Questions about creating 3D Relief Models for CNC machining
bockbmg
Posts: 0
I just bought Hexagon, and downloaded DAZ Studio 4.6 Pro.
I’m a professional wood worker, with a CNC router table, and my goal with this 3D software is to create models that can then be converted to reliefs so I can tool-path them and route them out of wood & other materials on my 3-axis CNC machine.
My goal with this software is to be able to pose models, (People, Animals, & Plants) and create 3D Reliefs that I can then bring into my CNC tool path software, then finally create CNC routed objects from my 3-axis machine.
Does anybody here do that? Any tips for me? I don't even know where to start.
Thanks!
Chris
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Note that the EULA does not currently allow making real 3D versions of DAZ content (using your own content, created in Hexagon, would be fine). If you are wanting to do this with DAZ content I would suggest opening a support ticket to ask about the status of the special 3D printing license mentioned in the EULA before proceeding.
I was under the impression if no geometry is transferred, there is no infringement.
Renderings may be used commercially, and 3d information can be reconstituted from certain kinds of renderings (ie Zbuffer). This actually came up in a discussion a while back, and unless Daz has changed their policy to disallow commercial use of renderings, any method that generates 3d from an image is NOT restricted by the licensing.
Discussions in the forums are just that "discussions". Now and then somebody with "DAZ" in front of their handle/name shows up and makes a comment or two. For any type of a definitive answer with regards to this type of usage, best to contact the company [via the Help/Zendesk route up top] and wait a bit for an answer.
However, not to be discouraged ... there are lots of models around in different websites ... just always check with the user agreements and 'when in doubt' or 'when really wanting to use something', simply ask the creator of the product.
I use Hexagon a lot. One can model lots of things with it ... there's a forum for Hexagon where questions [and hopefully answers] may be posted.
Generally speaking, what you model yourself, you can do with as you please.
[exceptions are of course for fanart and stuff like that]
Thanks for the info. I think I saw a DAZ video that indicated that models I bought and used with DAZ software were mine to do with what I pleased. However, I did a lot of 3D software searching that day, and may not have been a DAZ software video... I'll have to see if I can find that video again, and watch it more closely.
I surely don't want to violate any copyrights. So I'll make sure all is okay before doing any machining. I'm brand new to 3D, and really only know what I want to end up with in the end. I've really know idea how to get from here to there, yet.
Thanks!
Chris
Here is the way I understand this. This is my interpretation, not a legal view point. Only DAZ or your lawyers can give you a legal opinion.
The basic rule of thumb is you can do what you want with renders from the items purchased here, but you cannot re-distribute the mesh.
So making a render and selling it is a poster, or a book cover, and things like that are fine (as long as the licenses are for commercial use, some free items are not).
Fixing and sending the mesh to a 3-D printing company would violate the license, unless you purchased the 3D printing licenses that DAZ does not offer yet. Making and selling Vicky dolls would be as well without the license.
One grey area that I have wondered about is rendering a depth map and using that. I actually have a CarveWright. (Would not buy one again, but we live and learn.) If I set up scene and rendered a depth map, I can use that rendered image. But If I put that image into the CW software and route the image out, is that legal? I don't know. In any case, woodworking is just a hobby, so I have not plans to try, but I've always wondered.
ncamp
ncamp, I've never seen a CarveWright in person... They look kinda neat, though. Would you buy a larger CNC machine if you didn't get the CarveWright? I have a 3-Axis 4' x 8' router with a 5 horepower spindle and about 3" to 5" of Z depending on how it's set up and what's being machined.
The mesh, or height map, or whatever digital version I'd end up with with DAZ would live in my computer. It'd only be the final machined item that I'd sell... So maybe that'd be within the DAZ terms of use... I'll check that out if I find out that the DAZ software and models would work for me at all.
The height map you posted... I could create a tool path from that and machine it with the software I have now. The problem with that kind of image comes when it's not the only part of the job that needs to be routed. I can also import a mesh if it's created as a relief, and then tool path it, along with any other vectors in the design. I just got this new tool path software, so I haven't tried importing a full 3D mesh to see what it would do.
Thanks,
Chris
Could it have been Makehuman models you saw? Those models are 100% free and you can do what you want with them.
I would like a larger machine, but I don't have room for one the size of yours. I've been looking around for something in the 18" x 24" range or a little bigger. The biggest problem with the CarveWright is that it works like a big printer. It moves the router in the Y and Z directions, but moves the wood in the X direction. If the wood slips, then you have wasted a lot of material.
Back to the licenses, I would recommend that you open up a support ticket with DAZ. Let them know what you are looking to accomplish. They can tell you if it falls under the agreement, if a new license would be required, or that it is not allowed. If you have not done it before, click on the help tab above and select contact us.
I'm mainly a Carrara user, not a Hexagon user (Although I do have Hex). Now days, I'm learning Modo as well. It does not handle content natively, but it is a more powerful modeling tool. As far as wood working goes, I've used the tools to build scroll work models for routing, but that is about it.
Good luck,
ncamp
As a general principle, renders are not distributable if the original content can be extracted from them. For example, you can't create a plane, apply a texture from a product to it, and render it and then distribute that render -- that is equivalent to distributing the original texture even though it's not the exact same file. If the geometry can be extracted from a render or series of renders, that is not distributable.
I would like a larger machine, but I don't have room for one the size of yours. I've been looking around for something in the 18" x 24" range or a little bigger. The biggest problem with the CarveWright is that it works like a big printer. It moves the router in the Y and Z directions, but moves the wood in the X direction. If the wood slips, then you have wasted a lot of material.
Back to the licenses, I would recommend that you open up a support ticket with DAZ. Let them know what you are looking to accomplish. They can tell you if it falls under the agreement, if a new license would be required, or that it is not allowed. If you have not done it before, click on the help tab above and select contact us.
I'm mainly a Carrara user, not a Hexagon user (Although I do have Hex). Now days, I'm learning Modo as well. It does not handle content natively, but it is a more powerful modeling tool. As far as wood working goes, I've used the tools to build scroll work models for routing, but that is about it.
Good luck,
ncamp
No matter how big your machine is, you could always use a bigger one at some point, right? You can do a lot with a smaller machine... Particularly if you have a lot of Z.
I'll open a support ticket. Thanks for your help.
Chris
This is NOT consistent with what was discussed previously. I believe the licensing terminology must be updated. Please make the corrections so that the usage is not ambiguous. You are essentially indicating that a person cannot use their eyes and brain to process an image to construct a 3d model. Using Daz models as a reference for sculpting real life models has NEVER been a limitation previously.
This is NOT consistent with what was discussed previously. I believe the licensing terminology must be updated. Please make the corrections so that the usage is not ambiguous. You are essentially indicating that a person cannot use their eyes and brain to process an image to construct a 3d model. Using Daz models as a reference for sculpting real life models has NEVER been a limitation previously.
There's a big difference between looking at a render with your eyes to use it as an indirect guide for drawing or sculpting, and converting it using mathematical transformations into renders from which the transformations can be reversed.
NO there is not. The eye/brain is an information processing device. So is the computer & software. They are tools.
What you are suggesting is that Daz somehow owns the process of interpreting a 2d image into 3d. They do not.
DAZ has the legal rights to the content, or is an agent of those who have the rights to the content. They choose to license certain uses and not others - you may not feel the way they do is logical, but I'm afraid it is the current position and as rights holders or managers it is their decision to make.
I didn't mean to cause an uproar, and I'm not trying to fan the flames, and I'm not a lawyer, and I'll open a support ticket, and I won't do anything I don't have a license to do, and I don't want to get kicked off the forums... Lots of 'ands' in there, eh? Haha
I read the EULA, and I understand it would require a special license in order to send the digital file to a 3rd party for 3D printing or CNC machining, because they'd now have the licensed content that they didn't pay for.
The section in bold blue below, from the EULA, states the 3rd party transfer stuff, but doesn't deal with the fact that I wouldn't be transfering the digital file to a 3rd party. Maybe DAZ needs to fix that, or maybe it means it's okay for me to create the physical 3D parts. I don't know, and I will find out before I proceed.
Physical images (3D-print, molded copy, CNC-routed copy, and the like) of Content or any art derived from the Content is permitted only by User’s purchase from DAZ, via the User’s online DAZ store account, permission to deliver User’s derived works (art), including necessary Content, to an entity that creates 3D-images in a physical medium. User may then deliver User’s art in file format to that 3rd-party to have physical images printed or created, up to the limitations set forth in the online DAZ Store as delineated on the purchase page associated with the permission product. These limitations govern (i) personal and/or commercial use of the physical, printed images; and (ii) the quantity of 3-D printed images allowed.
I'm guessing I'll need to get a special license from the owner of the model(s) and the EULA will be updated. Heck, I don't even know if I'll be able to figure out how to do what I want anyway, so this might all be for not.
Thanks,
Chris
Just a tip to all on the subject, the publishers of Renderosity have recently updated / clarified a much more liberal policy and now allow this sort of commercial use wher apparently you can make physical products for sale derived from using their licensed media as long as the original cannot be extracted/reproduced from the resulting product. There is a thread in Renderosity's MarketPlace Wishing Well Forum where it described permitted use in cnc, printing, games and 3d publishing etc.
Does that policy change hold only to products that now bear the RPublishing brand or does the change apply to all vendors who sell at Rendo?
what if I want to make a bunch of Genesis based figures I can send those models to be sculpted on 3D printer, I just can't sell them or give them away once their made, even if I've modified their geometries in another application (which sounds similar to the gaming license)
Is that how this is read?
I read it to say that it is only permissible once you have purchased the necessary license from DAZ 3D and that license will then lay out what is or is not permissible.
So it will be necessary to first get in touch with Daz 3D and inquire about said license.
I read it to say that it is only permissible once you have purchased the necessary license from DAZ 3D and that license will then lay out what is or is not permissible.
So it will be necessary to first get in touch with Daz 3D and inquire about said license.
I did request once with regards to printing one for personal use on a personally owned 3D printer and the answer was no.
We have to wait for somekind of a license to be sold.
Or we can go get that other figure which AFAIK one can do this with.
Would be very nice if aside from all the legal mumble jumble, "any" legal form also spoke plain English.
For some reason all this "how would one do" the project you're interested in has been on my mind. I don't know the answer but would be interested to know "how" the models would need to be made in order for you to proceed with your project.
"open"
"closed"
"with" or "without" thickness to the "walls"
that type of thing.
If you have any links to the software and/or instructions for this feel free to PM them my way. Some nights I do a lot of Googling, might come across something.
I don't know if having the model closed or having thickness would matter for tool paths. Unlike a 3D printer, a router is only going to make the outside of the object.
For some reason all this "how would one do" the project you're interested in has been on my mind. I don't know the answer but would be interested to know "how" the models would need to be made in order for you to proceed with your project.
"open"
"closed"
"with" or "without" thickness to the "walls"
that type of thing.
If you have any links to the software and/or instructions for this feel free to PM them my way. Some nights I do a lot of Googling, might come across something.
Hi Patience,
I don't yet even know what an 'open and/or closed' model is... My guess is that an open model is something like a model of a piece of tubing. I do understand wall thickness. In order for me to be able to tool path a model for my 3-Axis machine, a fully 3D model needs to be converted into a relief model. This is all new to me, and I'm still learning my new tool path software, so it's possible that the software I have now will be able to do this. I've also seen reference to making relief models from 3D Mesh online.
At this point, I don't have much more figured out than knowing it can be done. My new tool path software is ArtCAM Express... Just the entry level version at this point, but additional modules are available to add more 3D functionality. I also use Vectric VCarvePro, and Vectric PhotoVCarve for tool pathing. Vectric has a full 3D design & tool pathing package, but it's a $1500 upgrade for me. Once I get the 3-Axis modeling nailed, I'll venture into 4-Axis. I'm able to add a 4th, Rotary Axis, to my CNC machine. That would allow machining fully 3D models, including some undercutting. Baby steps!
I just dove in to the 3D world, and am not even totally wet, yet... I'll update this thread, or start a new thread, or both, as I make progress.
Chris
I checked them out and didn't see anything in their TOS indicating more liberal use... I just see the standard stuff saying you have to adhere to the licensing that the creator of the content allows.
Can you point me to what you saw regarding this?
Thanks,
Chris
Hi Patience,
I don't yet even know what an 'open and/or closed' model is... My guess is that an open model is something like a model of a piece of tubing. I do understand wall thickness. In order for me to be able to tool path a model for my 3-Axis machine, a fully 3D model needs to be converted into a relief model. This is all new to me, and I'm still learning my new tool path software, so it's possible that the software I have now will be able to do this. I've also seen reference to making relief models from 3D Mesh online.
At this point, I don't have much more figured out than knowing it can be done. My new tool path software is ArtCAM Express... Just the entry level version at this point, but additional modules are available to add more 3D functionality. I also use Vectric VCarvePro, and Vectric PhotoVCarve for tool pathing. Vectric has a full 3D design & tool pathing package, but it's a $1500 upgrade for me. Once I get the 3-Axis modeling nailed, I'll venture into 4-Axis. I'm able to add a 4th, Rotary Axis, to my CNC machine. That would allow machining fully 3D models, including some undercutting. Baby steps!
I just dove in to the 3D world, and am not even totally wet, yet... I'll update this thread, or start a new thread, or both, as I make progress.
Chris
A closed model would be akin to a cube, solid all around.
An open model as in for 3D printing in plastic, would be a cube inside a cube with the mesh joined together to make a thick wall [not too thick] but there would also be a physical hole designed at the bottom so the machine doesn't have to waste plastic making the inside solid.
Looks like an interesting venture for sure.
Richard,
You are obviously not familiar with what is being discussed here. There is no transfer of information or data from the original work.
I can look at an image by eye and REINTERPRET the depth information myself, or use a software tool to reinterpret into a DIFFERENT format from the original. Nothing that existed previously is being used. It is ludicrous to place a restriction on something which does not belong to you to begin with.
Unless, of course, you are stating that commercial use of ANY render is not allowed. That means any usage is suspect. Should users be worried that Daz's interpretation of "commercial" usage is on a case by case basis?
Somebody makes a comic book using Daz models and then Daz arbitrarily decides that they don't like how the images are used for whatever reason?
I think Daz has a lot of work to do to clarify exactly what is acceptable usage and what is not, or else, lose customers because no one can count on "commercial" usage being safe.
To restate, Daz does not own any process that can generate a model based on depth information. They do not own the functioning of human vision systems nor any software that can do the same. To claim that no one can create a model from a render has no basis in fact.
Now if you indicate renders cannot be used commercially, that is a completely different matter.
Richard,
You are obviously not familiar with what is being discussed here. There is no transfer of information or data from the original work.
I can look at an image by eye and REINTERPRET the depth information myself, or use a software tool to reinterpret into a DIFFERENT format from the original. Nothing that existed previously is being used. It is ludicrous to place a restriction on something which does not belong to you to begin with.
Unless, of course, you are stating that commercial use of ANY render is not allowed. That means any usage is suspect. Should users be worried that Daz's interpretation of "commercial" usage is on a case by case basis?
Somebody makes a comic book using Daz models and then Daz arbitrarily decides that they don't like how the images are used for whatever reason?
I think Daz has a lot of work to do to clarify exactly what is acceptable usage and what is not, or else, lose customers because no one can count on "commercial" usage being safe.
Looking at an image by eye as a guide is a very different thing from converting into a different format. If you have the ability to look at a render and create an exact replica of the mesh by eye, I am very impressed, but unless you can do that on demand in front of a judge I seriously doubt you would prevail in court. Converting a mesh into a different format with software is unquestionably copying the mesh.
DAZ 3D doesn't have to own the software, they own the mesh.
I believe Poser was originally developed for artists to set up scenes using human figures that could then be used as a model for painting or sculpting. If I can't use Daz figures to do the same, perhaps it is not a useful tool for my work.
Note you cannot make an exact copy of a mesh from a heightmap. And, I don't see why there is a distinction between using my eyes and brain to interpret depth information, or a software tool.
If the real issue is that Daz is saying they don't want anyone to use a heightmap to generate a model, which they can do of course, then they need to put that SPECIFICALLY in the licensing.
Daz can say they don't want anyone to render chocolate chip cookies either. Just be sure to put that in the licensing too.