Backward compatibility issues with clothing on Genesis 8 - Shoes not fitting
Hello All,
When I got Daz Studio I read that Genesis 8 is backward compatible with clothing and accessories for Genesis 2 and 3. While I found that to be mostly true, I have run into an issue when it comes to heeled shoes and boots. If you look at the photo below, a picture speaks 1000 words as to what is happening. Is there a way to fix this? As it is, I would like to buy more clothing for my Genesis 8 figures and I see that Genesis 3 has some nice things. However, if this keeps happening with the shoes, then I will not buy anymore Genesis 2 and 3 clothing.
Thanks
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Shoes have always caused problems from one generation to the next, (or so I've read from people who've been doing this for far longer than I.) G8 wearing G3 shoes is probably the best, imo, as long as they don't have significant heels.
However, G3 heeled footwear is still do-able. Take a look at this tutorial from Sickleyield: [Tutorial] Convert Clothing G3 to G8, G8 to G3. Scroll down a little way to "Genesis 3 to Genesis 8 High-Heeled Shoes." There is a video, as well.
Good luck, and have fun.
In my experience you will never get a good fit no matter what method you try until you actually rerig it to work on G8 or just parent it.
Wow! I would say that is a pretty big gaff on Daz's part in terms of compatibility. So it does look like a good chunk of Gen 2 clothing I bought I am going to get my money back on because of that. At least with Gen 3 I can use that tutorial. Sheesh! It would have been nice to know that ahead of time!
Thank you.
I believe the tutorial that L'Adair linked to above does describe something with re-rerigging to get it to work. I just glanced at the instructions really quick. I am going to go through it in depth later, but for now I am just getting ready for work and checking my messages. But still, even though with the tutorial it looks like I can get G3 to work with G8 (and vice versa), it is still more hoop jumping than anticipated and as such because I didn't know this before hand, much of the Gen 2 high heel stuff I put in my wish list I have to now take out so I don't accidentally buy it.
I am also assuming this issue is going to happen with male clothing if it has an appreciable heel.
Anyway, thank you as well. I just wish I knew this information before buying some Gen 3 and Gen 2 clothing, assuming it was going to work. I did find out about the hair issues though by mistake early on and realized that can be an issue too. The good thing is that I only recently been starting to buy male clothing and luckily it has all ben Gen 8. So I am going to stick with Gen 8 ONLY for the guys. But I don't do much work with the males as I prefer to work on the ladies. Heh Heh! I just thought I could expand my wardrobe as Gen s 2 & 3 have some pretty nice looking clothing items, especially for the fantasy genre. Oh well, C'est La Vie, I just have to stick with Gen 8 clothing and if I do use 2 or 3 clothing to just make sure the shoes are 'ground grabbers'.
In spite of any issues, G8 really is the most compatible generation so far. However, as a new user, it is probably a good idea to stick with a single generation for now. As your skills with Daz Studio improve, you'll reach a point where you'll be better able to use older generation content on the newer generations.
(There's nothing wrong with the older generation figures, and assets generally work really well on the generation they were designed for. I don't use V4/M4 very often, but I do use all generatons of Genesis, from time to time, depending on what outfit I really need. As long as it's not close up, I don't think it matters that much which generation I use, and fitting to the same generation is usually the fastest solution! lol)
That is what I got the gist of when reading about the backward compatibility of Gen 8. Perhaps I was expecting too much? Still It would have been nice to know some of these issues beforehand. As now I have (at least) four outfits with ornate high heeled boots that I wanted to use on my Gen 8 characters. So I am a bit disappointed. Granted, I would eventually like to create my own clothing, but I am far from that. I only recently learned about doing some texture redos on my own and also the clever trick of using the opacity control to create 'bare' areas on some outfits. So I AM learning. Do you create your own clothing for your figures?
I didn't think there was anything wrong with using the older Genesis figures, it is just that I don't have that many figures for them. I did get some items because there are many outfits, characters and accessories that were offered in both the Genesis 8 and 3 formats.
I, too, wonder what ARE the differences with the Genesis characters? For one, it does seem there is very little difference (first look wise) between Gens 2, 3 and 8. I can see some differences with Genesis though.
V4, the differences are more obvious. The faces look more 'cartoony' and overall they are less lifelike. I only have some V4 items because I got a bunch of V4 freebies a while back.
Yes, right now because it is current, Genesis 8 is the obvious way to go. It is what I started with.
Most don't create clothing since it is not an easy task, although Dforce has made it a little easier since it gives users another option that doesn't involve rigging. The modeling part is probaly the easiest part, the rigging is what can really be a pain.
As for differences between the generations, it usually comes down to the bones/rigging as to why clothing doesn't fit like it did on the generation it was designed for.. Connsidering DAZ is a business, I am actually very surprised (and grateful) that there is as much backwards compatibility as there is since it could/can take sales away.
I have heard that before about making clothing. I probably can see that with dresses, but I wouldn't go all out with a full flowing dress for a first try, but rather something more form fitting. Not sure if that makes a difference or not.
I don't want to make it sound like I am dissing Daz, but some kind of warning saying, "We strive to have made the Genesis 8 figure backward compatible with prior Genesis figures, however, there might be fitting issues with shoes and other accessories."
Something like that. As for sales...well, if the older outfits were 100% compatible with Gen 8, then I certainly would be interested in them. Heck, I spent hours going through the Artists links for the March Madness special just to see what was out there in terms of Gen 2 and 3 clothing and I have to say that out of the three Genesis figures, Genesis 3 seems to have the most offerings in terms of the outfits of my genre preference, which is fantasy. Granted perhaps asking for 100% backward capability might be asking too much. But it boils down to that I didn't know and I was just rather upleasantly surprised when I tried some Gen 3 outfits I just bought to find this shortcoming the hard way...after I bought it. BUT thankfully Daz does have the return policy and I probably will be asking for a refund on the outfits that have that problem.
I think most of us expect too much when we first get started with Daz Studio, or other 3D programs. How can you not, with such wonderful movies as Brave showing us what is possible? It's easy to forget that those movies use an army of 3D artists and high-end software. Brave, for example, actually had new software developed just to animate Merida's hair.
But it really is possible to do amazing things with Daz Studio. It's a robust program with a lot of features. The more you learn, the easier it is to continue to learn. As far as I've come in four and a half years, I'm pretty sure I use less than half of the capabilities. And that's not even considering the new features that will undoubtedly be added in the years to come.
I encourage people to just have fun with it, learn as you go, and create art that you enjoy. And try not to buy a lot of stuff when you're first getting started! LOL
I didn't mean to imply you thought there was anything wrong with other generations. However, I was recommending you stick with a single generation to begin with, and I didn't want to leave you with the impression there was something wrong with the others. Or that I thought there was something wrong with older generations.
Aside from each generation having characters that look different from the other generations, there are technical differences, mostly under the hood. Each successive generation bends better, for example, and G8 has a lot more face bones for creating expressions.
I do not create my own clothing for my figures, yet. I bought Marvelous Designer last November, but haven't had the time to really learn it yet. It's on my list of things to do this year.
I too work almost exclusively with G8 figures. Using items across generations can be frustrating and disappointing. It can also be fun, though! Especially if you get the older items for free or for very cheap. I was successful in converting the Desperado boots from G3 to G8 using the tutorial linked to above.
To expand further (was on the phone before)...
- hair generally has good compatibility. If it's shoulder length or longer you shouldn't use auto-fit. Fitting hair manually is simple and you can find tutorials about it.
- Garments that follow the body (Catsuits, relatively tight pants or tops) generally work well with auto-fit.
- Items that are supposed to be "hard" (such as armour) sometimes distorts awkwardly with auto-fit.
- Skirts, dresses, capes, and other flowy/drapy stuff doesn't work well with auto-fit. However, there's a chance that you can make it work with dForce. Furisode is a good example of an item that doesn't work with auto-fit at all, but drapes beautifully with dForce. (That being said, dForce can be tricky and a source of frustration all by itself.)
- Fit Control can help you tweak garments that fit "almost but not quite".
- There are many other products to increase compatibility, if you really want to get into it. Sickleyield and RiverSoft Art in particular sell many such products.
Good luck!
Auto-fitting capes is often not the best idea, simply parenting them to the target figure usually works better.
SY Ultra templates are very useful for skirts and dresses.
I actually started to free hand draw in 2016 and I am OK with pencil drawings. But naturally I wanted to do more work with computer art. I do have a Wacom Bamboo tablet and a couple drawing programs, but I quickly found out it is pretty difficult to draw that way. Many of my lines were very shaky and it looked like a child drew it! LOL. I had been playing around with character generation programs such as Azalea's Dolls, and Rinmaru. But those kind of felt 'kid like' and very limited. So I set out to find something like that, but with more options. Rinmaru on steroids, so to speak. It didn't take me too long to find Daz Studio and I have heard of it before, but I was under the impression it was a full art program like Blender or Maya. It wasn't until I read more about and a friend of mine over at Deviant Art explained it more to me that I realized it is more of a 3D Posing and animation program similar to Poser, but better. I did hear of Poser first, since the company that made that program, Smith Micro, made one of my art programs, Manga Studio. BUT a huge plus with Daz was that it was free. I could try it out right away. BUT I was warned ahead of time about spending and was told to "Be prepared to spend more money than you dreamed possible with Daz."
They were right about that. It does quickly become an expensive proposition. I already reached my year budget for Daz within the near three months I have it now. I did set out to make rules about certain items that I would NOT buy and that is poses and characters since I can do those myself. But while I was good with the former, the latter proved difficult in more ways than one. There were a few really pretty ladies I saw and wanted and bought them. Then there were those sale situations in that you HAD to buy something to get a deal on another thing. But for the most part, if it isn't out of a sale deal, I only outright buy a character if she has something that cannot be created easily or has a special skin.
But by and large, the largest 'sink hole' for me is clothing.
This was my initial plan, but then I started to see some of the really nice fantasy themed outfits that were for Genesis 3 and so I figured that since I was Genesis 8 and it was backward compatible, I would be good to go. But an early mistake had me question it. As you know some outfits and hair were meant for both Genesis 8 and 3 and they had presets for both. Well, one time I was setting hair and clicked on the wrong one and got some weird results. BUT that wasn't a problem, as I had the other preset, but it did make me wary of using Genesis 3 hair on Genesis 8. So I tried a Genesis 3 outfit and it worked, so I figured I had the 'gold key' to start looking for, buying and using Genesis 3 outfits. So there was big flash sale one night on Genesis 2 and 3 items, and I did buy quite a few things from that sale and I continued to put more in my wish list. The first few outfits I tried had low heels and they worked. But then when I tried out the high heeled outfits that was when I ran into the problem. I thought it was a fluke with a particular outfit, but then I tried others. After trying 7 outfits and four of the 7 had high heels and noted that only those were the ones that failed. So that was when I created this post. Naturally I didn't think there was something wrong with Genesis 3 or the clothing for the same clothing DID work fine when I tested it with, Ophelia, a Genesis 3 figure I bought because she doesn't have a Gen 8 counterpart. So I knew it was a compatibility issue with Genesis 8. And again, I am not pinning the blame on that figure or Daz in that aspect. I am pointing the finger at Daz for not making it more clear that there could be compatibililty issues. However, given that Daz does have a return policy I do have the option to return those outfits. But I did buy more in a more recent sale and I had to go through them. Luckily in that batch the Genesis 3 stuff I bought had all low shoes. Sadly, one of my favorite outfits I bought, is this one:
https://www.daz3d.com/downloader/customer/files/prod/20613/
I thought it was Genesis 3, but it is Genesis 2 and yes it has the problem. Sadly being Gen 2, there is no fix for this one. But I am going to keep this one as it really looks good on one of my Daz ladies (see attached)
As you see I got a bit creative with her footwear. I borrowed it from another outfit.
Oh yeah, I gathered that there is more going on under the surface as well. So it is mostly in the face then? But apparently it there must be some changes in how the feet are done if there are issues with using previous generation high heels on them.
Well, THAT was the main incentive. I often saw that many deals and sales seemed to favor the prior generation figure(s). There were mostly really good deep price cuts on Genesis, Gen 2 and Gen 3 items. While I have not heard much about the compatibility with Genesis and Gen 2, I heard time and time again that Genesis 3 is very close to Genesis 8 and even in forums I heard this mentioned a few times too. So didn't think much of it when I kept reading about the backward compatibiility of Gen 8 with prior Genesis characters. So I was a bit dismayed when I encountered this problem. Had I know ahead of time, I too would have stuck with Genesis 8. But yeah, you do have to get more creative and look at setting up the Gen 3 outfit with Gen 8 footwear that somewhat matches. So it does add to the interest of mixing and matching outfits, but when you buy an outfit that has these nice matching high heeled boots only to be disappointed that you don't get the full look when the shoes don't work on the figure.
I had a aproblem right off the bat trying to use, or should I say accidentally using a Genesis 3 hair on Genesis 8. So I was a bit wary about buying anything hair related that wasn't Genesis 8. For me that is not a big deal though. There does seem to be enough Gen 8 hair styles that can keep me occupied. But it is the clothing that I wanted to broaden my horizons with.
I am not sure what you mean by using and not using auto-fit. I was under the impression that auto-fit was something you couldn't turn off. So far the dresses that I did get, did seem to work, but for the most part they are not very long and flowing. But I have not tried really crazy poses with them either.
Most of the outfits are skimpier medieval style outfits and sci-fi / super hero outfits which are very tight fitting and yes, those work well.
I wasn't aware that dforce works outside of Genesis 8 products that are labeled as such. So a Genesis 3 flowing gown will work with dForce?
Fit Control does look promising, but at that price? I would definitely need a good deal on that before I would get it.
I will see if there is something that would do the trick that is also less expensive.
How does one go about non-auto-fitting an item? As I said before, I am not aware that not using Auto-Fit could be done.
Thanks for the info guys!
I didn't notice anyone mention this earlier in the thread (if it was mentioned, my apologies for not fully reading the thread), but I've had really good luck using the RSSY G3F to G8F clothing convertor for both cloths and shoes - I had great results even converting high heels, though they do usually require a little dial spinning of the included morphs (several versions available in RiverSoft Arts store). The cost of the plugin is easily recovered by being able to convert shoes alone.
A way to not use auto-fit, for example, would be to use a converter. Yes, more money to spend .
When it comes to hair or capes, you can load the item without having the G8 figure selected. Then you move the item manually into the right position (to the figures neck or head), then you use the "parent to" function. You should be able to find more detailed information by looking into how "parenting" works.
Older items are not made to work with dForce and many of hem don't. But then again, many do! So it's a matter of trial and error.
I too picked up Fit Control when there was a good deal on it. I would say this about pretty much every article in the store.
Hello!
I don't know why I didn't make the connection before when I saw those converter products from Riversoft. I could understand the need for one going from an incompatible format such as V4, but I just took it as a ploy or waste of money when I saw Gen 2 or 3 converters to Gen 8. Well, now I see why. At any rate, there is no way I am going to spend money on those unless it is a deep discount. So I will try the parenting trick first with what I have, but for the most part I am just going to avoid Gen 2 & 3 outfits with high heels. As for flowing dresses, I DID buy the Mayweather Multi Dress for Gen 2 & 3. I am not sure if that works with dForce. It would be nice if it did. I have use of the dress though, but for standing poses only. I have a couple of these types of multi dresses for Gen 8 already. I often do not use shoes when I se t these to long dresses. Even if I show some leg, I often just cut the feet off in the photo. In fact this is going to be my simple solution to those Gen 3 outfits i have with the heeled boot issues and until a good converter goes on sale.
THanks!
Geo
I didn't mention them since I had a terrible experience with them, The conversions were way worse (warped mesh, ill fitting) than using a normal clone and autofit and I ended up returning them. Some seem happy with the quality they produce, probably because of the convienance, but I wasn't. I did like that they add several adjustment type morphs, which are usually needed and I liked the batch conversion, but the quality just wasn't there for me. Don't even get me started on how bad my heels conversions were, LOL.
I think almost any kind of automated conversion will end up with some things that work well and some things that don't. A product like that has to accept compromise to "work" with every possibility.
Did you get try the G3 to G8 version specifically? I did not, as I know how to do the conversion manually, (and I'm a perfectionist!) But I am curious how well G3 > G8 and G8 < G3 worked with the two generations being so close to the same.
I bought the V4 to G8 one, the G2 to G8 one and the G3 hair to G8 one. I kept the hair one since it wasn't that far off to convert to G8 and the results were satisfactory
As you can see from the images, the conversion product is much more ill fitting than with the V4 clone fit. There was a user posting a ton of images with their conversions in the release thread and all had signs of warped mesh and loose fits. I asked why they were happy with those results and it came down to the convienance of converting their whole V4 wardrobe, which I can understand, but I can't get past the quality.
Really?? That is even worse than having the high heel boot issue in the first place. Well, good thing you mentioned it. I would have even been more disappointed to spend money on that and it doesn't work. Honestly, if they had one just for the high heels that actually worked, then I would naturally get that just to fix the shoe problem. As it is with most of the Genesis 2 and 3 stuff I selected, it was mostly tighter fitting items and not really too many long dresses. I guess mainly because I know that with long dresses I am better off sticking with Gen 8 because much of the long dresses for that is dForce compatible.
At the prices some of those converters cost, I would be expecting them to work at least to the 90% level or above.
Well, that is the proof right there and no, that isn't acceptable to me with the possible exception of what you said in your last sentence. I could see if one had a huge V4 or prior Genesis clothing collection and wanted to be able to use those on Genesis 8. But I started with Genesis 8 and have no prior library of clothing. I mainly only 'looked back' to see what was available. I wasn't too impressed with the V4 and Genesis collections and wrote them off right away. I also figured they would have compatibility issues. There were better offerings with Genesis 2, but I was most impressed with Genesis 3 as there are some outfits there that are not duplicated for Genesis 8 and in some cases the Genesis 3 outfits look cooler. Again, this is for my main genre, which is fantasy. But even with Sci-fi and Super Hero genre's, Genesis 3 has some pretty cool stuff.
I guess in a nutshell, I am just going to walk away from this as a learning experience. I probably will keep the outfits I already bought and use them. I did buy the Ophelia 7 bundle and she is Gen 3 since there is no Ophelia for Gen 8. So I could put the clothing on her as well as the two other Gen 3 characters she came with. I also kept the Gen 3 outfits in my wishlist that do not have high heels or very long flowing gowns. That stuff I removed and just stick with Genesis 8. For the Genesis 3 outfits that don't work with it, I guess I just will have to outfit the ladies with different (Gen 8) shoes.
On the bright side, at least I cut down the amount of items in my wish list!
Thank you all for your help.
Geo
One advantage of using the converters over auto-fit is you don't lose the morphs, which in some cases can go a long way towards making the converted clothing look good. It isn't really necessary for using G3 hair on G8, or vice-versa, though. Simply changing the Scene Identification is enough. But the converter does it as a batch, which can be a really big time saver, especially if you want the corresponding preset icons in Smart Content.
(For the new users, how to convert hair is included in the tutorial I mentioned earlier: [Tutorial] Convert Clothing G3 to G8, G8 to G3.)
Yeah, I change the scene ident all the time for each itme when I would load it. I figured the converter would speed up that process and it did for the hair at least, LOL
What I do when this happens is,
Hide the feet using the eye in the scene tab then turn off smoothing and hope there's not too much poke through elewhere, you can also turn off the shins. This usually works ok.
This is the Dark Storm Boots for G3F on a G8F base. After posing you nmay need to 0 out and toe or foot movements.
Relative to your question about turning autofit off, there are two ways, depending upon the circumstances. It is not really possible, as far as I am aware, to disable it permanently for everything, but you probably wouldn't want that anyway, since it does have its uses. Here's how to "turn it off" for a specific item:
If you have loaded an item into your scene (hair, clothing, etc.) with a figure selected, it will automatically try to autofit to that figure. If the item is not designed for that figure you will get the popup that has which figure it was designed for and what type of item it is. When it works, thats great, but when it doesn't, it can be a pain since autufit disables many of the fitting and adjustment morphs that the item may have come with. So, if that happens, select the item in your scene, open the Parameters tab and scroll down to the Fit To property, click on it and change the entry from "figure name" to none. The item may suddenly jump from the figure to its default loading position, so you will then need to translate it into position on the characters head and you will now have access to any fitting or posing/movement morphs that you wish to use to aid in fitting it manually, once fitted in this way, rember to parent it to the figures head so it will move with the figure when you change poses. Sounds a little complicated, but is actually quick and relatively easy.
If you are going to use an item that you know isn't going to work using autofit, you can avoid it be deselecting everything in your scene (i.e. nothing selected) and the new item (hair, etc.) will load by itself, circumventing autofit. Then proceed as above.
I have always wondered, why hasn't a Genesis shoe converter ever been created yet?
Or just hit the Cancel button if the Autofit dialog pops up.
I'm afraid, however, parenting a pair fo boots to the head isn't going to work the way you want it to…
That is an interesting way of doing things. Can you pose the shoe with the foot hidden like that or do you have to position the foot first and then 'remove it'? I have noticed that a fairly new outfit I bought actually butchers the feet by lopping the toes off! It nearly destroyed a character I was working on. It actually took me a while to figure out what was happening until I put the shoes on another character and it did the same thing.
I had noticed that when I put clothes on a figure forgot to select the character and it was pointing to an incompatible item that it would just appear at the bottom of the scene list and it was not parented to anything. From there I would manally tell the auto-fit to set it on the character. So at this point I can parent it to the character, or a part of the character?
I had noticed that sometimes the item would load and it would look in the right place at first, but then the auto-fit takes over and does that with the shoes.
That is interesting since they have hair converters. Why not a shoe converter? ...at least a good one that works.
Yes, I would think that would yeild some pretty interesting results.
Yes, they have hair converters and clothing converters. All we need now is a shoe converter.
For the most part if it is short shoes, or long dresses, I wouldn't make a big deal of it. I would just not use them and get a pair of Gen 8 shoes out of my wardrobe. With long dresses, I often just have my ladies barefoot..one thing less to worry about for rendering (if it even matters at all). In order to get most of the model in the shot, I often cut the feet off anyway. (Although I did get a complain on DA as to why I always cut the feet off. Apparently it was someone that has a foot fetish!) But mainly its those outfits that have the matching high heeled boots. Those are what I am complaining about, as the boots are really part of the overall look of the outfit. Case in point that Spanish Matador outfit I posted above. It has a nice pair of matching high heeled boots to go with it, but naturally it is one of the outfits that doesn't work. So I substituated the boots from this outfit:
https://www.daz3d.com/dforce-twilight-outfit-for-genesis-8-females
I found out too that the shoes from this outfit have a nasty issue too. They literally lop off the toes on your model! So if you are sitting there and trying out different outfits and put these shoes on your model and then decide not to use them, that is it. Your model is pretty much destroyed. I had to go back and save the outfit set up a morph setup, a wardrobe setup and materials setup, put in a new instance of a Gen 8 character and then put all those presets on to get my model back. Since that incident, I now create a 'base' model for all my characters. That base is never saved to...this way if something gets messed up, I still have the base character to fall back on.
The process that hides part of the geometry when a specific items it fit-to a figure is dependant on that item. If you delete the item, the mesh is restored. In the case above, when you decided to not to use the boots from the dForce Twilight Outfit, deleting the boots should have restored your character.
Well, sadly, restoring the character didn't happen when removing this pair of boots. I know as I tried two different characters and the shoes ruined them both. Both characters I am VERY fond of. Luckily I had backups and managed to save the settings for the characters and the clothing, so I was able to restore them back to their lovely beautiful selves. So I know if I use these shoes and then delete them, I am left with a destroyed character. I made a note of it in my Daz Notes folder, so I know that whatever character I put these on is saved and also not to take the shoes off unless I am not rendering the feet.
Thusfar though, this seems to be the only pair of shoes that does this. It is a shame though. However, the dress certainly can have other shoes with it since it is a long dress.