3D Comic Books? Do They Exist?
Fauvist
Posts: 2,152
I mean comic books that are printed on paper and published by big name companies like DC and MARVEL and sold to the mass market in stores. If anyone knows of any titles or series, please let me know, I'd like to take a look at them. And if they don't exist - then why don't they?
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I know there's a Batman comic artist who uses 3D models as reference for his art, but his name escapes me.
I've had some graphic novels published that use 3D art, but I'm not yet at a DC/Marvel level of fame. My books are at all the major online retailers, though.
I know a lot of artists use 3D models as references, but I'm wondering if renders of the actual models are being used in mainstream comics.
While 3D/CGI comics have not been embraced by the Big Two fully yet, a lot of their artists use DAZ, Poser, and Sketchup, such as Mikel Janin, David Finch, Greg Land, Greg Horn, Jan Duursema, Pete Woods, Mike Deodato, among others. There are also a number of Image and Top Cow comics that you can identify are using the same tech and programs.
Brian Haberlin also has the recent graphic novel Anomaly that is mostly Poser rendered.
The problem is most major comic companies find there isn't a big market for CGI comics beyond the web. Usually the argument is the uncanny valley, that people having access to the same resources make the product non-unique, and that it's "too easy". Some of the points are valid, but others are hogwash and just people not open to change or something new.
If you have the time, do check my comic. First issue's free (in pdf, cbz, and epub formats) http://comics.drivethrustuff.com/index.php?manufacturers_id=4502 (also available in Amazon in mobi format).
I don't necessarily buy into the "too easy" part, but there's something to be said for the uniqueness, that which makes it stand out from all the others. It's easy to see artistic uniqueness if an artist pencils and inks the pages, but it's a little more challenging to see it when the base is a straight render of DAZ/Poser models.
Shane is a good example of uniqueness, the stark minimalist black and white imagery is quickly identifiable as his "artwork", and that's memorable.
Another memorable comic of DAZ inspired rendered comic pages I've seen is Black Heaven by IamUman, but it is leap and bounds beyond a standard 3D render with all the exquisite lighting and artistic postwork that's lifts it to another level. Check out the deviant art page.
http://iamuman.deviantart.com/gallery/27585496
As someone that did a bit of 'scribbling' before my hands went to pot I can tell you it is easier and faster to draw a figure in a dramatic pose than it is to pose a 3D figure. The tedious and slow part of drawing was mechanical and architectural elements. I haven't picked up a comic in years but I still watch cartoons and have been noticing 3D being used for said mechanical and architectural elements, especially when they are re-occurring elements that need to look consistent from different angles week after week.
I find there are 3 problems with 3D renders as comic art - at least at the DAZ/Poser level.
Faces of 3D figures are unexpressive - in a realistic manner. It's as if they all had botox injected into every part of their face. I've never been able to get a natural open-mouth smile on any 3D figure. Human faces are infinitely expressive, and that can be duplicated with drawn comics.
The second drawback, in my opinion, is fabric. Fabric is as expressive and as ever changing as faces are. Wrinkles, folds, draping, and movement can be brilliantly drawn and shaded in comic books. With 3D figures, for the most part, fabric looks as molded and stiff as solid plastic. Using dynamic fabric on a room full of figures is a logistical nightmare. Zbrush seems to be great for sculpting, but in reality, wrinkles etc. do not remain in exactly the same position no matter how a figure moves.
The third problem - dialogue balloons drawn on a drawn comic looks ok. Dialogue ballons superimposed on a 3D render looks incongruous.
As for the "uniqueness" of drawn comics verses 3D renders which use purchased 3D models - for decades Hollywood movies were photographed on studio backlots using the same sets and scenery. Hundreds and hundreds of movies and TV shows were filmed on the same fake "New York street", the same "cowboy/western town", the same "small town America street", the same "tropical lagoon". The same furniture was also used in a thousand different movies and TV shows. The same old "John Wayne" appeared in dozens of cowboy movies. The same painted sky, the same water tank, the same fake plants, same cars, same horses etc. Costumes were recycled over and over again for years.
What is unique about superhero outfits? Lycra bodysuits, boots, capes, masks - none of it is partiqularly unique.
If you go with straight, unaltered renders, then yes, a lot of the limitations will appear. Postwork is essential, if not mandatory. I certainly take a lot of time with each panel just to address the most glaring limitations, and yet I'll never get them all without sacrificing a lot of time doing so.
On that note, CGI comics, if you really want them to defeat the limitations you mentioned, will take work. A LOT of work. But given the amount of time and effort it would take, you'd be better off doing that for animation or gaming. Which is another factor as to why 3D/CGI comics are not as mainstream as it could be. It just isn't as rewarding financially rather than exploring other avenues.
With regard to the uniqueness, major companies want to keep things as proprietary as possible (it's in their best interests to do so). Although DAZ and Poser and the products associated with them have licensing for purchased items to be used freely in derivative works, companies, like say Disney, frown at the idea that someone else might be using the same sets for their own productions, regardless of how generic they may be. Heck, Disney would slap a copyright and trademark on anything they can get away with.
DC seems to be more lenient with regard to this, though, as Mikel Janin (Justice League Dark) uses a lot of paid sets (just last issue of JLD, I saw the Dystopia Console and Stonemason's Section 19 set pieces as backgrounds). A couple of friends who work at DC also mentioned to me how DC is more loose these days with regard to using Sketchup for backgrounds. Given that DC was a pioneer with this kind of medium (like in Batman: Digital Justice), I wouldn't be surprised if DC does more with it sooner than Marvel.
Still, I think there's a lot of hurdles and misconceptions that still need to be overcome before these major companies embrace 3D/CGI comics fully. Then again, the industry keeps changing and at a much faster pace than ever, so maybe it's sooner than later.
Agreed. AerySoul, aka can't remember the new name right now. Does the best with this, but a key to making this better is making parts of an out fit attached props, like a loin cloth, it should NOT follow the left AND right legs. It's not attached to them, it should follow kinetic movement and gravity.
Once again, laziness on the part of the artist, I've see great dialogue balloons on Poser comics and I've see crappy.
I'd really appreciate it if you could post a link or two showing DAZ/Poser figures with realistic expressions because it's something I'm totally frustrated with. Do they achieve it by just turning dials, or do they have to resculpt the face somehow?
Fair point, but even professional comics often reduce folds to just a hint (which isn't necessarily a criticism), and in the hands of someone who knows what they're doing Poser/Studio can often do at least as well. I know of at least one web-comic, a Poser/Cinema 3D hybrid) where the author repainted clothing after rendering to get the folds and their shadows exactly as he wanted - but that's a particularly time-intensive work-flow. OTOH, there are a lot of comics out there, including professional ones, where clothing as a whole seems to be an afterthought, to the point that comics where the artist does plan outfits like a real person would just leap out at you.
I'm amused at how often I can spot the guilty party in crime shows, just by recognising that the actor playing them tends not to get minor walk-on parts ;)
I've seen them with realist expressions (been a long time) but I'm actually referring more about comic book type of expressions which tend to be over exaggerated (everything comic book is over exaggerated). When I started out expressions were an area that EXTREMELY frustrated me until I noticed it's the asymmetrical part that MAKES them look real. It's unnerving how one asymmetrical tweak livens up the expression. Once again, I consider this Genesis's BIGGEST weakness. AND WHEN I WENT BACK TO CHECK, a lot of the expression WERE custom morphs. Wasn't aware of that.
I can't post any images/links I frequent as.... Daz does not approve of my circle of friends, so to speak.
But they do exist, hmmmm all of my go to expressions were from LQ (Renderosity no longer available) and Joele Gecko (not sure where I got those) and I've noticed something else to now that I went back over it. ALL of those poser renderings with good expressions use Gen 3 models, Aiko 3, Victoria 3, Michael 3. I remember one of the reasons I never migrated to V4 was the lack of expression morphs. It may be that the new Gen 4 and up models DON'T HAVE THE EXPRESSION VERSATILITY of the Gen 3 models.
I do think http://www.daz3d.com/expressions/sans-pokerface-expressions-for-girl-6 is one of the best expression sets I've seen in recent memory.
I'd really appreciate it if you could post a link or two showing DAZ/Poser figures with realistic expressions because it's something I'm totally frustrated with . . .
http://kickair8p.deviantart.com/art/Sugar-Jag-167497314
http://kickair8p.deviantart.com/art/Last-Line-of-Defense-183965947
http://kickair8p.deviantart.com/art/Sacred-Geometry-Searching-205209901
http://kickair8p.deviantart.com/art/SacredGeometry-Confrontation-211782165
http://kickair8p.deviantart.com/art/Enchanting-a-Self-Cleaning-Cha-167337447
http://kickair8p.deviantart.com/art/Grandma-s-Swim-Cap-365192628
http://kickair8p.deviantart.com/art/Senshi-Suisei-Targeted-350605022
http://kickair8p.deviantart.com/art/Train-horn-Alarm-348232202
http://kickair8p.deviantart.com/art/Monica-Rambeau-CConcept01-349705811
http://kickair8p.deviantart.com/art/Black-Alice-Right-Out-of-the-Sky-310307863
http://kickair8p.deviantart.com/art/An-Hour-After-the-Chance-Meeting-289531090
http://kickair8p.deviantart.com/art/Touching-Through-Time-195393152
http://kickair8p.deviantart.com/art/It-Can-t-Be-167564770
That's a bit more than two, but I'd say they show the best expressions I've rendered. Much as I love Genesis, going through these I'd have to say the Mil4s came across as more realistic -- but for the Genesis ones, my most evocative were achieved with a few percent of Mr Hyde's "Mouth Grin" or "Mouth Open Wide" added in.
While 3D/CGI comics have not been embraced by the Big Two fully yet, a lot of their artists use DAZ, Poser, and Sketchup, such as Mikel Janin, David Finch, Greg Land, Greg Horn, Jan Duursema, Pete Woods, Mike Deodato, among others. There are also a number of Image and Top Cow comics that you can identify are using the same tech and programs.
Brian Haberlin also has the recent graphic novel Anomaly that is mostly Poser rendered.
The problem is most major comic companies find there isn't a big market for CGI comics beyond the web. Usually the argument is the uncanny valley, that people having access to the same resources make the product non-unique, and that it's "too easy". Some of the points are valid, but others are hogwash and just people not open to change or something new.
If you have the time, do check my comic. First issue's free (in pdf, cbz, and epub formats) http://comics.drivethrustuff.com/index.php?manufacturers_id=4502 (also available in Amazon in mobi format).
There have been 3D comics, there was an old Iron Man one in the 90s, but they've never really caught on.
Now this is all just my opinion, but with people like Greg Land, it's not that is too easy, or uncanny valley, but that it is an inappropriate use of images, many times leaving me wishing he had used 3D instead of whatever porn he found on the net. Land certainly looks like he traces some stuff directly, and as a result, the angles can be wrong, the lighting, and the emotions can be totally wrong. Many people, who care much more about it than I do, have shown side-by-side examples of the porn images he has used as a reference, and some superheroine throwing an exaggerated "O" face in the midst of an otherwise low-key scene can be a bit disconcerting... I don't think he is highly regarded by his peers, but his "art" tends to sell books, so, whatever I think about it, his "photo-realism" seems to have an audience. Though it certainly is not to my taste.
Interestingly enough, I can (sometimes) get a similar feeling from some of Alex Ross' stuff. For all his excellent painting technique, his devotion to photo-reference, which he does not trace, or use a lightbox, or artograph doesn't always work for me. He doesn't use clip files, he gets people to dress up and pose "heroically" which to me comes off as lacking in dynamic feeling. It's like looking at a beautiful painting of a expertly crafted statue, pretty to look at, but you never believe anything is actually moving. In theory, he does everything "right" but it can still feel as dead as a tracing.
So, where is the happy medium? Well, if I knew that I might be able to actually draw, which I can't. :-)
I think the advantage is the other way around. Take a look at the expressions that the character Aileana goes through in this link http://requiem.spiderforest.com/?tag=aileana-noels . I'm fairly certain she's V4-based - she certainly spends a good chunk of time wearing V4 Bunny Dazed starting on page 3 - and I think I recognise some of her expressions as either directly from V4 morph sets, or starting from them. I've seem good V3 expressions, but I'm not sure that I've seen them reach this level. In fact in the bar scene that starts on page 3 it's noticeable that Dumuzi just doesn't seem to have the same flexibility of expression, I don't know what figure he's based on, but I'd automatically say M3 if asked to guess.
"Realistic" expressions is relative. You can exaggerate the faces and it will still seem "real" if your audience can feel it. However, this is a very difficult skill to master, whether in traditional or digital media.
While there are products that give preset expressions, they are rarely ideal for every situation. I use them more often as a starting point and then tweak them continuously until I get the look and feel I'm looking for. Sadly, this takes a lot of time, sometimes even longer than setting up the overall scene. The trick is making an expression that does not look like it was prepackaged or that it only took a few spins on the dial to produce.
The best way to do it is draw from real faces. Use a mirror and look at your features when making the expression you need for the scene. Take note of the different nuances the face makes. Then try copying it.
While I do not claim to be an expert in this, I do find some of the results I produce are satisfactory for my needs. Here's a sample from the second issue of my own comic (All the characters in these scenes are Genesis 1, FYI) :
Interesting discussion.
I have friends who are professional comic drawers and I know their standpoint on 3D: they oppose it.
And if I'm to be honest, the points they're making have nothing to do with 3D art not being a good medium because of the outcome, but because a lot of artists concider drawing by hand something that's holy to them because it demands skill and they practised for so long.
In every discussion I express the same opinion as I'll state here: if you have 0 talent, don't have any feeling for compostion, color and so on, you not only will be a lousy drawer, but also be a lousy 3D artist.
I see 3D software nothing more and nothing less then a pencil in an artist's hand, you need to try, fall, try again, and so on, just like with every other skill you want to acquire.
I do agree that 3D has limits, but so does drawing by hand.
Like the point I read about the textballoons, it's true that in the classic way balloons have been used is not a good solution for 3D .
In the comic link by DWG I saw that the maker user see-through textballoons in order to make them more in harmony with the surrounding panel, which is already a step away from classic comicbook making.
This discussion has my sincere interest because I have been working towards a 3D comic for quite some time now.
The points mentioned here, especially about the textballoons, is something that I am still wresteling with and is quite a barricate to overcome.
It's a new terrain we are exploring and no real standards have been set because of that.
I do agree with Fauvist on the fabric and expression part.
For now, low-end software is still lacking but that will only be a matter of time before that has been tackled as well, I am sure.
In today's movies sometimes 75% of what we look at are rendered images.
It's only a logic step that in other visual imaging the development towards 3D will happen as well.
Yeah, Greg Land is a serial plagiarist. While tracing is perfectly fine if used as a reference, Land literally just swipes images as is and passes it off as his own. He swipes faces particularly, from websites and magazines, then uses Poser for the bodies. Heck, he even swipes himself and recycles often.
As for why he's been in the industry so long even with such notoriety, according to a couple of friends at Marvel, Land gets jobs, not because of talent, but because of speed. He produces work really fast especially when someone needs to pinch hit for a title. The big companies like DC and Marvel don't just look at talent but also productivity. Speed and reliability is equally important with the Big Two.
In 1998 DC Comics (Helix imprint) published a graphic novel The Dome: Ground Zero. It was innovative at the time, but by today's standards, the 3D characters look too stiff.
In 2002 Marvel Comics published a 4 issue mini-series Spider-Man Quality of Life . The creators used 3D Max4 and Character Studio. There was a scene when Peter tried to sell some photos of Spider-Man and Doc Ock to Mr Jameson, and Mr Jameson accuses Peter of "using Fotosweet or Poseur" to create those pictures.
Thanks for the links folks - some of the expressions are pretty good! And thanks for telling me about Greg Land - I never heard of him, so I googled him, and there's examples of photos and the traced pictures.
I much prefer looking at 3D renders to drawings, and 3D animation to flat drawn cartoons. I find 3D renders exciting. And just because a picture is a 3D render doesn't mean that a lot of postwork can't be added to enhance what's rendered.
There's a book out called Norman Rockwell Behind the Camera http://www.amazon.com/Norman-Rockwell-Behind-Ron-Schick/dp/0316006939/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1380232993&sr=1-1&keywords=norman+rockwell+photography the shows how he dressed and posed human models and photographed them, then traced the photographs using a projector. Later in his career, he painted directly onto the projected image.
I can understand traditional comic artists resisting 3D, since that's not what they know how to do. And a few comic artists have a unique talent and style which is valuable in itself. But what I don't understand is why the big comic book publishers reject 3D renders for comics. The motion picture industry embraces 3D models and art, and movie audiences accept it as entertaining.
Even if they rejected pre-made, purchased models, they could create their own unique models.
Perhaps, because it been that way for so long, it's considered acceptable for movies. And by the very nature of acting, the actor is suppose to portray a character.
But if the characters of Darth Vader and the Storm Troopers were used to portray Cylons in the reboot of Battlestar Galactica, the show would have bombed big time. That's the difference between an actor and a character. I think distinct looking 3D models are viewed more as characters than actors.
Sometimes see-through text balloons can make it harder to read if there's not a lot of contrast between the color of the text and the image behind them.
For 3D text, how about adding a drop shadow?
I don't think I ever seen V4 renders with that much expression in them. And the rendering, scene, posing is well done. Now... dialogue balloons....... >_<</p>
ANYWAY, I've been doing webcomics off an on (off as in stuck in the Middle east and no access to internet/poser for a year to 18 months at a time) since 2006. I didn't think I was at the quality level with Poser to do any ACTUAL putting in on the internet and calling a comic until 2008. And I still make improvements in my style and method that make me want to go back and redo old pages.
Most of my improvement has been comparing my pages to what I consider to be the comics I WANT mine to look like, all drawn comics and mostly a Manga style. It was that constant comparing to them that's caused to be to refine my dialogue balloons (still not satisfied with them) and expressions/posing. I've only recently gotten happy with my lighting system (which is based off the Renderman system Pixar uses for their movies). But, I'm sure I'll look back in a few years and think my current output is atrocious. :P
I much prefer looking at 3D renders to drawings, and 3D animation to flat drawn cartoons. I find 3D renders exciting. And just because a picture is a 3D render doesn't mean that a lot of postwork can't be added to enhance what's rendered.
Totally agree, there's just something about well done 3D imagery. And Disney and other companies are switching to it. I don't consider it a replacement for 2D just a different medium.
Even if they rejected pre-made, purchased models, they could create their own unique models.
The Big Publishers are archaic and slow. Think of the Newspaper magnates of forty years ago. They're just now starting to grasp the internet and digital content. Comic books should be going after the mobile phone market, charging a monthly fee to their titles and raking in a continued membership fee. Print will never go away but as each new generation has less attachment to print and more familiarity with digital, that's where the market will shift. Course, all the big comic companies have been BOUGHT by other more digital savvy media companies haven't they?
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I found some images from the 3D modeled Spider-Man comics. They look very toon-ish, which was probably a mistake in judgement on the part of the publisher. http://trivto.deviantart.com/art/Digital-Modeling-of-Spider-Man-Quality-of-Life-324791966
It looks like they were trying to apply drawn comic perspective to the 3D pictures, which had the effect of making them look like they were photographed through an extreme wide-angle lens. It also looks like, instead of creating models that could be taken seriously, they created models that were cartoon charactures of people.
I found some images from the 3D modeled Spider-Man comics. They look very toon-ish, which was probably a mistake in judgement on the part of the publisher. http://trivto.deviantart.com/art/Digital-Modeling-of-Spider-Man-Quality-of-Life-324791966
It looks like they were trying to apply drawn comic perspective to the 3D pictures, which had the effect of making them look like they were photographed through an extreme wide-angle lens. It also looks like, instead of creating models that could be taken seriously, they created models that were cartoon charactures of people.
I looked at that and thought, that looks like The Dreamland Chronicles.... and then I did some research on it to pull up a higher rez image, and sure enough, Cover and art by Scott Christian Sava. I know he's REAL popular in the webcomic community but there's a bit of the "uncanny valley" with his modeling and textures. I'm not sure what it is about it though that gives me the heebee geebees.
And from the author of the Spider Man series' webpage: "This page includes both what Greg feels is his worst work in comics, ever, Spider-Man: Quality of Life, and one of his best, Tangled Web #4, “Severance Package.”"
One I always bring up is Sinka. Definitely not published by one of the big houses, but has been reprinted in Heavy Metal magazine. Sinkha is an amazing multimedia labour of love. Work began on it back in the early 90s when most of the modelling, texturing, and posing technology we take for granted didn't exist. The main character's mesh had to be split in half and stored on two seperate floppy disks, and by todays standard she was a very simple mesh indeed. Most of the work was done by the author himself, Marco Patrito (trad artist famed with a bazillion sci-fi covers). As far as I've read all the assets were created from scratch and all the textures were hand drawn, so every issue took years of work to put together.
It's not clear if the project is still on going, but it has been sitting silent (other than reissue) since 2007. You can pick up the multimedia versions from the above website for a few bucks a piece (CD or download) or from Heavy Metal as a downloadable. I doubt the ones from Heavy Metal are the multimedia version though.
While I never found myself fully absorbed by the story I did thoroughly enjoy the series on a creative/artistic level.
I've actually been meaning to write an enormously belated review for my blog. It really is inspiring stuff, especially if you are a modeller, but there is no reason something similar couldn't be achieved with stock content.
Yeah, the 3D Spider-Man comic looked more like a 3D cartoon for kids rather than for realism.
You can see some decent resolution of the first 3 pages of all 4 issues here (have to scroll down)
http://www.milehighcomics.com/cgi-bin/backissue.cgi?action=list&title=79015327208&snumber=1
For novelty sake, The Dome can also be purchased here (no preview of interior art though)
http://www.milehighcomics.com/cgi-bin/backissue.cgi?action=list&title=25895029568&snumber=1
I would not purchase anything with the condition grade less than "Fine"
You know, that's some rather impressive 3D rendering and modeling CONSIDERING that was 2002. It's not really fair to compare that with today's modeling, Software for modeling and texturing plus computing power's improved dramatically since then. You can morph INSIDE Poser now, even. :P For the time period I'd expect that was exactly the look they were going for in a comic. If you look at the toon models we had back then, 3DUniverse was doing The Heavies (was 3DUniverse known as Dark Whisperer or something?) and Toony Cat. Things are way more detailed now.
...Precisely like this.