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This discussion has become very insightful and I really appreciate all those who have contributed. I also hope I have not offended any PA's by my sometime hack job "game demo" implementations :red: I owe your work more justice that I do in my - ahem shall we say "experimentation's". I do try to keep it all fun and not drag products into the mud too much. (sorry Sasquatch!)
I also do hear the concerns understand perceptions oh how between 3d and 2d publishing differ yet the risks do apply to both formats pretty equally. Licensed 3d content may and does get used in a very tasteless 2d renders and animations. It seems sometimes the more offensive, the more the viral videos spread on some media outlets. So I think visibility and application risk is about the same with that of 3d games. But focusing on games is not where the future in real time 3d media publishing is. Interactive stories and real-time social interaction is where its going. Its also where I see a greater difference is in value and use of a 3d content library. For instance in real-time 3d media publications its also possible that the user may actually interact and pose and SCREEN CAPTURE "Selfies" third party licensed characters, clothes and props and other effects and distribution of that screen capture is where things get real sticky and probably needs better definition. (Have fun with that one Zuckerman...)
With regards to value, I think that the DAZ game license model is great if you plan on using lots of DO's. You all nailed it, its the Indy / Nooby game developer that will be most likely wanting DAZ, or the DS studio artist that wants a 3d game under his belt. I also think the 3DUniverse and RealLusion game license uplifts have very good value too and anything that is few times the price of the 2d license is fine for the hobbiest. Any revenue hobbyists make are probably only earning ad revenue on games and other 3d media renders on their blog sites, I have been hosting blogs for years and combined ad revenue barely just covers hosting costs and not even 1/10 what I spend on 3d content. Someone who commercially charges for a game maybe should have to do a revenue split, or pay a tiered amount. That should be disclosed up front, so they can plan on it. I would not object to non-commercial use with an indy license and have to pony up a revenue share if the game becomes worthy of selling. Revenue share would/could be like based on the #'s sales & and amount of licensed content in terms of bytes . That way more texture depth used, more charged... Really Marketeers, Legislatures and international copyright law really needs to catch up with the current state of the internet and 3d doesn't ?
OK how to get a figure in the hands of a big production house? Develop a distinguishable product, Push it, brand it and spread its endearing features all over the web like 3dU does. Exposure does wonders and you need to get familiar brand across, "Hot branded" media products sell better than starting off cold. That's my philosophy anyways. Maybe it don't work so great but I type a lot so its worth more than two bits :)
1. Is everything under Daz3d Originals cover by Indie Game Developer License?
2. When I click under Daz Originals, for some reason I see another name/names listing next to DAZ3d, for example (Shop more by: DAZ 3D, Mada, Sarsa. Is it still considered DAZ 3D owned models that are covered by Indie Game Developer License. Since it's a technically a DAZ3d Original?
3. Once I buy the Indie Game Developer License, will my online/print out receipt be the only proof I have stating I officially have the license to use daz products for commercial use in my video game?
4. For each individual product I buy from Daz Originals, can daz 3d models be use in "FULL" 3D environment Videos Games? For example can be use 3D game engines?
If Daz is the vender name, yes.
It also includes products with say...it shows Daz & another vender name
but nothing else, unless you look at RawArt things
If Daz is the vender name, yes.
It also includes products with say...it shows Daz & another vender name
but nothing else, unless you look at RawArt things
I can back this up, I asked Daz direct
This reinforces my desire to know who you (and the other PA) sell stuff to at the moment. Is there anything in the EULA that would prevent someone from creating a very successful web video, TV show or Movie from your stuff? I don't see how it is a different "risk"
Yeah I do hope that nobody is out their thinking that game devs are less honest than 2D people!
Totally agree with "Stonemason".
Stonemason did seem more concerned with the money the game was making than the piracy though. So it was that angle I was going for.
I guess the philosophical debate over whether a pirate is lost sales or not is one that we will never get to the bottom of. Which is better, selling 1000 copies and having 100 pirated copies, or selling 1200 copies and having 500 pirated copies? Yes the piracy is enraging and frustrating, but you still have more money...
This is very sad news indeed :( but also frustrating to hear of more first hand experience of piracy, but no explanation on how it turned out. Where were they being distributed? Who did you report to? What happened?
Stonemason did seem more concerned with the money the game was making than the piracy though. So it was that angle I was going for.
I guess the philosophical debate over whether a pirate is lost sales or not is one that we will never get to the bottom of. Which is better, selling 1000 copies and having 100 pirated copies, or selling 1200 copies and having 500 pirated copies? Yes the piracy is enraging and frustrating, but you still have more money...
This is very sad news indeed :( but also frustrating to hear of more first hand experience of piracy, but no explanation on how it turned out. Where were they being distributed? Who did you report to? What happened?
Yes- if there assets were ripped from one game and injected into another - however is this the case?
Or did someone download a pirated asset downloaded from a torrent site and inject that in the game (after optimizing for asset game)?
This difference is key as to where the theft and distribution is originating - and who is perpetuating it.
Are there 3D renders out there that are also using pirated assets? Not so easy to identify huh?
So game publishers are being ignored because of obscurity, for the sole purpose maintaining that obscurity because there is a perception that not being excluded, the obscure exacerbates the perception. It is an endless loop until the obscure become the majority. At some point the demand will not be ignored as 3d publishing soon becomes the norm.
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RE Decimator. Although it works like a magic wand, it must be properly applied to achieve great results.
Decimator is a tool that uses algorithms to combine, condense and triangulate polygons. It includes a filter that allows you to apply weighting to poly-groups to control the ratio of reduction by polygrouping so key details are retained as decimation (condensing polys) level increases./appropriately. Decimation cannot be adjusted at a finer granularity than the mesh poly-grouping. Therefore uneven distribution of polygons in a mesh will be exacerbated. In other-words, mesh objects such as props that were developed by non surface oriented mesh modelers such as a CAD program will have and un-even polygon density and irregular UV mapping. Per vertex paint shading tools are required to properly texture objects like this otherwise they must be "blanket-wrapped" with unbounded image. However using certain mesh tools, you can easily fix this stuation by re-topologizing the object. Modeling tools like ZBrush have advanced manual and auto "retopo" tools, however UV wrapping tools also have the ability to adjust topology automatically and evenly distribute polygons. If the evenly distributed mesh is converted to quad, you have precisely the same type of topology that most DAZ figures have. Topology is overrated in its effect a bit here as DAZ/Poser users love thier quads, however its been demonstrated that mesh topology has very little to do with animate-ability and everything to do with UV. Since games engine mostly use rigid rig binding (polygroup to bone assignment) and DAZ/Poser use parameters and maps to blend vertices or "skin" the bones with a blended vertex layer.
Decimator and similar tools are used several times in the figure development process - even on store bought 3d models. Figure developers often make a ultra-high detail prototype mesh or parts (think sub-assembly) for extremely complex models. This prototype is then divided into logical (anatomical ) groupings. Sometimes the sub-mesh parts became groupings of the whole. Because a vertices of a prototype sculpted mesh has undergone thousands of translations and adjustments prior to completion, often many defects like inversions, flip sides, and holes occur. The grouped figure is now "retopologized" to remove these defects. This may be accomplished via decimation, but more likely other "additive" rather than purely reduction tools were used. Some developers will manually apply a polygon layer to the prototype to create a new mesh skin.
It saddens me that piracy is bad enough to chase people out of a market altogether. Since I may be opening myself up to similar risks one day, I am curious, where/how did you spot the piracy? Are your things being resold in other projects? What response did you get from the store where things were being resold, am I naive in thinking that the appstores would take claims of piracy seriously?
It's rampant everywhere. Just doing searches for 3D model sites, I came across one that has several non-rigged objs of Cookie from Lady Littlefox.
On top of that, I can easily search Google and find any popular PA's content in Torrent after Torrent. This problem is commonplace with almost any program and type of media, however.
It's bad enough that if you go searching on Google for free 3D models of almost any format, you'll garner hits for tons of Warez sites. It's bad enough that I just avoid anything that sounds the very least bit dubious (e.g. anything with "free downloads" in its site name or its main site URL) It's almost not worth searching Google for free 3D models, because everything that comes up is either going to be a commercial site that requires account registration, a product list site, a blog, or a warez site.
Nice statement, a bit naive, but nice to see you passionate against pirates, in my experience, many pirates are simple users that have no sense of right or wrong and want their 5 minutes of fame on the internet from their peers by uploading someone elses work to a torrent or web site and because legit users can’t/won’t be inconvenienced since it doesn’t directly affect them, this behavior continues..
Only in industrialized countries. Piracy is exponentially more popular in countries like China, Russia, Brazil, etc. This is partly because their country doesn't fight piracy as hard as many countries, but there is another major component, that I blame the producers of said products for (but not the small-time PAs or sites like DAZ Studio). Due to currency value discrepancy, a movie, game, 3D model, etc. from an industrialized country can cost a full month's salary for someone living in Mexico/China/etc (to give you an example, a $USD 10 movie or music CD would cost somewhere around 2 week's pay for the average person in China) So for anyone in that country who is not upper class, piracy is the only way that they'll ever get a hold of such products. I myself find it unfair that, due to their only fault of being born in a country with a crappy currency exchange, that the majority of these citizens have no possibility of ever purchasing things that we take for granted. (That is NOT to say that I condone their piracy, esp. uploading it to the internet where people from industrialized countries can D/L it) As far as movies, I think the solution would be for the RIAA and MPAA to produce greatly reduced-quality products for those countries without the extras seen in the regular releases (this would reduce the likelihood that Americans will drive to Mexico to get a cheaper version of the product) With 3D models and programs however, (as well as books) there is no easy solution.
However, another cause of piracy (which unlike the above I do not feel sympathy for) is high-priced software-- Photoshop CS costs 1000 dollars-- so of course it's going to be pirated to hell and back. Paintshop Pro-- I imagine, isn't pirated to nearly the same degree as far as percentage of users-- since it only costs about 99 to 120 USD.
Then you have the high-end 3D programs-- the industry standard-- which cost between 1500 and 3000 dollars. This makes them available only to the rich and major businesses. (Though in the past few years, most of the 3D and 2D developers have offered monthly licenses for their products, which are cheaper on the short term-- though after a few months, you're going to rack up a fee that exceeds the price of buying the actual product-- so IMO people are better off just saving up their money)
Those of us who live in a fully industrialized country should never take it for granted. Although the currency gap in some countries (namely China and Russia) is gradually narrowing.
Now, as far as the pirates in industrialized countries, the majority can be divided into several different categories-- most either immoral or weakly moral. The most common probably just doesn't care or thinks they're entitled to everyone's stuff. Then you also have types who justify it by claiming (or by the fact) that the publisher of said content is very corrupt (the RIAA and MPAA are perfect examples, if you've seen their track record from the early 80's when they took the makers of the VHS to court and onward) Or that they're anarchists who don't believe in intellectual property (though it must be stressed that there are PLENTY of such anarchists who neither contribute to nor condone piracy-- in fact, many have been contributors to creative content of some type)
Unfortunately, I’ve seen far too many instances of ‘borrowed assets’ in games, even when no such license to use it in a game is implied or allowed.
Yeah, it's particularly bad when it comes to scifi. Seems like most stuff is either pirated, or it's original content of intellectual property such as Star Trek or Halo.
If you are a Platinum Club member, the Indie Game Developer License is on sale today for $250
http://www.daz3d.com/indie-game-developer-license
Thanks opal for the passionate response, but if a lot of piracy is by people too poor to buy the product or too selfishly entitled to buy the stuff then even if we could stop piracy tomorrow, I don't see you getting any more sales from them. Plus more details about piracy without any more details about what happens when you try and fight it...
Artini, looks like it is worth becoming platinum for that discount, thanks :) any ideas when that sale ends?
more on this here - perhaps threads should merge : http://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/39863/
Its clear to me that the majority of DAZ users including myself are hobbyists and that game or any type of 3d media publishing will probably not be intended and perhaps not even viable for commercial sale or mass distributions. Therefore to promote content sales, 3d publishing license options should reflect this scope and use rather than assuming all games are revenue generating endeavors. Just like 2d renders, it just not likely to be the case. One license per game or such will limit the associated content sold and people will not procure in advance of need. They will not attempt to build a library.
It appears that prior attempts to sell licenses for commercial use have failed in large part for this reason. If the concern is that successful games leveraging licensed product does not fairly compensate the content developer, commercially unsuccessful games will not better achieve this goal. I think 3d publishing licenses should be sold with the mindset that they promote and encourage more content sales with library building rather working what consumers do with it. Too risky a business plan IMO..
Is a game/3d publishing license cost too high that its ENCOURAGING commercial distribution of a game license? A substantial investment by the consumer will demand a ROI. Is it realistic and possible to expect that? What about freebie or browser based casual games or tech demos? Should free distribution be forbidden?
Is it a use license, or is it a joint venture business agreement?
For someone who has no knowledge at all on what is needed for game assets, this thread has been very informative. I'll offer a few thoughts on why game licenses are not more prevalent here.
Wendy, could you elaborate on this please? What sort of textures, what file size, resolution, etc would be useful? For myself, half of my store here is DAZ Studio lighting which will be of no use to a game creator. I can make textures though, I just had no idea that a game creater would have any sort of purpose for them.
Next point, like many PAs, I have always thought the poly count of the typical model sold here was not feasable for gaming use. By reading the thread it appears that many would find value in having a higher poly model that they could reduce themselves for the specifications of the project. Again, I had no idea that was possible or desired.
*Warning. Extreme generalization ahead.*
Why don't PAs offer game licenses? Many don't think we have items of use to game creators. Many don't think people actually want to pay the much higher price that would have to be charged. Many don't want to bother, don't have the time or desire to create or support "game ready" products, and many are concerned about the risk of piracy.
Please note: I have no statistics on what percentage of DAZ PAs hold any sort of opinion one way or the other.
My advice would be if you see something in the store that you just have to use in your game, contact sales support to see if they can intercede with the PA to determine if something can be worked out.
at the moment if you do a render of a figure in a tpose dressed front and back and apply it as a texture to a flat mapped 3D model it is considered akin to shrink wrapping
I know as others have asked this.
with a simple skin shader one could texture a whole heap of simple lowpoly figures this way in a variety of outfits like 3D sprites.
but you would be stealing the texture artists work as well as Daz clothing.
I do not think it would warrant a full license as it is like sprites but some sort of lower priced one.
That given the $250 price tag at the moment looks tempting but I am still not able to do more than render animated figres in Unreal at the moment, making a game is way beyond me so not buying yet.
Rendering as video like I can only do is normal permissable use.
Ah, got it. I've seen variations of "paper dolls" using this idea of rendering various outfits on a transparent background and layering them interchangeably with pre rendered figures. People who do digital scrapbooking and signature tag making like these sorts of things. I could help with the texture part, but not the clothing model part. Thanks for the clarification.
golly - every neat item I see in the store triggers a 3d scene in mind. There are VERY FEW products in the store that cannot be applied in 3d media. Just like in 2d, it takes some creativity and effort to make your 3d dreams come to life on screen.
Again please expand the concept to 3d media publishing and not just games...
Here is an example of a senic 3d art gallery: http://www.grifioartgallery.com/sale/terraorientale/ and the really neat 3d stories at http://www.dreamingmethods.com/ and here is one of my own amateur creations a 3d movie, Volcano Rescue http://farmpeeps.com/fp_volcanorescue_mrc12.html
Destiny'sGarden textures, shaders and lights can be used in these. Some may not need to be real-time rendered, like your hair shaders and lights but they can be applied to create textures and effects that are applied in 2d in the 3d real-time rendered project, Its really no different than how its used today. Its the market changes.
Furthermore wouldn't the hordes of Minecraft users be the least bit interested in some of the fun this stuff DAZ offers? Not for minecraft itself perhaps but these kids are are a market of 3d savvy users using that really would look at DAZ as the next logical step in the development of thier hobby activities. Minecraft involves 3d skinning (Textures and UV) , and scene building. If they see it as 2d pictures only - it will have the attraction of a coloring book.
I can think of 33 million reasons why its a good idea.
So if someone was to make a game with their renders, like a flash based, would we contact the sellers that don't have gaming rights yet to purchase the rights?
Those PAs who have decided to offer game development licenses so far have had then added to the DAZ 3D store.
Only time will tell if other PAs decide to do this.
If the game just use 2D renders then there is no need for a Game Developer License - that is for products that embed 3D data or textures.
Ok, ok I just remember playing various facebook games that are just pictures and point and click options but they're still games so thought rules would appy
Mine will be up before too long. It's mostly through the testing queue.