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Sorry if it makes you feel old - it does me a bit! - but unreal Engine 2 came out around 2001/2002. Things have moved on; I am a little hazy on the technical details because I have only ever tinkered until recently; but in the video I posted above the Daz character with hair and clothes imported with around 211,000 polygons. The 2013 version of Lara Croft is said to be around 41,000 (depending on what weapons she is carrying) - compared with a model of around 230 from the original. Sounds like the roman guy from ryse is about 85k polygons, (a dev version on a pc allegedly runs fine with him at 150k but they had to bring it down for the xbox launch date) and some people claim that a character from Ninja Gaiden 3, and Cars from some racing game to be around 100,000 but that's just hearsay. (There was talk around uncharted 4 that had the developers working with 1,000,000 polygon models, but I think we will have to wait and see to find out if those see the light of day any time soon.)
I'm not saying I am aiming for my games to be that high profile, but just so we are working from the same page as per what is possible. (besides my crazy ambitions are my problem not the PAs from the store ;) )
Do you feel 41k polygons is high enough to do characters justice? One thing those games have in common is being action games which does mean low poly is more important, but will also disguise it better as the characters will be moving quicker. I think a game that is more slowly paced could handle higher poly characters, just depends on the gameplay.
Building the models from scratch will always do a better job. Agreed but only in a hypothetical world where I am better than you at modelling which I am not; or can hire someone like you to create things for me, which I will take a punt would cost a lot more than the models are for sale on here for.
Also if we are going for hypothetical examples you can say that making models from scratch for any project will always produce better results; because you can make it exactly how you want, no compromises to what model of classic car are in the store, or what someone else thinks an Ogres nose looks like, but it doesn't look like the store is going away any time soon :)
The main reason I'm reluctant to have a game license is that it could give the impression that my products are game-ready as they are, and they're not. I make things higher-poly than I would if they were for games, I like rounded parts to look round even up close. A little extra render time is no big deal in Poser or DS but can be fatal to a game. Then again, I don't have Decimator and I'm not sure what it can do.
I've seen several videos of animated Vicky4s in game engines but it's always a very basic-looking V4 doing simple animations on a plain backdrop. It would be different to have a V4 that looked like a game character running through an actual game level carrying weapons and fragging enemies left and right. Maybe it's possible but I haven't seen it.
For now I remain open to it but unconvinced. I could raise the possibility with DAZ and see what they think. Don't worry about making me feel old, I'll hit the half-century mark soon. :coolsmile:
Au contraire mon ami. Just like 2d artists, game creators want to maintain access to the original geometry high detail source mesh. Game Developers also develop High Def model and then retopo them for the appropriate LOD if necessary. Unlike 2D renders, you may need multiple LOD's in a single game, and certainly in different types of game generes to suit different situations and perspectives. Raw Art does nothing special, yet I was able to easily use his figures in my games.
( Examples of various Genesis and V6 conversions in WebGL Browser based games) Petipets vehicles are also great game figures and can be decimated 90% and still be a decent representation of the original craft. With the magic of FBX animation in game you can make speedometer needles move and wheels turn. (See here)
Figures in these webgl games have been decimated to approx 6-8000 triangles. Its because the scene is expansive. I also seen WebGL performance double in browsers over the last year, and now its supported native by all major browsers, even on Android's chrome browser. Furthermore Adobe FLASH is now moving towards a wrapper/API for HTML 5 making real-time 3d publishing on the web easier than ever.
I am not saying I make the best games with DAZ models - that takes a a highly experienced and talented game developer. What I am saying that DAZ figures are so diverse and creative they serve as great inspirational starting points and also serve as a prop & character design library that Game developers can draw from (and convert to their use). It takes immense creativity and skill to create a great game, however technologies like Torque, Unity & Unreal 3d new pricing schemes and simplified GUI's and object oriented technologies put "AAA" game engine within the realistc reach of many lesser experienced yet creative consumers.
Like RealLusion's IClone 3d Pipeline Exchange is doing in cooperation with DAZ Genesis, DAZ Studio 4.6 and Decimator and its game license program also offers a viable path into 3d game publishing. RealLusions approach is great for people who need a quick source for animations and 3d characters on demand. Its great system, but there are more limitations on the rigs and there is extra cost for the added convenience. However more resourceful game developers may find the broad range of highly detailed DAZ models and figures more appealing. But they are willing to learn how and hammer out a working pipeline for their game engine, its more cost friendly, especially if your a PC member. .
Multi publishing technologies like Construct2 (2D), Babylon, Goo, Flare3d, OUYA (Open Console game dev platform) and Ambiera's "CopperCube" 3d engine make if fun and rewarding for the amateur (like me) and you can easily publish on multiple platforms. Its incremental development and experience that that will build our skills so we can be even more capable on future projects and even contribute to the body of 3d content available. That's how I got stated anyways.
Due to the expansive and diverse nature of Nightshift3d products, your props and figures are really well suited games. I highly encourage you to offer a game publishing license upgrade. PA's who market and list prices of their assets for game publishing will gain much more game developer business because the resources can be identified and budgeted in the planning stage. Game design is often dynamic and ff outsourced alternatives are readily available, they can be positioned as primary or contingency and in house 3d creators can focus on detail and the unique aspects of the game environment.
PA's seeking feedback and guidance the topic of what Game Developers want. might want to engage the GAMDEV.net forums, too.
I have been wondering for a while why Predaton does not promote his perfectly suited LoREZ figures for games.
Maybe he does. Since this community is not aimed at game design and development, maybe he sells elsewhere or straight to studios.
Woohoo!
Looks like we have some movement on this, bit disappointed we didn't get more PA responses, but I guess I couldn't expect my first post to get attention from all the big hitters around here :)
I think there is nothing for it but to buy some daz's own stuff and prove or disprove how well it works to people in the hope of kindling some interest.
I'm not a PA, but a $1000 investment into a very small market doesn't seem intelligent to me. I' frequent the commons -a lot- and I've been maybe 10 posts about using models in video games. The majority of them sounding non-committal at best. Wanting to put their own figure in their homebrew game or using DS figures in Second Life. Stuff like that.
Certainly not a market I'd invest in.
Thanks for the reply, but I am missing something, what is the $1000 investment you mention?
Not sure what to make of that assessment. The forum is just a bit more than a year old and when I search "game license" I get lots of relevent hits. I have seen the topic brought up lots of times. Not sure what the concern is how people want to employ the licensed figures, other than its some sort of real time 3d engine. Most will probably want to make 3d story books, webgl scenes for blogs and mabe even a hobby game or such. 3d greeting cards... but - So what ? - All these and the used you mention are worthy uses and not viable under the default term. Other content sites include 3d publishing in the EULA and it will its a benifit to all because it adds real value and "future proofs" to the purchased content license with additional flexibility.
Just as long users don't steal from the developers by pirating, exchanging or distributing the content items they bought, expanding publishing privilege really just broadens the demand, visibility and ultimately sales potential without of products without significant added expense. Ok maybe some additional risk to piracy as pointed out before - but no more than any other software developer incurs with their product and its proven time and time again that exposure encourages legitimate sales at a faster rate than illegitimate ones and solidifies a foundation of loyal support.
No problem, the quote below is where I got my $1000 value:
I have zero concern with what people do with it. I'm saying that if I were a PA I would not buy the game license, and the other license Frank mentioned because I do not think the return would be there, based on the demographics I've seen. Piracy issues aside, the times I have observed people wanting to use DS figures where a game license would be needed have been the "one and done" kind. There would be very few return customers.
Perhaps I'm missing the point of the conversation, though.
valid point, I doubt the PA has to purchase any license, it's the customer. I wonder how many of those that post in the forums about using DAZ assets in their game, have any intention of purchasing a license.
I can see that there is a small demand here at DAZ for game use assets, but I wonder about how they could capitalize on it, while still keeping their copyright intact and combating piracy.
There we go, the confusion is clear now! I was under the impression a PA purchased the license and then sold their figures to those who wanted to use them in a game. I didn't realize that the game maker needed to buy the license. That renders all of my previous posts to be simple rambling of an ignorant man. Please ignore them xD
I've never really thought about piracy as an issue, is there even a big enough demand for there to warrant piracy? I thought people only pirated movies, music and porn. I was under the impression that, in general, piracy is done via torrent and that you need a large group of people to make it actually work.
The point I'm trying to make is that I don't think piracy is that big of an issue, is it? Obviously it's stealing and that's a loss of revenue for a PA, but artist to artist I wouldn't expect more than like 5 out of every 1000 copies being illegitimate. I'm on the consumer end of the 3D stuff, though. Maybe it's a bigger problem that I realize.
to those that create, it is a huge issue, to those that don't, they mostly worry about being inconvenienced due to licenses and DRM.
I guess I should have realized it'd be an issue since it's purely digital. I just thought of a few methods to inhibit piracy, mostly stuff like authentication and serial keys, but if I think about it, the first time something went wrong for me it'd be annoying.
I would think something that would be fairly robust for the user and potentially stop people from stealing would be just a simple text file that's some sort of encryption of something like -. When you buy a new product a new file could be regenerated and every time DS opens it just checks the list for the encryption. Offline is no problem since the file is local, and the online portion wouldn't be a bother either because you already need to be online to buy stuff. Maybe that's a little too intrusive, though. It would also not help with the other content sites.
Interesting issue.
It is a sad fact that we can't stop piracy, and some people even pirate things that are free! And no offence to daz but if the movie & music industry and ubisoft, EA etc can't stop it then I doubt Daz could. :(
But I remain unconvinced that someone stealing a lower poly version of a game optimised model from a game will affect sales of the full thing on the Daz store. Which is likely already on torrents anyway.
It is frustrating because it feels like letting the criminals win.
One of the game communities i design for has lots of payware addons, averaging around $30-$40 a pop and there are so many different ways at combating piracy, some heavy handed and hoop laden, others much simpler, but none seem to really work. What seems to be the best scenario is limiting access to patches, files and support forums to actual customers since pirates tend to be normal community members. My last 4 projects i worked on, ended up on the torrent sites within 5 days of release, it's extremely frustrating and I have 2 very talented friends that moved on to other communities, hobbies because of it.
Then there is the problem of taking mesh and using it for other items, other uses, other game engines. With most apps being able to import/export many of the same file types, it's really easy to make any mesh work in almost any renderer, game engine. Luckily rigging is still semi app dependent, especially DS/poser rigging.
On the topic of Models in the daz store being too high res, for games, does this on the unity game engine's asset store do anything to change your mind?
<link redacted>
New York city block ~2M polygons
Well if piracy is really that big of an issue and so impossible to stop, why not stop focusing on the pirates and focusing on those who pay. I know ideally you'd just stop them but, from what I've been hearing, that's not an option. It's a little hard (and weird) to think of a way to "reward" purchasers, when the purchased item itself should be the "reward." I do think that the solution would lie more in the "reward the good" method than "punish the bad."
That's a static. Try animating 2M polys. I'd bet my left-arm that in animations the renderer can tell what is moving and what isn't and just regenerate shadows when needed instead of re-rendering the whole thing
I feel for you and your friends, :( it is sad, but given your greater level of experience do you believe that sellers on here would be better or worse off also selling assets for game use?
two points: Re the current game license offerings for Daz Originals and RawArt are blanket" in that they encompass large product lines consisting of hundreds perhaps of assets for the game developer providing many many project opportunities to leverage the out of pocket investment. That said, other vendors include this in their 3d content offerings for no more than 2d.
It was a good point, if pirating wares are replicated from source ripped from games, rather from original store packages, the rig are mesh are not original. No game engine used DAZ tri-axis or Poser parametric rigs, Its always restructured and vertices reassigned from the groupings or bhv rig, first perhaps by decimate, again by FBX and once again to a .x (or what have you) into the game engine. Only loose approximations vertices boundaries/keyframes and textures are retained. Same applies to genesis form. I wont argue that the loose approximations were derived from an artists intellectual property - they do and should be therefore considered under the associated EULA.
However to be concerned as a PA how a RIG may get applied down the pipeline is kind of focusing on a rather insubstantial issue while overlooking the larger concern, especially one ripped from a 3d game engine. The white elephant is how you identify and get PAID for unlicensed assets in published works. Just like bill collectors there are services that would probably like assist with this, for a share of the action. If someone bothered to use a pirated, low poly asset for non commercial purposes - you probably are not loosing a sale anyways and only gaining (perhaps unwanted) publicity if its render is shown publicly. Of course if you find that link on a blog-site and add a comment showing how users can buy teh real deal here in the DAZ store, you win where there was no prior opportunity. Need to outfox the wolves.
That's a static. Try animating 2M polys. I'd bet my left-arm that in animations the renderer can tell what is moving and what isn't and just regenerate shadows when needed instead of re-rendering the whole thing
Animating 2M polys? No problem. At this moment I am rendering 33M+ polygons (33,022,582 to be precise - Yikes)! in an animation consisting of a dense forest in surrounding a glimmering pond with gators. 10 second, 360 degree cyclic animation rendered in 6 camera shots. Power of Vue. How about Messiah3d where a $200 render engine will animate a fully particularized volumetric environment - like digging sand tunnels in a beach or spreading frosting on a cake.... clever engine - it blows me away. I think it uses quantum 3d computing or such :coolcheese:
if DAZ ever got to a point where it had a robust game assets division AND i knew they were serious about protecting their assets (i say this because I see DAZ assets on so many sites outside of DAZ), I would love to see it happen and even contribute. Problem that stands now, is beginning game developers don't want/can't afford to go the correct route and buy assets specifically for game use as the prices are geared for studios with larger budgets so they stumble on DAZ, see the great content and the low prices and then want to use DAZ assets.
I think DAZ should start a game asset section, lower the game license price and up the cost of the game specific models to market standards. I tend to think this would also bring more PAs to producing game content since it would make it more worth their while, but only is wannabe game developers actually buy from this game specific store.
Non creators talk about losing sales and that pirates wouldn't even ever buy your product, blah, blah, blah. For many creators, that isn't the issue as much as it is someone just stealing your hard work and even the fairness of it. As an independent modeler and not a studio employed modeler, it's hard to protect your hard work these days and the last thing you want to do is spend all your time worrying about how to do that when you just want to create.
I view your quote above as not outfoxing the wolves, but leading them to the buffet, whats the old saying about a leopard and it's spots.
>> I view your quote above as not outfoxing the wolves, but leading them to the buffet, whats the old saying about a leopard and it’s spots. << <br /> he he... counter that with "Risk Nothing, Gain Nothing" or "No Guts No Glory", or "Nothing ventured, bothing gained" Make the desert at the buffet suspense for your next release. Heck yeah lead them to the buffet - your next release and from your store. Maybe put a "easter egg" in the content that identifies, prompts or even promotes your store. Entrapment nah, just en$nare tmem and convert to devoted, proud to be paying clients them like id did with the kids back in the 80's with Doom.
Continuing I think the most successful are the ones who have created a unique identity and recognizable branding for their products. I'n not talking about logos, I referring to unique attributes of the product lines. Most regulars here don't need to look up the vendor when a new Jack, Stonemason, Petipet or AntFarm product is released - you recognize the lines immediately. As with other highly poplar producers, many people are attracted and want to be associated and want to show off their support. Sure some people try to get away with rip-offs, but not most why so not even want to peel off packaging and branding labels. Think official endorsed products like ball caps and concert t-shirts and those shiny metallic stickers. That's a marketable asset that cant be stolen on something that can easily be copied. So can the lable but why isnt it? Because it would defeat the point! People want to show how there being an environmentalist by showing off a green label on the latest car, not because its cheaper or cleaner for than the environment otherwise they would walk...
So... as a fellow inventor & product developer I also have the same challenge - I prefer to go exploratory and grow to compete rather than isolationist and protectionist in my business approach. Someone wants to try to build my tool for themselves, I say have at it. They probably can't make it cheaper and it only helps spread the concept. I'll even offer plans. But try to copy & sell it and I'll be after you like a bee after pollen. Contingent fee patent infringement litigation lawyers ARE HUNGRY. It may be even prove lucrative if pirates are actually successful in commercially marketing the copy.
my main reasons for not being a part of the game licensing are quality control and pricing,on the one hand I see little reason to not be a part of licensing for game use,if people want to buy the stuff for a game then it 'should' be fine.
but there's still something keeping me away from it,not even really sure what it is but I just don't feel comfortable selling content under the game license,and there is only a very small handful of people that are interested in it that it seems better to just not open that can of worms.
for quite a few years I was hassling DAZ that they needed to start targeting game developers,bring in some of the artists from ZCentral and Polycount forums who specialize in making high end games content..but very quickly realized what I was wanting and what we got were two very different things,I wanted the big developers to shop with us and pay what the models are actually worth.but what we have are the small indie developers who want to buy content at the low prices we currently have,which is fair enough..and which in retrospect is exactly what I should have expected..the big studios have specific needs and their own development teams.it is the indie teams that need the low cost content..
Game engines today can throw around a massive amount of polys,animations and particles,in some respects I'd say game engines like Unreal,Frostbite and Cryengine can do so much more than we can in DAZ Studio,so I have no worries that our content would work in them..but in saying that our models are certainly not optimized or built with game engines in mind,sure the indie devs will say they can optimize the models/textures but as a content creator I know that I would make things a in a very different way if I were making with games in mind,and I would hate to see credit being given to me after someone has optimized the models/textures to fit what they need.everything from the type of textures I would make,to the type of modeling I would use,and then just simple things like working to a grid,or the number of drawcalls/materials.for example most customers want as many different materials as they can get,it adds more options..but in a game engine the number of materials can have more of a bearing than the polycount of the models.
my models are already as low poly as I can get them with relation to the apps being used(Poser, DAZ Studio) and would be made very different if sold as game assets.
so I do see it as a bit half arsed to sell our content that's never even seen a game engine under a game license..it's just not being made with a game engine in mind..and the market of game developers wanting to buy our content is so small that it's not worth the time to make it so.
another issue is how well the game does,I know i'd be a bit pissed off to see an indie game go triple A and make millions while using models they only paid a pittance for,and some of those indie games do just that
piracy is actually the least of my reasons for not wanting to sell,I think there's far more piracy among our own community than there would be with game devs,
Cheers
Stefan
While game lisences would be nice
I would like to personally talk to vendors and talk to them into making content that I would need to my characters, but can also allow them to sale the item I's want.
Since we'll be using Daz models (V4, M4, Genesis, ect), they could sale them, while they could if it was a standalone figure
Shoes is my main issue, while I'd be using Marvelous Designer/CLo3D for my clothes
And hair would be my next worry
You made a lot of good points on your post imo.
Big game developers will never show up here, at least not for environmental/architectural content, figures could be useful to them to a certain point.
Game graphics are an entirely different thing. It starts even before the tech comes into play, with a game`s design outlines. It`s unlikely you get a consistent design by buying sets from 20 independent artists. One great looking room (which is more or less the usual scope of our assets) in most cases doesn`t help building a game level. No point in even starting with the tech issues.
As for the part I quoted ... the fact game engines can do more than Daz Studio / Poser in many areas bothers me a lot.
While I quickly gave up on looking for a link between Daz and game development, I keep thinking gamers could and should be something for Daz to target.
Character editors on RPGs, the Sims, any city building game ... I think those kinda strike the same nerve like Daz, just in a more direct way. In other terms, I am dreaming of some sort of real time mode for Daz Studio, or a real time offspring. Something artists here could support because we would know the tech base. Let people scan their faces with tools like Kinect, do stupid animations with it, upload it right to youtube ...stuff like that. Or work closely with some big game devs to turn Daz Studio into some sort of external character editor.
Gosh, I am getting carried away, and a bit off topic ....sorry ;)