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ok the Shader Mixer window Flows from Left to Right by default, at least it does in 4.5 and 4.6 earlier versions it went the other way, which is confusing when you see older tutorials or watch youtube videos that are based on older versions of studio. so all the inputs to a brick are on the left, and all the outputs are on the right.
When you first start the Shader Mixer it loads a default shader network (which is all the different connected nodes) called DAZ Default Material. it has Two (2) nodes DS Default Material and Surface. I tend to start from here as the DS default node has all the channels for making a nice shader and it feeds that result to the surface brick (node) which does the grunt work of translating the shader network into something that the Render Engine can understand.
Now the Clay and Edge Blend shader I posted does NOT have the DS default node in it, because I started with the Simple Skin shader that I imported into the shader mixer which does not use it for some reason (I tried plugging it in and the shader did not look right).
I also put it together rather quickly and did not change any of the default labels to make it easier to understand what was what in Studio when applying the shader and tweaking colors.
the shader could be cleaned up, the Diffuse node is not needed and output from clay can be plugged directly into the Base input of the Mix Node.
All the Mix brick is doing is layering the Base input with the Layer input and using the Alpha as an opacity mask (like mixing layers in a photo editor)
The Binary Node adds the color output of the Mix node with the color output of the Skin node
It's the equivalent of a logical/computer-code if-then-else test. It can also be mimicked by nested Mix bricks.
I don't know anything about computer code :(
All the Mix brick is doing is layering the Base input with the Layer input and using the Alpha as an opacity mask (like mixing layers in a photo editor)
Now this, I better understand. (I'm a bit more familiar with photo editors than I am with 3D programs)
I was wondering what Alpha did. So, alpha is connected to another node to serve as an opacity mask? Would it also be connected to a node in order to serve as the "strength" dial for a node?
The Binary Node adds the color output of the Mix node with the color output of the Skin node
Oh. So is that what I would need to use in order to get the clay-edgeblend setup to work with the default/primary settings?
Oh, crap, I just realized that I was mistakenly attributing Rareth's posts as Zigraphix's posts >_< Sorry about that, guys.
The Alpha input on the Mix brick is not currently connected to anything, there is a slider you can use to go from 0 (full base color) to 1 (full layer color) I have it at .5 so the two inputs clay and edgeblend are mixed 50/50
to make this shader, start with the simple skin shader, apply it to a primitive, and with the surface selection tool (looks like a pain can) make sure the surface of the primitive is selected. go into shader Mixer and under File, do import from Scene and make sure Material is selected and hit accept.
All I did was put a mix node in between the diffuse node and the Binary Operation node, plugged the clay node's output into the diffuse node's input, plugged the diffuse node's output into the Base Layer input on the Mix Node, make sure the Mix node Type is set to Color and Operation is Layer Add. The Edge Blend node's output is plugged into the Mix Node's layer input.
the Mix node's output should be plugged into the Binary Operation Node's Value input (value 2 should have the skin node connected)
Ugh, so far the closest I've come is by connecting the default diffuse to both surface maps (the default and also the clay-edgeblend one), but then it greatly mutes the skin settings, and completely cancels out the clay and edgeblend settings (actually, the clay node might merely be muted as well)
But so far, that's the only way I've managed to get the default diffuse to even show up.
I adjusted the alpha as you said, and I think it definitely helps.
It also turns out that part of my problem was that I had saved the incorrect sheen color, in addition to a couple float maps somehow getting changed to color maps.
It's still hardly perfect, partly because the Poser settings have a whole bunch of stuff going on with the image maps (the edge blend map is supposed to use the diffuse texture for both inner and outer color *and I can't figure out how to add an image map to any of the clay-edgeblend node color maps without it creating a separate image map, plus said image map nodes never seem to work.)
Plus there's supposed to be a blender/mix node for the specular which connects a regular specular and blinn node, and the specular tex map applied to some of the edge-blend nodes (there's like 6 altogether, and some of them connect to the skin node settings... I realize that not all of that would need to be replicated in Shadermixer, but a specular strength map definitely needs to go somewhere in order to prevent the eyebrows from getting blended....) Sheesh, no wonder they didn't bother to make DS materials for Lady Frostwhisper...)
The skin node is also attached to a translucence node, but I have no idea if that's relevant or not (since, from my notepad++ browsings, it looks like translucence is a default setting in Poser after 5 or 6 or something like that.)
Also, I don't know if this is normal, but I'm noticing that the only way that the clay-edgeblend settings recreate the brightness/vibrance similar to the Poser settings is if I have some refraction going.... I bring this up specifically BECAUSE there are no lights in my scene O_o
hmmm maybe we need to rethink this a bit, trying to recreate a Poser Shader in DAZ's shader mixer is hard enough, I have Poser 9 in addition to DAZ but I don't have the particular product you're attempting to recreate. if you are trying to use Texture maps with the shader then we need to start with those I think,
So how many texture maps are there for this particular Skin? material map, specular map, bump map, translucence map?
There are three texture maps: Diffuse, Specular, and Bump.
And actually, your clay-edgeblend setup has done a pretty good job at recreating the look from the Poser mats aside from the specular settings, which are a bit muted at this point.
So I think that the translucence node might not be necessary, but that the alternate spec node group is, and that I'll need to add an image map somewhere in the clay-edgeblend group.
This thing actually has a crapton of nodes. I might try to figure out how to create a node chart in MS Paint or something.
However, an abbreviated tree goes like this (I have left out most of the image map and some of the math functions nodes on this one-- I could have done a better job at the tree.)
Diffuse >> Edge Blend
Spec >> Math Functions >> specular & clay nodes
Bump >> Math Functions 2 >> granite
Alt Diffuse: --
Alt Spec >> Blender >> blinn & specular 2 nodes, turbulance node (blending)
Translucence Color >> edge blend 2 >> skin (inner color), fastscatter (outer color) >> Colormath (skincolor) >> colorramp
I'll see if I can give a more detailed setup here of the alt spec, diffuse, and translucence trees.
DIFFUSE >> EDGEBLEND
Inner color: diffuse map
Outer color: diffuse map
SPECULAR (the color is black O_o) >> MATH FUNCTIONS
Input 1: specular
input 2: clay
ALT SPEC >> BLENDER
Input 1: color math >> Blinn
Input 2: specular 2 >>
Blending >> Turbulance
ALT SPEC >> INPUT 1 COLOR MATH >> BLINN
Spec Color: Edgeblend 4 (spec str map)
Eccentricity: Edgeblend 5 (spec str map)
Spec Rolloff: Edgeblend 6 (spec str map)
I won't bother with the Bump setup because it's pretty straightforward (and I don't know if I even need it or not) but it is connected to an imagemap node with the bump texturemap.
Here is the Skin node setup. Unless you think a different setup would make a huge improvement, I'm I'm quite content with how this one turned out aside from the eyebrow blending (which I;'m quite grateful for your help in :) )
TRANSLUCENCE COLOR >> EDGEBLEND 2
inner color >> skin
outer color >> fastscatter >> Edge Blend 3 (connected to "color" slot)
TRANSLUCENCE COLOR >> EDGEBLEND 2 >> SKIN
skincolor >> colorramp
then kd and ka are also connected to the same colorramp node, at least I think (there's only one colorramp node) I'm guessing this can't be replicated in DAZ, anyhow (yes, I know what kd/ks/ka are)
The Node tree doesn't happen to look a lot like this one does it?
I don't know-- as I said before, I don't actually own (nor have I ever even used) Poser; I retrieved the mat file info using Notepad++.
Edit: No, it doesn't look like that-- there are no spot or fresnel nodes. I actually listed almost all the nodes in my previous post, save the three imagemap nodes (which instead I listed which image map was attached to part of a node.), and the granite node which is connected to the bumpmap (and imagemap 1 node, which uses the bumpmap, which means that the bump texturemap is applied to the granite node.)
Oh, yeah, the diffuse map is connected to 3 of the four colorramp colors, with imagemap 1 (the bumpmap) connected to the input slot.
I believe that covers everything.
How do you feel about these? For the edge blend I only had to create 1 node. loaded the characteras normal, but put the diffuse texture into the ambient as well, then went into shader mixer and imported the material from the scene. I created an edge blend node; set the outer color white and inner color black and plugged it into ambient strength.
(I then proceeded to make a procedural sparkle but you already have that to your liking. the second image is with the default spec)
Which one is the original? (or are they both examples of your shader network?)
And actually, I would like some help with a procedural sparkle.
they're both the shader network, just one without the sparkle.
Here's my final shader network. The Highlighted bricks are the only ones I created, the rest were imported from the scene. One thing I completely forgot in my last post, in addition to putting the diffuse in the ambient, I set the ambient color a light brown.
Ooh! I'll have to try it out.
Okay, I tried it out. It's a lot harder to optimize the colors as there are so many settings (some of which are hidden), and with the exception of the sparkly spec, I'd have to say that so far, I like Kamion's formula better-- though yours is definitely great too-- the problem is that I just can't get a good skin & clay-like appearance, whereas with Kamion's recipe I can... OTOH, yours is better than his when it comes to the problem with blended eyebrows and the lack of procedural sparkles...
throwi textures into the mix and things change, the simple shader I made wasn't equipped to have textures applied, I like Kamions recipie too, and have played around with it.
BTW, something I've also been meaning to ask you for some time, Kamion and Rareth---
When we finally manage to find something that works (which I'm quite confident we will), would it be okay if I upload this shadermixer (whatever the result will be-- I'm predicting at this point that the final recipe will probably incorporate elements from both of you guys) to Renderosity/Sharecg (with heavy and emphasized attribution-- and linkback to this thread-- since I doubt I'll be doing much of the actual shadermixer work myself-- my hand would most likely be limited almost entirely to adjusting the mat/color settings)? Allowing me to distribute it is somewhat preferred since the mat settings and runtime references would be needed for Lady Frostwhisper... (Plus this shadermixer is only needed for her skin-- the rest of her bodyparts are fairly simplistic and are easily replicated with the UbS)
(and before you say anything, yes, of course I know about the redistribution rules for commercial products-- I would only be including the shaders w. the runtime references and mat preset settings-- and a readme doc which includes a two sentence-or-so tut on renaming the product thumbnails so that they'll work with the DAZ mat files.)
Boy I'm really hoping it's okay with you guys *crosses fingers*
As I said, my hope from the beginning has been to create some DAZ mat poses for Lady Frostwhisper and then make it available for the public.
(And also available for the accompanying Deathchill armor, which uses similar but less complex shaders-- I can't remember all of it except that obviously there is no skin node group, but there is a clay-edgeblend-mixer group-- can't remember if there's a blinn node or not.)
knock your self out, I don't have a problem with it, you want to share it with folks be my guest
Great! Now I just need to see if I can get Kamion's permission as well.
BTW, I noticed that your sparkle-edgeblend shader doesn't reflect objects (reflection color and textures show up, but the reflection of other objects does not...)
Edit: I'm noticing that objects are not being reflected if there is a texture map applied to reflection color or if granite is applied to specular... This is the case with or without lighting...
I haven't seen the specular problem before, but by definition if you apply an image map to reflection color, you're telling DS not to reflect from the surroundings, but to use the map instead (which is generally faster).
I haven't seen the specular problem before, but by definition if you apply an image map to reflection color, you're telling DS not to reflect from the surroundings, but to use the map instead (which is generally faster).
Granite is applied to the specular color, strength, glossiness? all three? Large specular high lights and reflections don't play well, and the reflections can be washed out. you're going to want to have either a low specular strength or a high glossiness (or some of both) to get reflections to show with the specular from granite
Rareth: It includes your sparkle-edgeblend shadermixer formula.
I have several updates:
1. I managed to combine your blinn-granite-random-sparkle setup to Kamion's clay-edgeblend recipe! I'm entitrely happy with it yet either, but partly because I've barely played around with it yet.
2. I managed to fix the reflection problem somewhat in the black pearl shadermixer I created (which uses a similar setup to your sparkle-edgeblend recipe, but is more convoluted, doesn't yet have a granite node set to the Blinn, and has some nodes on the reflection, but is based on the "ONE MILLION PEARLS Poses, Scenes and Lights" bundle MAT node setup from Renderosity)
Unfortunately, it significantly mutes out the nice graininess I had on the reflection from before (note: this was not the sole cause of the lack of reflected objects in the shadermixer recipe mentioned previously)
Going with the original Poser MAT setup, I decided to use a Mixer to blend the granite-reflect with a reflect-and-refract node.
I'd like to figure out if there's some way to get that graininess back that I had with the granite & environment color map connected to a binary node connected to reflect color that I had before.
However, by doing this, I have some (sadly) just-baaaarely visible graininess *you almost have to squint crooked at it on closeups to see it, sadly*, and can apply a reflection map yet still get reflected objects (albeit these are all pretty muted-- but strong enough with the exception of the graininess)
Anyone know of a way to get that graininess back without compromising anything else on that binary-mix node? Would I need to post a screenshot of my Shadermixer node setup? (I already tried switching/doubling/etc. the binary and mix subcomponents, and none of the settings save what I have them on now work-- either there is no change or more commonly, it gets ruined.)
A general question: What are the "Vector" "Point" and "Normal" functions in Shadermixer? Am I correct in assuming that "Vector" is a function that determines another node or function's direction and orientation on a surface?
Oh, and a slightly unrelated question:
Is there a DAZ equivalent or workaround to Poser's "Ks Microfacets"?
What about a way to create anisotropy? *outside of the UbS that is* (My only guess, off of my head at this point, is to do something with the Checker Node plugged into spec color or something...)
Oh, and how does the Fresnel node work? (Yes, I'm assuming that it's completely different from Poser's)
He did the sparkle, I did the clay edge blend.
and yes a screen shot of the shader network would be helpful, not sure why the granite "sparkle" is being washed out. not sure what Poser Ks Microfacets are unless its a displacement thing..
anisotropy.. I know how to do it in Bryce, not sure how to make it function in DAZ, I have a couple shaders that have anistropic switches (on or off) but they are not shader mixer shaders, they are more like the uber surface and run off scripts.
some of the other nodes I'm not all that familiar with..
No, Ks Microfacets is something specular (hint: ks) I think they require Poser 9 or higher, or MAYBE Poser 8 or higher-- I know they appear in Poser 9, though.
*Cries* Okay, I'll try the screenshots. Oh, man.
There's a section of this thing that's really convoluted, though, so it'll be difficult to keep all the lines from delving under a node window.
Edit: I'm going to make things a bit easier by deleting the tiling node for the screenshots.
Edit: Nevermind on the image map node deletion, those are too essential, so I'll only be deleting the ones for settings not in use.
a quick google search.. ks is specular, microfacets might be the same as the micropolygons that has something to do with how 3delight breaks down polygons for shading has to do with shading rate and pixel samples.
Still working on the screenshots (I got the current node screenshot, I just need to setup an image of what I had before-- I think I'll just take a shot of the reflect setup before, and then a before/after of the "Daz Default" preview)
Ugh *Pant, wheeze*
*Collapses holding up screenshots in hand*
I hope these are legible... I compiled them in MS Paint (probably a mistake) and Gimp wanted to save them as pieces of crap even at 100% quality (normally not something it does)
The first image is a comparison bet. the second setup and the first.
The second image is of what I have now, with an additional reflect added into a mix node plugged into reflect.
The third screenshot is what I had before-- with a nice graininess I really liked.
If you need, I can supply renders of the before and after formulas as well.
Uh-oh... did I scare you guys away?
sorry have to sleep sometime..
one thing I noticed is you have more than one surface root brick (node), I'm not positive but I don't think having more than one is a good idea, the root surface nodes perform the necessary task of translating the shader network into a form 3Delight uses when rendering out the final image.
one thing you can try is connecting the Granite output to the Layer input on MIx(24) and see what that does for you