Was the V4 Era the Golden Age of Creativity?
pjwhoopie@yandex.com
Posts: 793
I've only been using Daz now for about a year, and am still a super newb... G8 was the "newest" and most refined model in the Daz catalogue so I have predominantly been buying those resources and using that.
But about a month ago I stumbled upon an older V4 set of clothing that kind of “took my breath away”.
It caused me to research the “old” catalog more, and I was quite delighted with a lot of the stuff I found/saw.
Now I understand that Daz has moved forward and improved in its models/textures etc., and when you compare a V4 scene and a G8 Scene, there is a night and day difference (for most renders) and the V4 can look… almost cartoonish.
But,
To me the V4/M4 era shows the PA’s pushing things to their limits and exploring ideas and creativity in really exciting ways.
Where we are now seems to be a movement towards realism, where PAs are trying to make perfect reproductions of “real life” items (suit and ties, or 1870s Victorian Western clothing for ex).
Not trying to start an argument or anything, but you can kind of judge for yourself by going to the shop and filtering for V4 or G8F and then sort by most popular
And, of course, that is just the Daz shop so it leaves out tons of cool stuff done by folks like Aery/Awful Soul etc.
Makes me wish that more PAs would re-visit their back catalog and re-do some of their older items to update them to the “modern” G8 era (while I’ve purchased some converts, it’s a lot of hassle to convert and things like foot position/shoes/helmets don’t always go the way intended).
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Comments
You mean, v3-v4 era creations were more "experimental"?
I think, it's overall much larger question... not just "within daz/poser world". I think 3D art itself shifted many ways through the years.
p.s.
Please be kind to active PA, i'm sure you can find something to appreciate among them as well. However, i can understand your feelings, but i guess it's all subjective tastes also.
And yeah, often "creative" products are at the bottom of "most popular" rating. Because niche... Well, maybe some PA can jump in with this thread and share some experience and musings.
That's why I also still visit other sites selling Genesis 8 content, there are some with really innovative concepts, especially capable new artists frequently do this, as they haven't perfected their concept of "what is the mainstream market looking for and where do I fit in" yet.
Artists and designers need to make money from their work too, and given the following choices of customer reactions:
A: Awesome! I don't know whether I'll ever need something like that, but it looks really cool and it's great they managed to do that.
or
B: Nice work, I think I can use that in my future scenes.
The "nice & useful" reaction will generally be their target audience, since that is the audience actually making the purchase.
Occasionally, they'll still make stuff in that niche "Awesome" category, but usually, they'll try to make it versatile enough or have some additional generic content that without the Awesome features, it'd still be in the "nice & useful". That is why most dForce stuff released nowadays still also (mostly) works as conforming: they know a lot of people don't or rarely use dForce. dForce isn't niche, but it's still just too limited to be of use to a large enough audience
Askerlow
If you read my comment as despairaging to current PA's then you have certainly misread my intent. My bank account certainly knows I support Active PA's... and there are a lots of great G8 assets out there.
Jazz had a golden age... doesn't mean any Post 1930s Jazz muscisians aren't good... Lots of things have a "Golden Age", From Hollywood to... well, even Countries - Japan's Edo period anyone?
So, I am just saying, for fun, "I think the V3/V4 era was Daz's Golden age, change my mind". Its not religion, or politics, just an observation from looking back on the catalog.
I had to say that to prevent further misunderstanding that could or could not happen...
Anyway, i really miss late90s/early00s aesthetics, especially darkside/gothic/horror/cyberpunk ones. Samil_danach was bright example of such during v3-v4.
I agree that the preference for "realism" affected creativity because there's a push for "practicality". (Which gets interpreted as "bland" for some reason.) Also, some cool designs might be too hard to rig in a way that "looks believable", so artists are constantly trying to work around tech limitations. Sonetimea being forced to scrap their original vision. Finally, all of this is hard work, so the PAs are looking to make up for their efforts. Sadly, cool niche items don't sell as well as other types of "common" items.
as someone that started with V3 and has a huge amount of V4 content, I see it differently. The quality we have now is leaps and bounds above most V4 content in general. I do feel there is lass creativity these days because long time PAs are more focused on what sales and less about being creative. It's more of a business to most PAs now than it was back in the V4 days IMO
You mean, in earlier days PA were often "hobbyists" rather than doing a living of 3d?
edit:
Also, i think, there is a dilemma of balance between "generic/universal" and "unique/specific". Universal things can find usage in enormous amount of scenes, while something very focused will only be used from time to time (unless there are ways like kitbashing or smth).
You said the old V4 art was almost cartoonish but I think what was going on is people did a lot more postwork so many renders looked more artistic and stylized and less like real people. Some of the more artistic renders were really at RDNA and Rendo and Daz galleries always bent a little more realistic for some reason, Some people liked to brag “no postwork” while others on other sites where more 2D assets are sold did a lot more postwork and were proud of it and created I believe much more creative art pieces rather than just “renders.” An image of a girl in jeans and a t-shirt can easily be pretty boring at face value. But when people create truly photoreal images of a girl wearing jeans and a T-shirt people ooh and ah about how real it looks and realism has moved into the forefront now. So I think the art and artists have both changed and the PAs are just staying on trend. I do still see a LOT more postwork in Rendo galleries than here though, probably because they sell more 2D assets.
I think iRay really changed everything. And personally, I find it kind of weird to create photoreal fairies. It either looks like a real girl doing cosplay or if a stylized character you get that strange uncanny valley thing. Of course the store still has tons of fantasy clothes but now renders look like creative photos of cosplay or stills from a movie rather than art. So, in a long-winded way, I’m trying to say that I think iRay changed everything and created a demand for ordinary clothes you can buy at the mall to create photoreal renders rather than more stylized art that depends on creative postwork and creative stylized wardrobe.
My biases are against photo realism so I'm not particularly impressed by the obsession with skin pores and micro-reflections. Having said that, improvements to lighting, surfaces, JCMs, hair and cloth dynamics, etc. are improvements no matter what style of image folks aim for because it gives the artist more control.
I would answer the OP 'no' because I don't think artists were more creative in the V4 era. I still like a good NVIATWAS. Artists are finding new and better ways to depict Vicky 8, and she is looking better than ever.
I think you're missing a simple detail. Because v4 and v3 are old, and most stores periodically cull old content that no longer sells the most of the remaining old stuff is the stuff that has consistently sold for nigh a decade. In other words you are comparing everything for g8 vs the stuff that has stood the test of time for v4
Funnily enough the music comparison you made was more apt than you know as a very similar thing happens there.
If you look carefully, not discounting what you're not interested in, you'll likely notice that all eras have good and bad.
Remember, V4 has been around a long time, and has continued to have products released - even today, although not at Daz.
I remember the V4 era as an era of stagnation. Joint bending on figures were horrible at that time and so on V4. So the only real amazing V4 renders I've seen, were all portrais.
Everybody was doing "fairy on a mushroom in a forrest" renders back then. Either in DS or Poser. The release of Genesis should have been the game changer, but it took time until Genesis 3 and IRAY to finally make a huge step foreward.
For me V4 era was an era of huge frustration. I've even started to delete all my content from the pre-Genesis3 era.
V4 and M4 had the longest run of any base figure until the next version. Therefore people could develop for it for many many years, and as such they had to come up with new ideas.
As technology started growing geometrically, the need (yes "need") for new figures that could keep up with the tech grew faster than what could be developed for.
Thankfully this G8 series is having a decently long run, and we are seeing more original and theme specific items appearing for them
Which is why i felt that G1 and G2 were very short-lived, not many things had time to appear within them.
I was just getting into the rendering aspect of 3D CGI back then (the beginning of the V4 days) and it was a very exciting time... The DAZ (and Poser) scene seems less exciting now to me perhaps because it's seems to have gotten a lot more complicated... which is good I suppose.
When I look at threads where someone asks a question about something I think I might need to know someday, I'm often perplexed by the complexity of the solution, or at least the number of things I have to look into to understand what the hell they are talking about.
I think back when I first started, I assumed as things progressed, stuff would get easier... but, it really seems to have gotten somewhat easier, but with more complex problems arising when things go a bit astray.
I think now everyone wants to make Hollywood level images, and back then more people seemed content to work within the limits of the somewhat limited confines of the software.
I think I've said "seems" and "seemed" enough now, so I should go.
Seems like a good idea.
That's why I am craving for new generations of figures. There is always the question, what is in there for improvements. Better joints, more realistic expressions, muscles, soft body dynamics- maybe?
For every generation, I only need a base of things I can greate morphs or mats from and I am not interessted at all in thousends of characters, but I do need a lot of hair and clothes though.
Quite honestly, the 2 years periode from figure generation to figure generation worked perfect for me.
Sometimes i load v3 or v4 with non-conforming clothes, and it's very hard and unclear how to make them work on this or that pose... Yikes!
Are you sure you are seeing it differently?
Hmmm... I agree, technological advancements maybe be a large contributor to PA's changing thier focus from following the flow of their own creative juices, to focusing on what might sell and not recreating the wheel, but making the most realistic wheel ever.
ahhhmmm.... I don't think I am... Your assumption is that I am only comparing things that are available to purchase in the Daz shop, I am only usuing the Daz shop as a reference for others that want to get a quick over view of the topic. Some of the best V4 stuff, in my opinion, ISN"T available anymore (Aery Soul's stuff for example)...
My 2 cents......I think V4 eye structure for eye shapes, was and still is far better than the big eyes genesis figures.
The "quality" may be better but the assortment has gone down, which is somewhat understandable when you should port your selection to new figure with every new generation.
At the time of V3 and V4, the creators were thrilled to have the tools and somewhat realistic figures to create clothing for, and they started creating the kind of clothing they themselves wanted to see on them and lots of different kind of clothing were created, but how many times do you want to make the same clothes over and over again, especially if the market for those particular clothes is small, you got the satisfaction when you created them the first time, when that's done, it's just for the sales... Sales you get from making the skimpiest little bikinis or taking the neckline down below the waterline -> When passion turns into business, it's not fun anymore.
It's the same with vehicles and architecture, when the tools were available, you wanted to create your dream car and mansion and you got them out of your system. 20 years later, those models look quite primitive, but you don't have the passion to go back to them again.
Everthing is relative.
@Rawart is correct that the length of the "V4 Era" by default is the reason for so much content but the render engine tech and the Mill 4 era figures have been eclipsed by every conceivable& objective measure by the Genesis figures of today.
For current poser users I would imagine that the entire period where Daz/Zygote was supplying the figures is probably considered the "Golded Age"..( of Poser) relative to the turmoil that has occured in the poser figure market in the years After genesis broke poser native compatibility
For people most, who started in this Hobby/artistic pursuit etc, with Daz studio and never used poser, V4 is a vestigial relic of a bygone era with ZERO nostalgic value ..a historical footnote..no longer relevant at all today
I would like to add, that V4 was also a bit mind blowing from a point of "squeezing the juice" / "reaching limits".
Imagine going from using Poser 6 with "legacy Poser 4" renderer (on weak PCs in mid-2000s, for example) with early lowres materials, all the way up to (AO)IBL lighting, highres mats, all those SS shaders, Uber etc. etc. It was really an ascension.
It was like fully upgrading your old car, or how videogame engine reaches potential and more through the years.
I never could stand V4 and rarely used her. I didn't like Mike 4 either to be honest (way too beefy). I have 5 times as much V3 stuff as I ever did for V4 ;). I only really started collecting again when the Genesis 2 figures came out, stylized as they are.
Yes, even V4 era was still a time of wonderment, that you could have a 3D human in your computer which you could move, rotate and pose, when previously you had just 2D photomanipulation, eventually the thrill lessened as the renders still looked like something out of cartoon or comic book and getting the clothes to fit on a posed and morphed character being the headache it was.
But still the variety of clothing was good and there are still a lot of good stuff that cannot be found for the Genesis figures and I'm referring to genre and style instead of shaders and such.
I have a lot of nostalgia for V4. A friend of mine from an on-line RPG got me interested in DAZ Studio. It was my first experience creating 3D art. We made images of our RPG characters from storylines we wrote ourselves that were very important to us. I remember it for me and my friends as being a time of great personal creativity, and V3/V4 provided a wonderful outlet for expressing that in a visual manner. It whetted my appetite for a hobby that I've never grown tired of. I still like rendering V3 and V4 in 3Delight just to revisit good memories. I think the creativity of the V3 and V4 era has continued to present day, especially as evidenced in some of the themed bundles that are coming out now and in the sheer multitude of G8 core character bundles available. I think we have amazing PA's and that DAZ still sells amazing products, and 3D art is a medium I hope continues for many years to come. I can't forget to mention the creativity of the users of the 3D content. It's up to us to turn the content we purchase into art and make it our own. And to me I see a lot of creativity in the user galleries. That is my two cents, for what it's worth.
@oso3d wasn't making content in the V4 era, so no.
I do think we saw a different type of 3D art back then.
Nowadays it's all about photorealistic physically based lighting though some still do stylised work.
I feel like I have nothing to bring to the table these days with my renders and attempts to do stuff quite frankly.
I like to think of the V4 era as the '60s. Free love, skimpier outfits, and there were actually several '60's themed characters too!
The Daz3D and Poser community is more 'proper' now, and more offended by things like nekkid or partially nekkid characters. Not to say that we still don't have skimpwear for current gen figures, but most of that has moved on to other stores...
On a more serious note...
Skimpwear aside, there are some really nice looking outfits and props from the V4 days, and Genesis 8 era PAs are finally exploring some of those themes a bit more at least. Sure, the V4 outfits bend weird sometimes, due to their 'simpler' construction, but some are quite stunning nonetheless.
The V4 era was before my time (with 3D rendering at least), but I'm stubbornly trying to use some of that V4 era stuff on my Genesis 3 characters. There are some really creative outfits from those days that I often find uses for. Sure, the skill level put into textures and such these days is higher in a number of cases than it was back then, but you do have to admire the creativity of people back then.
Thank goodness for Iray shaders at least! Some outfits can look rather stylin' with the newer shaders in place of some of the old texture maps.
It'd be cool if someone would create 'smart content metadata' for the V4 era stuff and share it with the community. Sure, people can do that themselves, but finding the time is the trick. Especially if new items are hitting your library weekly or daily... That good samaritan would save hundreds if not thousands of man hours by their humble gesture!
I wouldn't confuse the ideas creativity with content and creativity with artistry. Some of the best artworks with limited Poser abilities and content from 20 years ago still hold their own against the latest DS artworks.
I agree with the proposition the previous era of "less realistic content" and renderers (no dForce or Iray) forced people to be more creative in the ways they used it to make it look good/better in renders. I remember back in the old days of Posette having to arm-wrestle Poser stuff using Metasequoia to get stuff to look acceptable. And setting up 30+ light sets to imitate GI. No need for that anymore and I'm glad for that.
IMHO, content-wise, today's offerings are just as creative as they were back in the V4 era. Artistic-merit-wise.... well just look at the gallery. Tools are only as good as the person using them.