HeadShop 13 with LoveChild

Charlie Judge

Has anybody tried the new HeadShop 13 with LoveChild yet? Is there really any significant improvement more than Headshop 12, especially in texture blending?

Emo Sludge

To be honest I can't imagine ever paying even the sale price for what it appears to offer, considering there are already other apps that seem to work better.

In every single one of their promo images you can see misaligned nostrils and areas of hair that didn't blend out properly and one very odd instance of an african face projected onto a white texture map (do they not offer different skin tones?).

It's really bad when the makers of the product can't even reach acceptable results.

Having never used any previous version of HeadShop, am I missing something? I'm geniunely wondering because this seems like it should be a $20 plug-in at full price at best.

Catherine3678ab

Be careful when making a purchase ... there are 2 types, one is an upgrade, the other is the full product.

While HeadShop works from a basic set of textures for the figure, initially loading a face texture. The rest of the textures and a better face texture image can be manually applied from the folder they were created into.

To work with various skin tones, i.e. very dark skins, one would want to replace that basic set of textures with an MR of their choosing OR a basic set made using the 'RST' [real skin tone] images [of which I've released a number].

For ALL of the morphing plugins/programs, ideally one normally uses the provided face texture - as is if you want to - but for more perfection, as a starter; fixing it in an image editor. While there, one can also add more details to the rest of the basic skin too. One can find MR and/or resource photographic images of people in a variety of stores. If you don't want to go with subscription websites, I can recommend ArtStation.

As to the morphing photograph being matched point for point, the quality of the photograph plays a big part ;-) HeadShop 13 can handle angled photos better. Do not use photos that are super large in weight. Properly lit portrait photos work best of course. And for some reason black/white photos may work better than coloured ones. No glasses, no beards, etc. of course. {such can be removed in an image editor before processing}

With regards to the skin textures provided, the REALLY nice thing is that TWO faces are provided. One has the photograph merged onto it, the other is without the photograph. So one can work with the morph and a clean base skin texture set for starters {or as is if so desired}.

The love child section allows one to morph what might be the result between 2 adults. As I recall one would then dial in child morphs [from other products] to resize the figure down properly.

 

Emo Sludge

Catherine3678ab said:

Be careful when making a purchase ... there are 2 types, one is an upgrade, the other is the full product.

While HeadShop works from a basic set of textures for the figure, initially loading a face texture. The rest of the textures and a better face texture image can be manually applied from the folder they were created into.

To work with various skin tones, i.e. very dark skins, one would want to replace that basic set of textures with an MR of their choosing OR a basic set made using the 'RST' [real skin tone] images [of which I've released a number].

For ALL of the morphing plugins/programs, ideally one normally uses the provided face texture - as is if you want to - but for more perfection, as a starter; fixing it in an image editor. While there, one can also add more details to the rest of the basic skin too. One can find MR and/or resource photographic images of people in a variety of stores. If you don't want to go with subscription websites, I can recommend ArtStation.

As to the morphing photograph being matched point for point, the quality of the photograph plays a big part ;-) HeadShop 13 can handle angled photos better. Do not use photos that are super large in weight. Properly lit portrait photos work best of course. And for some reason black/white photos may work better than coloured ones. No glasses, no beards, etc. of course. {such can be removed in an image editor before processing}

With regards to the skin textures provided, the REALLY nice thing is that TWO faces are provided. One has the photograph merged onto it, the other is without the photograph. So one can work with the morph and a clean base skin texture set for starters {or as is if so desired}.

The love child section allows one to morph what might be the result between 2 adults. As I recall one would then dial in child morphs [from other products] to resize the figure down properly.

So it sounds like I'm not really missing anything... You would think for a $100 program they would provide you with a few different skin tone textures, or at least be able to modify the hue of 1 base texture to at least attempt to closely match the face photo.

Also if they can't even provide promo photos where nostrils are lined up, there's not very much hope for the end user to do it any better, regardless of the photo quality.

And if you are most likely going to have to retexture anyway, I don't really see the point of purchasing something like this (especially for the asking price!) when you can do the same thing with the face transfer that comes with daz studio for free (it seems like it's just as much work if not more to retexture from the examples I saw for Head Shop as it would be to retexture the watermarked face transfer texture). You could also use Art Breeder or one of dozens of other free face mixing programs and then bring it into face transfer, so I'm not seeing any great extra value of love child.

I'm not trying to be rude, the advertising is honest at least. The price is just blowing my mind for the quality offered. If they can actually compete and sell in this market, good on them I guess. Although, I hope that people aren't fooled into buying it simply because of Daz's implicit endorsement by featuring it in their marketplace.

I'd like to add I'm not trying to knock anyone using head shop. This is all my opinion based on what I've seen, and I have never personally used the software so I could be totally off point here. If you're comfortable using a tool and it gets you where you need to go, then that's a good tool for you.

Catherine3678ab

Emo Sludge said:

Catherine3678ab said:

Be careful when making a purchase ... there are 2 types, one is an upgrade, the other is the full product.

While HeadShop works from a basic set of textures for the figure, initially loading a face texture. The rest of the textures and a better face texture image can be manually applied from the folder they were created into.

To work with various skin tones, i.e. very dark skins, one would want to replace that basic set of textures with an MR of their choosing OR a basic set made using the 'RST' [real skin tone] images [of which I've released a number].

For ALL of the morphing plugins/programs, ideally one normally uses the provided face texture - as is if you want to - but for more perfection, as a starter; fixing it in an image editor. While there, one can also add more details to the rest of the basic skin too. One can find MR and/or resource photographic images of people in a variety of stores. If you don't want to go with subscription websites, I can recommend ArtStation.

As to the morphing photograph being matched point for point, the quality of the photograph plays a big part ;-) HeadShop 13 can handle angled photos better. Do not use photos that are super large in weight. Properly lit portrait photos work best of course. And for some reason black/white photos may work better than coloured ones. No glasses, no beards, etc. of course. {such can be removed in an image editor before processing}

With regards to the skin textures provided, the REALLY nice thing is that TWO faces are provided. One has the photograph merged onto it, the other is without the photograph. So one can work with the morph and a clean base skin texture set for starters {or as is if so desired}.

The love child section allows one to morph what might be the result between 2 adults. As I recall one would then dial in child morphs [from other products] to resize the figure down properly.

So it sounds like I'm not really missing anything... You would think for a $100 program they would provide you with a few different skin tone textures, or at least be able to modify the hue of 1 base texture to at least attempt to closely match the face photo.

Also if they can't even provide promo photos where nostrils are lined up, there's not very much hope for the end user to do it any better, regardless of the photo quality.

And if you are most likely going to have to retexture anyway, I don't really see the point of purchasing something like this (especially for the asking price!) when you can do the same thing with the face transfer that comes with daz studio for free (it seems like it's just as much work if not more to retexture from the examples I saw for Head Shop as it would be to retexture the watermarked face transfer texture). You could also use Art Breeder or one of dozens of other free face mixing programs and then bring it into face transfer, so I'm not seeing any great extra value of love child.

I'm not trying to be rude, the advertising is honest at least. The price is just blowing my mind for the quality offered. If they can actually compete and sell in this market, good on them I guess. Although, I hope that people aren't fooled into buying it simply because of Daz's implicit endorsement by featuring it in their marketplace.

I'd like to add I'm not trying to knock anyone using head shop. This is all my opinion based on what I've seen, and I have never personally used the software so I could be totally off point here. If you're comfortable using a tool and it gets you where you need to go, then that's a good tool for you.

um, hmm ... one does not retexture watermarked face transfer textures for redistribution. Something called a license ;-)

Over time all products in the Daz3D store go on sale. I rather doubt too many people buy everything at full price. They buy memberships and wait for prices they are happy to spend on what they want.

It is a LOT easier to replace the base textures [swapping in one's own MRs] in HeadShop 13 than it is for Face Transfer.

Here's an example of the new textures it made using an MR available for free over at sharecg.com.

Emo Sludge

Catherine3678ab said:

Emo Sludge said:

Catherine3678ab said:

Be careful when making a purchase ... there are 2 types, one is an upgrade, the other is the full product.

While HeadShop works from a basic set of textures for the figure, initially loading a face texture. The rest of the textures and a better face texture image can be manually applied from the folder they were created into.

To work with various skin tones, i.e. very dark skins, one would want to replace that basic set of textures with an MR of their choosing OR a basic set made using the 'RST' [real skin tone] images [of which I've released a number].

For ALL of the morphing plugins/programs, ideally one normally uses the provided face texture - as is if you want to - but for more perfection, as a starter; fixing it in an image editor. While there, one can also add more details to the rest of the basic skin too. One can find MR and/or resource photographic images of people in a variety of stores. If you don't want to go with subscription websites, I can recommend ArtStation.

As to the morphing photograph being matched point for point, the quality of the photograph plays a big part ;-) HeadShop 13 can handle angled photos better. Do not use photos that are super large in weight. Properly lit portrait photos work best of course. And for some reason black/white photos may work better than coloured ones. No glasses, no beards, etc. of course. {such can be removed in an image editor before processing}

With regards to the skin textures provided, the REALLY nice thing is that TWO faces are provided. One has the photograph merged onto it, the other is without the photograph. So one can work with the morph and a clean base skin texture set for starters {or as is if so desired}.

The love child section allows one to morph what might be the result between 2 adults. As I recall one would then dial in child morphs [from other products] to resize the figure down properly.

So it sounds like I'm not really missing anything... You would think for a $100 program they would provide you with a few different skin tone textures, or at least be able to modify the hue of 1 base texture to at least attempt to closely match the face photo.

Also if they can't even provide promo photos where nostrils are lined up, there's not very much hope for the end user to do it any better, regardless of the photo quality.

And if you are most likely going to have to retexture anyway, I don't really see the point of purchasing something like this (especially for the asking price!) when you can do the same thing with the face transfer that comes with daz studio for free (it seems like it's just as much work if not more to retexture from the examples I saw for Head Shop as it would be to retexture the watermarked face transfer texture). You could also use Art Breeder or one of dozens of other free face mixing programs and then bring it into face transfer, so I'm not seeing any great extra value of love child.

I'm not trying to be rude, the advertising is honest at least. The price is just blowing my mind for the quality offered. If they can actually compete and sell in this market, good on them I guess. Although, I hope that people aren't fooled into buying it simply because of Daz's implicit endorsement by featuring it in their marketplace.

I'd like to add I'm not trying to knock anyone using head shop. This is all my opinion based on what I've seen, and I have never personally used the software so I could be totally off point here. If you're comfortable using a tool and it gets you where you need to go, then that's a good tool for you.

um, hmm ... one does not retexture watermarked face transfer textures for redistribution. Something called a license ;-)

Over time all products in the Daz3D store go on sale. I rather doubt too many people buy everything at full price. They buy memberships and wait for prices they are happy to spend on what they want.

It is a LOT easier to replace the base textures [swapping in one's own MRs] in HeadShop 13 than it is for Face Transfer.

Here's an example of the new textures it made using an MR available for free over at sharecg.com.

Just to be clear I did not mean retexture for redistribution! Just for personal use. I didn't realize that Head Shop could be used as a merchant resource, so I guess that can add to the value I suppose. 

So you're saying it exports a version of the face on it's own that is easy to add as a new layer over your own MR skin (or any skin in your library if for personal use) in the image editor of your choosing? I can see how that's helpful, although the examples from their promo do not make the skin quality look good to me at all, and I can't imagine using them for any sort of product. I only was speaking of retexturing earlier meaning that you would be repairing the texture or replacing the skin texture with another you already own because the skin texture it appears to output does not look usable.

Personally, even if it were on a 75% off sale, I would not consider $25 a fair price for what's offered, but that may just be me. I also know how to easily make better results face matching and texturing in Blender, so a product like this feels less crucial to me if it doesn't cut a significant amount of time from my workflow, which this would not.

Thanks for all the detailed explanations about the product though! I also think it's awesome how many MR's you give away for people to use and I think people using this product should definitely pair it with your skin textures for better results.

Charlie Judge

Catherine3678ab said:

Be careful when making a purchase ... there are 2 types, one is an upgrade, the other is the full product.

 

Thanks for your replies

I already own Headshop 12 with Love Cjild. What I really was asking is: Is HeadShop 13 enough of an improvement to, especially in texture blending, to justify upgrading from HS 12?

Rod Wise Driggo

Is this Windows, Mac or Cross-Platform. There's no readme file available it seems?!

Catherine3678ab

Charlie Judge said:

Catherine3678ab said:

Be careful when making a purchase ... there are 2 types, one is an upgrade, the other is the full product.

 

Thanks for your replies

I already own Headshop 12 with Love Cjild. What I really was asking is: Is HeadShop 13 enough of an improvement to, especially in texture blending, to justify upgrading from HS 12?

You're welcome. I don't know as I don't have Headshop 12 with Love Child. So I'm showing some of the images and hope it answers your question.

Of the 2 face textures it makes, the one with the photo merged to it, needs some work on the seam allowance but the seams are just fine on the 2nd face image.

If one uses the 'blank MR' images not on templates, the end result is not desired. Whichever texture image one uses while running the program, it will have information 'stamped' on it from the images in the program's folder. {which is why I changed them because nobody wants 500 editions that look alike of anybody}.

Now if you also have Face Transfer, that does a beautiful job IMHO of matching the skin's hues TO the photo being used. {but switching out the original figure's textures for MRs is a bit of a task, I have a tutorial for that in my tutorial thread.} However Face Transfer's morphs 'need help' if wanting side renders and so the additional morph package for that utility was made [and appreciated] but those additional morphs are not MR of course.

 

Catherine3678ab

Going by the promo page: HS 13 introduces much-improved texture blending that samples 3 separate points of skin surface.

Whatever that means, if you're using a black/white photo, it is not going to change the textures to black and white.

....................

Definitely works on W10.

Edit to update: No, there is no Mac edition for HS13.

 

ericolsen

When I was having some issues with this program a month ago, this PA spent over an hour with me via Skype getting it all working. So just chiming in here that the fellow is quite helpful and he responds to emails quickly. He did a demo on my laptop of the latest version, showing a dark skinned face blending with a dark body that produced good results.  I agree it's a shame the promotional images don't do the product justice.    

iSeeThis

I have Headshop Oneclick. Can I upgrade? The promo page doesn't declare this.

daveso

Emo Sludge said:

To be honest I can't imagine ever paying even the sale price for what it appears to offer, considering there are already other apps that seem to work better.

In every single one of their promo images you can see misaligned nostrils and areas of hair that didn't blend out properly and one very odd instance of an african face projected onto a white texture map (do they not offer different skin tones?).

It's really bad when the makers of the product can't even reach acceptable results.

Having never used any previous version of HeadShop, am I missing something? I'm geniunely wondering because this seems like it should be a $20 plug-in at full price at best.

what are the better working apps? I need to check them out. thanks

Catherine3678ab

iSeeThis said:

I have Headshop Oneclick. Can I upgrade? The promo page doesn't declare this.

Page says one can upgrade from HeadShop 9, 10, 11 or 12.

Dkgoose

i've been interested in this is curious if they'll do an upgrade to the broken up headshop 12, i have the headshop 12 for genesis 8 but not the full version 

info_b3470fa520

Dkgoose said:

i've been interested in this is curious if they'll do an upgrade to the broken up headshop 12, i have the headshop 12 for genesis 8 but not the full version 

Yes. ALL HeadShops since HeadShop 9.

info_b3470fa520

ericolsen said:

When I was having some issues with this program a month ago, this PA spent over an hour with me via Skype getting it all working. So just chiming in here that the fellow is quite helpful and he responds to emails quickly. He did a demo on my laptop of the latest version, showing a dark skinned face blending with a dark body that produced good results.  I agree it's a shame the promotional images don't do the product justice.    

Thanks.

Worlds_Edge

I can't find any instructions on installation or use.  Can someone point me to them.  It's been a while since I manually installed anything or used the earlier version of Headshop.  Thanks.

Catherine3678ab

Sure, there's a preliminary manual and video link in his commercial thread.

 

fred9803

I had high hopes when I saw this appear on the shop. After looking at the promo pictures that didn't last long. I'd love Abalone to have success wih the prog as the concept is good, but if the promos represent the best it can do... back to the drawing board.

The problem as I see it is that to get a realistic "copy" of a likeness you have to use an image that has burnt in highlights and shadows, but that image itself results in having a very unrealistic look about it, especially when your lighting doesn't match the lighting condition under which the face picture was taken.

info_b3470fa520

Worlds_Edge said:

I can't find any instructions on installation or use.  Can someone point me to them.  It's been a while since I manually installed anything or used the earlier version of Headshop.  Thanks.

Please read README. Has detailed installation instructions (also included in the downloaded zip). .

Charlie Judge

I went ahead and bought the upgrade version of HS 13 and found may be a small bug. When I use it to load an obj that I created with HS 13 in a previous session of DS it displays an error message that says I am attempting to load an object not created in HeadShop. If I load the morph anyway it does seem to work OK; BUT the message is a bit disconcerting

info_b3470fa520

Emo Sludge said:

To be honest I can't imagine ever paying even the sale price for what it appears to offer, considering there are already other apps that seem to work better.

In every single one of their promo images you can see misaligned nostrils and areas of hair that didn't blend out properly and one very odd instance of an african face projected onto a white texture map (do they not offer different skin tones?).

It's really bad when the makers of the product can't even reach acceptable results.

Having never used any previous version of HeadShop, am I missing something? I'm geniunely wondering because this seems like it should be a $20 plug-in at full price at best.

I think the misunderstanding is that these images are NOT rendered  but RAW screen captures (notice the DAZ grid behind the promo image). We decided to capture promotional images raw, as they are handed from HeadShop to Studio BEFORE RENDERING. We did this for two reason: because this represents a starting point after which artists would add lights, set up skins and other things that are outside the scope of what we deliver - and because as software developers we don't posses the rending skills that many DAZ artists have.

Worlds_Edge

Thanks Catherine & Info, I will give it a try later today and tomorrow.

Worlds_Edge

info_b3470fa520 said:

Worlds_Edge said:

I can't find any instructions on installation or use.  Can someone point me to them.  It's been a while since I manually installed anything or used the earlier version of Headshop.  Thanks.

Please read README. Has detailed installation instructions (also included in the downloaded zip). .

Thanks a bunch.  Please note that the link to the read me is broken.  I mean in the store/product page.  I was able to grab your attachment above.

RobotHeadArt

I know there is a lot of discussion on the textures, have the morphs that are generated been improved over previous versions of HeadShop or the morph quality is the same?

Emo Sludge

info_b3470fa520 said:

Emo Sludge said:

To be honest I can't imagine ever paying even the sale price for what it appears to offer, considering there are already other apps that seem to work better.

In every single one of their promo images you can see misaligned nostrils and areas of hair that didn't blend out properly and one very odd instance of an african face projected onto a white texture map (do they not offer different skin tones?).

It's really bad when the makers of the product can't even reach acceptable results.

Having never used any previous version of HeadShop, am I missing something? I'm geniunely wondering because this seems like it should be a $20 plug-in at full price at best.

I think the misunderstanding is that these images are NOT rendered  but RAW screen captures (notice the DAZ grid behind the promo image). We decided to capture promotional images raw, as they are handed from HeadShop to Studio BEFORE RENDERING. We did this for two reason: because this represents a starting point after which artists would add lights, set up skins and other things that are outside the scope of what we deliver - and because as software developers we don't posses the rending skills that many DAZ artists have.

I mean, it's quite obvious these aren't rendered. That isn't the issue. You can see multiple instanced where the texture and the morph do not line up. You weren't able to capture a-single transfer where the nostrils (both inside and the outer crevice) are lined up to the texture, and there are some shots that show hair artifacts that haven't blended out. In a promo you typically want to show off the full capabilities of your software. I'm not trying to be rude, this is just the truth. And considering the price point here, you should be able to afford to hire an artist who can show off the capabilities in a way that will be interesting for the end user, even if they are still just viewport screenshots you clearly need someone with a more artistic eye. That said, you've obviously been at this for a while, so you probably know your market better than I do, but for me personally this is not an appealing product based on the presentation. 
 

edit: I just want to quickly add as a piece of advice, you really should hire an artist to work on your advertising for you. I can guarantee that if this is a product that artists can make good work with, the amount of additional revenue you'll make from sales will far exceed the cost of hiring an artist. 

Emo Sludge

daveso said:

Emo Sludge said:

To be honest I can't imagine ever paying even the sale price for what it appears to offer, considering there are already other apps that seem to work better.

In every single one of their promo images you can see misaligned nostrils and areas of hair that didn't blend out properly and one very odd instance of an african face projected onto a white texture map (do they not offer different skin tones?).

It's really bad when the makers of the product can't even reach acceptable results.

Having never used any previous version of HeadShop, am I missing something? I'm geniunely wondering because this seems like it should be a $20 plug-in at full price at best.

what are the better working apps? I need to check them out. thanks

Facegen and face transfer both look better to me, and they both provide demos so I actually know what kind of results I can get 

info_b3470fa520

Emo Sludge said:

daveso said:

 

Facegen and face transfer both look better to me, and they both provide demos so I actually know what kind of results I can get 

Here's a White Paper about the pros and cons of three face software products: https://printahead.net/white-paper-working-difficult-photos-daz-studio/

Emo Sludge

info_b3470fa520 said:

Emo Sludge said:

daveso said:

 

Facegen and face transfer both look better to me, and they both provide demos so I actually know what kind of results I can get 

Here's a White Paper about the pros and cons of three face software products: https://printahead.net/white-paper-working-difficult-photos-daz-studio/

I've seen that, but it doesn't tell you which software achieved which result. It doesn't even tell you which version of Genesis was used. Which one is head shop? It also isn't updated for the most recent version.

It's not very exhaustive either, just based on one photo. If I'm potentially dropping $60+ I would like some ability to try the software a bit (with a watermark on both the mesh and texture like facegen does makes sense), or at least see a good amount of video footage showing off the performance and workflow.

I feel bad because you keep putting me in a position to further bash your product, which I haven't even used. Seriously, you're designing software for artists. Please hire an artist to help you bridge the gap between developer brain and the interests and needs of end users.

Catherine3678ab

Actually going by the text as well as the images, esp. if one has used the other two, it's pretty obvious which programs made which heads.

Emo nobody is forcing you to bash any product sold in any store. You know Daz3D has a 30 day money back guarantee so yes you can try products out first.