shaders to look at in Shadermixer.
Part of the problem is that of all the free shadermixers out there, very few include settings that I need for example/reference, such as translucency, velvet, diffuse 2, and specular 2.
What would I do, connect an "add" node to diffuse/specular 1 and 2 if I wanted to add something like that?
Only problem is, I can't add "clay" to the default diffuse node OR its image map because there are no slots left to link the two to something...
Zigraphix said I need another Mix node, but I'm not sure where to put that, either. Since the setup is well... you can see from the screenshot he provided (basically, same problem that I mentioned before-- the color node for Default Diffuse and Clay are both used by something else.)
Oh, yeah, this is really eating at me-- what does the "if else" node do? I see that in a lot of shadermixers.