Any reason to bother with V4 any longer?
jukingeo
Posts: 711
Hello All!
I am wondering if I should bother with V4 (and Michael 4) any more. I had started with Daz Studio in December of 2018 and since then I made heavy purchases for Genesis 8 and that lead me to buy Genesis 3 as well, since many products have dual use for Genesis 3 and 8. I also bought into Genesis as well since that format is unisex. I really have not bought much into Genesis 2. Now I have "purchased" some Victoria 4 (V4) and Michael 4 items mainly due to to freebies (hence the purchased in quotes), and package deals. I have tried to use V4, but the organization of it is all over the place in Daz Studio, with most items in "Lost And Found." It seems the clothing has more problems with smoothing and pokethrough than any newer character base. It also seems that the backward compatibility of Genesis 8 goes as far back to Genesis, but doesn't include V4, so the clothing seemingly can't be used on later model characters without some serious issues.
Another reason why I don't use V4 too much is because of some unrealistic attributes. For example, a glaring issue is how high the armpits are on V4. The characters look cartoonish at best.
I guess it is still around for those that made an investment in V4 with earlier versions of Daz Studio, or for those that used Poser, but given I came into Daz Studio fairly recently and right away took to Genesis 8. So I am wondering if should even bother with V4 any more. Given that space is at a premium on my hard drive, I currently do not download anything that is V4 or M4 based any more, and I am ready to delete it to free up some space.
Any comments or opinions are appreciated.
Thank you,
Geo
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Comments
No
Lots of people love v4. A thing is a thing to me. It is more about how you use it then what you use.
V4 was before my time, so I am more attached to the Genesis line, Personally, but that is not that v4 is bad, just that I simply came along and used other tools.
I would not use V4, but I also do not have an extensive library.
It takes a lot to bring her up to modern standards. It's the knowledge as much as anything else.
Yes, some artists do amazing work with her, but they learned a LOT over the years in working with her.
There's a learning curve, and it takes time to understand each generation's strengths and weaknesses.
With V4, why? Why do it if you haven't already learned it?
It's much easier and better to just start with a current figure and learn that. Genesis 3 and/or 8 will do just fine. There is zero reason to go back that far to V4, IMO, unless you already know how to maximize her use. Any V4-based models that I do have, I only own them to apply onto Genesis 8.
I only work with G8 but I enjoy converting older assets to G8, including M4/V4 skins, morphs, and sometimes clothes. Is that necessary? I guess not, but I'm having fun with it. Do what you enjoy!
if you have no reason then that is reason enough
lots of people me included still use all the older figures as well as the new ones
but I do have a huge amount of content too
and don't just use DAZ studio
While the shape and the way the characters move are very important, faces are important too. I have seen a couple of posts over time from people who believe some of the prettiest characters were V4 characters, and faces like those were hard to find in later generations. I think that may be true, although I've seen some later characters that are very pretty. But I think anybody who isnt already invested in Victoria 4 shouldn't start now.
About the only reason to use gen4 and earler characters is if you really, really like their looks (at this point one referrs the OP to the Akio 3 thread), or if you need a figure that doesn't have weightmapped rigging. Gen4 was the last generation to use legacy rigging by default.
One problem with legacy rigging is that the bends are generaly not great. Not unusable, and there were a lot of 3rd-party fixes, but not great, and the fixes cost extra. One good point about legacy rigging is that the same figure could be used seamlessly in either Studio or Poser. It's Poser users who have kept and are keeping gen4 alive and viable. There are rather a lot of vendors in other markets which are still developing for gen4.
However. That said, it you are a newish user and only use Studio, the gen4 base figures are probably not worth the investment. (They were also way high-poly, and you couldn't get very many of them into one scene.)
On the other hand, there is a *lot* of content for gen4 and most of it can be converted to work with the newer weightmapped figures.
If you are prepared to load files and resave them as .duf, the gen4 skins can be used on G1 and G2 pretty much without issue. You might need a 3rd-party add-on for G2 but G1 will use them out of the box.
Clothing can usually be converted, but often autofit will do although it might take some tweaking and fighting with. Autofit gets better with just about every generation.
just about any gen4 hair model can be used by later figures out of the box. Parent and scale them instead of fiting them to the figure if they give you problems. If you use Iray, most of the Iray shader packs are your friends.
If you fall in love with a specific character, however. Then you will probably need the base.
Three reasons that I use 4th generation figures:
2. I have Reby Sky elite for Victoria 4. https://www.daz3d.com/v4-elite-reby-sky I have issues using her hair on Genesis 1. I guess my computer is too slow. Her skin texture maps just fine though.
2. I have a bunch of scenes that I created using generation 4 figures that I don't want to remake from scratch using newer figures. I just edit the older scenes - replace clothes, change poses of Victoria 4 and Mike 4, ect.
3. My video card only has 2 gigbytes of memory. Sometimes I add lots of Victoria 4 and Genesis 1 figures when I want a scene that has many people. Genesis 3 and 8 figures use a bunch of RAM.
Other than those threeinstances I use Genesis 1 and 2. I don't have many clothes for Genesis 3 and 8.
SimpleDetailsV4 & SimpleDetailsV4-MorphEx by Corvas (at Renderosity) will fix V4's high armpits, and there is an M4 fixer as well, currently on sale (you can get all three for $11.25). If you don't have Fit Control, then you are missing an invaluable resource for making clothes do what you desire. 5 Tb small drives are less than $100. There will be a lot of quality V4 free stuff available in the future, but it appears that your mind is already tilted towards the negative.
I use them often specially hair and wardrobe items.
I convert older textures to G8; some great ones out there.
Otherwise, not really, but go with what you like.
For hair and clothing that you want to convert but is not likely to be offered again in Generation 3, 8, & later and are PC+ items it's well worth you money to buy those if you do anything other than pinup style renders. The sets, vehicles, and props from back then that are PC+ as well are worth buying and converting to iRay if you like.
Sure, why not?
Depends. There are certainly better characters in later generations but some generation 4 characters have unique faces and unique outfits that can still be used after a little tweaking of surfaces. David3 has some really unique face/character options. Whatever works for what you do and need.
Like, Mike Deodato Jr is still probably making a pretty good living using largely Michael 3. So it's up to you. It's the artist not the tools.
Would Mike Deotto Jr use M3 if he were starting now?
Fair point.
fair point
Wow! That is quit a response from both sides of the fence. Really my main reason for posting is that in just a year and a half since I been on Daz Studio, I have noticed that my new (as of 2018) 1 TB hard drive is already HALF FULL! I bought this drive to replaced a 500gig drive that was nearing capacity when I started Daz.
Initially I did look into and bought some V4 items, but again that was either because it was part of a package deal or it was offered free (or nearly free) altogether. At first the fast loading times of the figures looked promising, but then came the fighting with poke through and other clothing issues. Genesis started the auto-fit and the loading times were only slightly longer. However, even Genesis I find very limiting in terms of realism. But many issue were corrected such as the armpit joints. Also, Genesis clothing I find does fit well onto Gen 8 provided you don't do much leg bending with long skirts, otherwise there is that "fabric tearing" between the legs and sometimes under the arms. The latter I have noticed to be a nuisance with Genesis 3 clothing on Genesis 8. At the point I started with Daz, I had noticed that Genesis 3 seemed to have the best offering in terms of clothing. There were many items I wanted, so I started to buy some outfits only to find that no all of them work. Here the glaring issue is boots...It seems that for the most part Genesis 8 seems to like ONLY Genesis 8 footwear. There are exceptions to the rule and there are some tricks that can be used, but in the end, I just decided to invest in Genesis 3 as well. Genesis 3 was Genesis 2 backward compatible, so if there was a Gen 2 outfit I really liked, I tried it out first on both a Gen 3 and Gen 8 character to see how well it did.
Out of everything, Genesis 2 I have the least of and noting how much I been dipping into my wallet for Daz Studio, I had decided that I am going to keep what I have for Genesis, but only invest in Genesis 3 and 8 now.
So I would follow the path for those that said, "No" above, since I came on much later than when V4 was the main character to work with. So for those that started with V4, they would already have a bunch of items for that figure base. As it is, when the time comes that Daz offers an updated figure for Genesis 8, I seriously doubt I would buy everything all over again for the latest figure. I am just hoping the autofit would work much better on a new figure than it currently does with Genesis 8, as there are still quite a few compatibility problems. With hair, I have tried to use Genesis and Genesis 3 hair on Genesis 8 and it was hit and miss. Somethings worked great, but when it didn't work...many times it crashed Daz. Thankfully there are many dual options for hair, clothing AND figures that were created for both Genesis 3 and Genesis 8, so I purposely look out for those.
So I have my answer, and I am surprised at how many responses I received just the first day of my posting!
Thanks to all!
Geo
I started on Poser about a decade ago, so I've obtained a lot of Generation 4 characters and wardrobe over the years. Recently, I've obtained more as either freebies or at huge discounts. I make selective purchases at chump-change prices.
Generation 4 wardrobe will usually autofit to Genesis and Genesis 2 characters pretty well.
It would help if Daz would give us a better way to reassign Lost and Found items to their proper categories. Plenty of Genesis 8 stuff ends up incorrectly assigned in Smart Content, so this isn't only a problem for old/obsolete items.
The OP complained about Victoria 4 armpits, which I interpret as just an extension of problems with the torso/trunk in general. The better Generation 4 character morphs look okay to me, so it isn't necessarily a problem with Generation 4 as a whole. The biggest issue I have is the distortion of the limbs once you get a Generation 4 character out of their T-pose. Each successive Genesis generation has posed more easily and realistically.
I've never tried to animate a figure from Generation 4 (or anything before Genesis 2).
If you only use IRAY to render, Generation 4 items will give results ranging from "just fine" to "completely unusable and requiring a different shader." You can't really guess from the promo renders. I still use 3Delight for a minority of renders, so I can live with this.
The usefulness of Generation 4 characters depends on your patience and willingness to recognize limits (and to tolerate them). For many, they are probably clutter and not worth obtaining, even for free. But, with the right user, great renders can still be made with them.
I started with V2 and M2. Currently all my main characters are Genesis 1, and I use both earlier and later hair, wardrobe, poses, and skins, and some GenX'd morphs from earlier figures. As I work my way through scenes that need updating and new scenes, I decide whether characters need updating. There are a lot of V4, M3, and D3 characters that I may leave as they are.
In terms of disk space, the biggest things are textures. So I uninstall outfits I don't need. But since the outfits and hair are easy to convert, if I think I might use them I want them available. And if I want to update an old scene I may want to have those things installed so I can load the old scene. I tend to collect hair, just for the variety -- if I have a group of people who culturally wear long braids, I don't want them to all use the exact same hair.
I also use 3delight, so it's less effort to spruce up older stuff then it is to convert Iray materials. I have several Iray-to-3delight converters, and other people say they work great, but I've never had much luck with them, so I almost never buy products that don't have 3delight materials. The ones I bought because they were exactly what I needed usually ended up not being used.
There are a surprisingly large number of G1 hold-overs in here. I'm one as well.
I have to say G8 figures are beautiful, but for my workflow, render-style, and content collection, it's not 'better enough' to warrant the migration. I don't need/want that level of detail. The DS support for G1 (from past and since) G1 has made it a good place to settle for me. Compatibility with older and newer stuff is pretty solid.
Per sevrin, if I were starting out, I would not go with the mil4 (or pre) generation - but, if I were starting out with DS and planning to animate *in* DS, the strongest built-in support is still with G1 and Mil4 - everything since then is kind-of hacked onto their animation tools. Recent animation investments from DS dev may change that, but a lot of us are getting 'blue' holding our breaths. I'm going Iclone for animation tools on my DAZ chars. Rendering may be there or exported - TBD. I actually wish it was easier to get back from Iclone to DS (for 3DL npr rendering), but the economics probably don't make sense, so I'm not going to wait.
With the growing animation workflow gateways from char-development on DS to Iclone/Blender/Maya for animation and rendering on or beyond those platforms, I would probably go with the G8 family if I were an animator starting out. The unisex nature of G1 would be the only reason I might still go with G1, but ... industry and tool support are making G8 easier to go with each day.
Still renders - I'd go DS/G8 family if just getting in. Or Aiko3 (seriously, if anime is your style :)
2c,
--ms
I was an avid Aiko 3 user for 9 years. Loved working with the figure. But that is old technology that cannot compare in ability or quality to newer stuff, in general. I do wish some of the A3 clothing could be moved forward to newer generations. The ability to mix morphs and fit clothing to all the various characters in the store are two of the biggest strengths of the Genesis figures and the vast compatability between Genesis 3 & 8 makes it even more compelling to buy into other generations that you dont normally use.
After reading the next set of posts, I forgot to mention that, yes, I am Iray only. I have only tried 3Delight Twice and on both occasions, the render was dog-@$$ slow and it crashed and didn't finish...another popular four letter word came out of my mouth and I stuck with Iray.
As Mindsong said above, I still do find Genesis intriguing mainly because of the unisex feature. Money was saved in having one hair set and one clothing set for both Male and Female. But I see why that idea was quickly shot down in subsequent Geneis figures as there is more money to be made in separating the sexes. However, I have used clothing cross gender of the same figure type with really no ill effects.
But as with Genesis 3, Genesis (1), had quite a few nice clothing items and further, things such as swimsuits and bodysuits seem to transfer well to Genesis 8.
But as many indicated above, coming into Daz Studio at the time I did, it was wise to go down the Genesis 8 path, even though it certainly has proven to be rather expensive. And like with most that have come on board early on, many early purchasing mistakes were made. I had noted that there wasn't a decent manual for Daz Studio and, again, the reason for that is money again as there is a push to buy the tutorials. But me, I just asked a bunch of questions here. I have not bought many tutorials unless it was one that was deemed worthwhile.
So once again, thank you for the input.
Geo
If space is an issue, then yeah, I'd say not to bother with the V4 stuff. However, if you have space and like a challenge, then V4 stuff can be pretty fun. I really enjoy working with older content and polishing it up for Iray. The before and after conversations can be really cool. :) Again though, if space is a real issue, you might just stick to the newest generation products. :)
For the A3 clothing, you can make a clone. I made an A3 clone and a V4 clone for G8F following this tutorial: https://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/193296/freebie-how-to-create-a-v4-clone-and-transfer-other-figures-for-g8f-now-with-video/p1
It's really fun to be able to use older clothing sets on newer figures. Some do not transfer well, but many do. :)
Edit - If you don't want to make one yourself you can always use the Wear Them All Expansion to save the wearable to G3 then fit it to G8.
I think I need to learn how to do this soon (avoiding it for the obvious reasons - lots of steps, new ideas, etc.). Thanks for that link.
One other option when using non-targeted-figure-specific meshes is to use VWD for the dynamics to reshape and save a mesh - so shape the base figure as closely (or smaller) to the intended clothing figure (e.g. set V8 to just smaller than V4 for a V4 outfit), don't fit-to, but rather just load the outfit like a prop. Fit it manually... Then animate the target figure into the intended shape and pose - over 15-30 frames in DS (it will ignore the clothes and blow right through them in DS...), then use VWD, import the figure/clothes, run an animated sim for the 30 frames, and save it back to DS. You may need to do this over 60/100 ... frames to get the sim to flow better. If the mesh is pretty regular, this works pretty well. VWD can be fickle for complex things, but pretty simple for re-fitting clothes that have decent/regular mesh-density. Many older meshes/hairs do not, though, so it's not always an option. I think the demo at rendo freebies lets you do everything but save to DS, so you can at least see if the idea and meshes seem like they'll work.
This is a lot like what some of the workflows do with exporting the figure and outfit to MD as OBJs and draping on the 'avatar' (G8, etc.) over there, then pulling the result into the 3D app of choice.
YMMV,
--ms
I can sense the sadness in your tone. (fwiw, I love your work over the time-period, she served you well!)
--ms