HDRI for Indoors

zombiewhacker

I gather that one quick and dirty way of lighting an indoor scene is to hide an off-camera wall and/or ceiling and use HDRI for illumination. In practice, does anyone recommend an HDRI from the DAZ store that is particularly good as masquerading as indoor light (for an apartment or office environment, for example)?

Or does it even matter?

marble

I use Painters Lights but for some unknown reason they have been removed from the store. There are some good ones from Paper Tiger (Rendo, sorry - not allowed to link), some of which come with a special X-Ray camera which can light through the walls.

Peter Wade

marble said:

I use Painters Lights but for some unknown reason they have been removed from the store. There are some good ones from Paper Tiger (Rendo, sorry - not allowed to link), some of which come with a special X-Ray camera which can light through the walls.

Does this light through the walls work in Iray? I thought that was impossible. If it can be done I would be very interested.

JayEl

Depending on your composition you can also pre-render your indoor background and then use that image as a background image for a render of a model that is not in an enclosed space so it gets the full HDRI effect. Just turn draw dome off.

Hylas

HDRI Haven has lots of indoor scenes, see if you can find one that matches the mood you're going for: https://hdrihaven.com/hdris/category/?c=indoor

And yes, it does matter if you have reflective surfaces.

marble

Peter Wade said:

marble said:

I use Painters Lights but for some unknown reason they have been removed from the store. There are some good ones from Paper Tiger (Rendo, sorry - not allowed to link), some of which come with a special X-Ray camera which can light through the walls.

Does this light through the walls work in Iray? I thought that was impossible. If it can be done I would be very interested.

Indeed it does (I also thought it was impossible).

Here's a render of a room with no light props, no camera headlight, nothing other than the external HDRI environment light (I used a light blue Painter's Light dome). The room is completely enclosed with the special XRay camera inside the room (so the "x-ray" refers to letting the light through walls, not the camera "seeing" through walls).

The render took 2 minutes, by the way, and it was 1200x960 original size.

vwrangler

Peter Wade said:

marble said:

I use Painters Lights but for some unknown reason they have been removed from the store. There are some good ones from Paper Tiger (Rendo, sorry - not allowed to link), some of which come with a special X-Ray camera which can light through the walls.

Does this light through the walls work in Iray? I thought that was impossible. If it can be done I would be very interested.

It almost certainly uses what's called an Iray Section Plane (in the Create menu in Studio, I think). Basically, a section plane just tells Iray, "Pretend this wall (or other 'solid' geometry) isn't there." It comes into the scene parallel to the ground, and then you have to use the parameters to move it into position.Can be tricky, because you can't see the section plane; what I've heard some people do is they create the section plane, create a plane primitive, parent that to the section plane while it's still on the "floor", then move the section plane around -- you can see the primitive, which occupies somewhat the same space as the section plane. When it's in position, use the eyeball to turn off the primitive in the Scene tab so that it doesn't render.

I suspect that the X-Ray cameras have a section plane parented to them.

marble

vwrangler said:

Peter Wade said:

marble said:

I use Painters Lights but for some unknown reason they have been removed from the store. There are some good ones from Paper Tiger (Rendo, sorry - not allowed to link), some of which come with a special X-Ray camera which can light through the walls.

Does this light through the walls work in Iray? I thought that was impossible. If it can be done I would be very interested.

It almost certainly uses what's called an Iray Section Plane (in the Create menu in Studio, I think). Basically, a section plane just tells Iray, "Pretend this wall (or other 'solid' geometry) isn't there." It comes into the scene parallel to the ground, and then you have to use the parameters to move it into position.Can be tricky, because you can't see the section plane; what I've heard some people do is they create the section plane, create a plane primitive, parent that to the section plane while it's still on the "floor", then move the section plane around -- you can see the primitive, which occupies somewhat the same space as the section plane. When it's in position, use the eyeball to turn off the primitive in the Scene tab so that it doesn't render.

I suspect that the X-Ray cameras have a section plane parented to them.

I don't think so. The IRay section pane clips the solid surfaces (at least it does when I use it) so any mesh object on one side of the plane is made invisible in the render (walls disappear, etc.). With this X-Ray camera, the walls stay visible (all of them) and the light comes though them uniformly. Perhaps there is a way to make the Section Node allow the objects to stay visible while allowing the light through - I don't know. But it still sections off a portion of the scene whereas, from what I can see, the X-Ray camera does not.

Try it and see, the special camera comes with several of the Paper Tiger sets and they don't cost much.

Kevin Sanderson

marble, thanks for posting this! X-Ray camera results look good. I just ordered 3 of the Paper Tiger HDRI sets.

Leonides02

I have all the Paper Tiger HDRI sets (they're great) but I didn't understand the capabilities of the X-Ray camera. Gotta give this a try!

Toonces

marble said:

vwrangler said:

Peter Wade said:

marble said:

I use Painters Lights but for some unknown reason they have been removed from the store. There are some good ones from Paper Tiger (Rendo, sorry - not allowed to link), some of which come with a special X-Ray camera which can light through the walls.

Does this light through the walls work in Iray? I thought that was impossible. If it can be done I would be very interested.

It almost certainly uses what's called an Iray Section Plane (in the Create menu in Studio, I think). Basically, a section plane just tells Iray, "Pretend this wall (or other 'solid' geometry) isn't there." It comes into the scene parallel to the ground, and then you have to use the parameters to move it into position.Can be tricky, because you can't see the section plane; what I've heard some people do is they create the section plane, create a plane primitive, parent that to the section plane while it's still on the "floor", then move the section plane around -- you can see the primitive, which occupies somewhat the same space as the section plane. When it's in position, use the eyeball to turn off the primitive in the Scene tab so that it doesn't render.

I suspect that the X-Ray cameras have a section plane parented to them.

I don't think so. The IRay section pane clips the solid surfaces (at least it does when I use it) so any mesh object on one side of the plane is made invisible in the render (walls disappear, etc.). With this X-Ray camera, the walls stay visible (all of them) and the light comes though them uniformly. Perhaps there is a way to make the Section Node allow the objects to stay visible while allowing the light through - I don't know. But it still sections off a portion of the scene whereas, from what I can see, the X-Ray camera does not.

Try it and see, the special camera comes with several of the Paper Tiger sets and they don't cost much.

I'm not sure how it would accomplish this. If you set the draw style to Iray and switch from the camera to perspective, then 'look' at the camera, I imagine the section plane would be there making the wall invisible. You just don't notice it looking thru the camera since it's parented to the camera and rotates as you rotate the camera.

Otherwise, how would it let light pass thru 'walls'? How would it distinguish between walls and any other mesh object? How would it know to let the light thru a wall (with no shadow from wall) but let light get blocked by a teddy bear thus creating a shadow (unless it somehow searched for all objects in the scene with 'wall' in name which would be flawed.

I'm tempted to purchase just because a section plane parented to a camera is a cool idea, but if that's not how it's accomplishing it, I'll be amazed.

marble

Toonces said:

marble said:

vwrangler said:

Peter Wade said:

marble said:

I use Painters Lights but for some unknown reason they have been removed from the store. There are some good ones from Paper Tiger (Rendo, sorry - not allowed to link), some of which come with a special X-Ray camera which can light through the walls.

Does this light through the walls work in Iray? I thought that was impossible. If it can be done I would be very interested.

It almost certainly uses what's called an Iray Section Plane (in the Create menu in Studio, I think). Basically, a section plane just tells Iray, "Pretend this wall (or other 'solid' geometry) isn't there." It comes into the scene parallel to the ground, and then you have to use the parameters to move it into position.Can be tricky, because you can't see the section plane; what I've heard some people do is they create the section plane, create a plane primitive, parent that to the section plane while it's still on the "floor", then move the section plane around -- you can see the primitive, which occupies somewhat the same space as the section plane. When it's in position, use the eyeball to turn off the primitive in the Scene tab so that it doesn't render.

I suspect that the X-Ray cameras have a section plane parented to them.

I don't think so. The IRay section pane clips the solid surfaces (at least it does when I use it) so any mesh object on one side of the plane is made invisible in the render (walls disappear, etc.). With this X-Ray camera, the walls stay visible (all of them) and the light comes though them uniformly. Perhaps there is a way to make the Section Node allow the objects to stay visible while allowing the light through - I don't know. But it still sections off a portion of the scene whereas, from what I can see, the X-Ray camera does not.

Try it and see, the special camera comes with several of the Paper Tiger sets and they don't cost much.

I'm not sure how it would accomplish this. If you set the draw style to Iray and switch from the camera to perspective, then 'look' at the camera, I imagine the section plane would be there making the wall invisible. You just don't notice it looking thru the camera since it's parented to the camera and rotates as you rotate the camera.

Otherwise, how would it let light pass thru 'walls'? How would it distinguish between walls and any other mesh object? How would it know to let the light thru a wall (with no shadow from wall) but let light get blocked by a teddy bear thus creating a shadow (unless it somehow searched for all objects in the scene with 'wall' in name which would be flawed.

I'm tempted to purchase just because a section plane parented to a camera is a cool idea, but if that's not how it's accomplishing it, I'll be amazed.

All I can say is give it a try. When I looked earlier they were on sale so it isn't a big risk and the light presets are pretty good value anyway. I was also convinced that it must be using a Section Pane but I don't see one, nor do I have a clue as to how it works.

zombiewhacker

Thanks for the links.

RE: HDRI haven, do they integrate seamlessly with IBL Master? Also, what size do I need? (1K, 4K, etc.)

Sven Dullah

It's kind of funny:) IRay was introduced in 2015, right? So...five years (and probably a couple of GPUs) later, there are now products available to make it it possible to render stuff that looks just like UE2 ambient occlusion with the standard 3DL renderer.

Well to each their own, I guess...

Hiro Protagonist

Toonces said:

I'm not sure how it would accomplish this. If you set the draw style to Iray and switch from the camera to perspective, then 'look' at the camera, I imagine the section plane would be there making the wall invisible. You just don't notice it looking thru the camera since it's parented to the camera and rotates as you rotate the camera.

Otherwise, how would it let light pass thru 'walls'? How would it distinguish between walls and any other mesh object? How would it know to let the light thru a wall (with no shadow from wall) but let light get blocked by a teddy bear thus creating a shadow (unless it somehow searched for all objects in the scene with 'wall' in name which would be flawed.

I'm tempted to purchase just because a section plane parented to a camera is a cool idea, but if that's not how it's accomplishing it, I'll be amazed.

I absolutely agree that there is no apparent logical way that this could work. I read a blog post on this subject which mentions Paper Tiger's product, which gives the impression that the writer has the product. They say it consists of 5 section planes parented to a camera (top, bottom, left, right and back), and goes on to say that you can make one yourself (which I have done, and I do use it occasionally). As.expected, geometry on the outside of the planes is invisible in the render rather than being visible and magically able to let through Iray's "light rays". A handy thing with it is that you can hide one of more of the planes to get different lighting effects.

The blog is here (need to scroll down to "iRay Section Planes").

 

Toonces

Ah, so it does use section planes. Still brilliant idea to parent 5 of them to the camera.

I've always used section planes manually, so this will save me a lot of time.

Toonces

I bought it for the cam. He even has the section planes labeled so you can hide lighting from a certain direction if you want. (Note: you only 'see' the planes in the scene node list if you expand the camera dropdown).

Thanks for the suggestion marble! I'll be using this for most indoor renders from now on.

Novica

@toonces  I sure hope you used the additional 20% off code for all members- found under Deals. Paper Tiger's products have the green coupon on almost all of them. 

Toonces

Haha, I always have trouble finding those coupons.

Turns out this one requires a minimum purchase of $10 tho, and it was only $7.

Novica

Toonces said:

Haha, I always have trouble finding those coupons.

Turns out this one requires a minimum purchase of $10 tho, and it was only $7.

With the 20% off, it was worth my while to go over the $10. I already own a couple of them, but I added a second one I didn't have (that was on sale) so I really scored! 

Always just click Deals  :) 

Hylas

Re "X-Ray Cameras": I suppose that means reflective objects in the scene will reflect the HDRI (and possibly a truncated version of the room) rather than the room itself?

marble

Toonces said:

I bought it for the cam. He even has the section planes labeled so you can hide lighting from a certain direction if you want. (Note: you only 'see' the planes in the scene node list if you expand the camera dropdown).

Thanks for the suggestion marble! I'll be using this for most indoor renders from now on.

Well, damn, I didn't expand the camera in the hierarchy tree so never noticed the section planes. Well, it makes sense now but it is very clever the way it is implemented because whatever is in the camera view remains visible  

Hiro Protagonist

Hylas said:

Re "X-Ray Cameras": I suppose that means reflective objects in the scene will reflect the HDRI (and possibly a truncated version of the room) rather than the room itself?

Yes. It's quite possible that, say, a mirror, will show the sliced off walls, etc. and chrome-like surfaces reflect blue sky and green grass. I do all my interior scenes with IBL and have to be careful about this. If necessary I take steps like desaturating inappropriately coloured reflections so that they look suitably vague. This sort of lighting is generally not going to look too realistic as the direction and intensity of the IBL light sources won't make sense for an interior-lit scene. It's a bit like theatre stage or TV studio-set lighting, but I can accept that for my style of work which is quite "stagey" anyway.

Toonces

Hiro Protagonist said:

Hylas said:

Re "X-Ray Cameras": I suppose that means reflective objects in the scene will reflect the HDRI (and possibly a truncated version of the room) rather than the room itself?

Yes. It's quite possible that, say, a mirror, will show the sliced off walls, etc. and chrome-like surfaces reflect blue sky and green grass. I do all my interior scenes with IBL and have to be careful about this. If necessary I take steps like desaturating inappropriately coloured reflections so that they look suitably vague. This sort of lighting is generally not going to look too realistic as the direction and intensity of the IBL light sources won't make sense for an interior-lit scene. It's a bit like theatre stage or TV studio-set lighting, but I can accept that for my style of work which is quite "stagey" anyway.

As long as there are no mirrors or windows in the image, I don't think lighting follows the same rules as 'uncanny valley' (i.e., where the viewer subconsious picks up on things that are not-quite-right about an image, negatively impacting impressions).

I think you could create a comic where the shadows flipped from one direction to another, and as long as it was on different pages, no one would notice.

I think you could use external lighting HDRI for room interior, reduce intensity to a reasonable level, and no one would know or see anything amiss.

I think the only time people notice lighting is when it's too dark for them to see what's happening (e.g., game of thrones season 8 episode 3), or too bright, or flat (no shadows)...all of which are easy to avoid with HDRIs.

Of course these are just my opinions and may depend on render purpose. If the purpose is to tell a story (short as it may be), then I think they hold true. The reader will focus on story first.

If the purpose is to render a pin-up model in 'stunning' way, then, perhaps, lighting nuances become more important (an HDRI wont give you that professional rim outline around the character)...so I'll make that concession.

 

marble

Toonces said:

Hiro Protagonist said:

Hylas said:

Re "X-Ray Cameras": I suppose that means reflective objects in the scene will reflect the HDRI (and possibly a truncated version of the room) rather than the room itself?

Yes. It's quite possible that, say, a mirror, will show the sliced off walls, etc. and chrome-like surfaces reflect blue sky and green grass. I do all my interior scenes with IBL and have to be careful about this. If necessary I take steps like desaturating inappropriately coloured reflections so that they look suitably vague. This sort of lighting is generally not going to look too realistic as the direction and intensity of the IBL light sources won't make sense for an interior-lit scene. It's a bit like theatre stage or TV studio-set lighting, but I can accept that for my style of work which is quite "stagey" anyway.

As long as there are no mirrors or windows in the image, I don't think lighting follows the same rules as 'uncanny valley' (i.e., where the viewer subconsious picks up on things that are not-quite-right about an image, negatively impacting impressions).

I think you could create a comic where the shadows flipped from one direction to another, and as long as it was on different pages, no one would notice.

I think you could use external lighting HDRI for room interior, reduce intensity to a reasonable level, and no one would know or see anything amiss.

I think the only time people notice lighting is when it's too dark for them to see what's happening (e.g., game of thrones season 8 episode 3), or too bright, or flat (no shadows)...all of which are easy to avoid with HDRIs.

Of course these are just my opinions and may depend on render purpose. If the purpose is to tell a story (short as it may be), then I think they hold true. The reader will focus on story first.

If the purpose is to render a pin-up model in 'stunning' way, then, perhaps, lighting nuances become more important (an HDRI wont give you that professional rim outline around the character)...so I'll make that concession.

 

Agree entirely. I light the scene for best viewing, not for consistency of shadows, etc. So I have a spotlight illuminating one side of the person and then render from the opposite side and move the spotlight across accordingly. It is more difficult with HDRIs because the light direction depends on the rotation of the dome and to see that you need to have IRay preview on, which is a no-no for my slow computer. My viewport lags in ordinary texture mode so IRay preview just doesn't work for me.

Peter Wade

I bought one of the sets to try out the X-Ray camera and I really like it. It will make lighting interior scenes a lot easier. And the lights are very good too. I think I'll go back and buy some more. Thank you, marble, for telling us about this.

 

zombiewhacker

Again, though, regarding my earlier question, will HDRI Haven lights play nicely with DAZ's IBL Master?

Also several size HDRIs are offered at Haven. What size would be required for a 3Delight render in the 2000x2000 range?  IK? 4K?

Fishtales

I turn the ceiling into an Emissive for indoor ambient light.

Find the Ceiling in the Surface tab.

Go to Emissive and use the Ceiling diffuse image to map the light and make the colour White.

Go to the Temperature and set it for the light bulbs used. Anything from 2750 to 6500 even lower for candles or higher for Tungsten Halogen.

Set the Luminance Units to cd/cm2 and play with the Luminance to get the amount of ambient light you need. I use anything from 0.1 to 1500 and above.

That was how I did this one https://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/comment/2755886/#Comment_2755886

You can still use any extra lights for fill lights in any area that needs it.

Sven Dullah

zombiewhacker said:

Again, though, regarding my earlier question, will HDRI Haven lights play nicely with DAZ's IBL Master?

Sure they will!

zombiewhacker said:

Also several size HDRIs are offered at Haven. What size would be required for a 3Delight render in the 2000x2000 range?  IK? 4K?

IMO 8k is minimum if you use it as a backdrop. You might get away with 4k in 3DL if you use the DoF to blur it. If you only use the HDRI for lighting the size doesn't matter really.

zombiewhacker

Thanks for the advice. Looks like I'm off to HDRI Haven!

plasma_ring

marble said:

I use Painters Lights but for some unknown reason they have been removed from the store. There are some good ones from Paper Tiger (Rendo, sorry - not allowed to link), some of which come with a special X-Ray camera which can light through the walls.

Thank you for this rec and for the discussion in this thread! This is life changing for me because I'm not after realistic lighting and it's very hard to get the same controlled, dramatic results from interior lighting that I can with image-based lighting. I've spent a lot of time strategically removing walls and ceilings, which isn't always possible and ends up requiring some weird camera angles. It made me avoid interior shots because they just weren't fun to set up, so I didn't get much practice with them. I'm definitely practicing now!

One of the cool things is that if you can use Iray preview, it basically turns your interior prop into a stage. I've been using the x-ray camera to set placement of the section planes and then one of InaneGlory's cinematic cameras for the actual render.

You can also make more than one "cut"--in this render there's an x-ray camera in front and then another on the other side of the tube to shear off the end after the curve.