So Let's Talk About Money...
Subtropic Pixel
Posts: 2,388
The PC+ thread elsewhere here got me to thinking about the ability (or lack thereof) of content designers/creators to make money in so many corners of art.
Never before in the history of human beings has there been such a proliferation of inexpensive and accessible tools with which we can create software, plugins, or content. We can write entire symphonies without using a single physical violin or tuning fork. We can create entire worlds without terraforming so much as a backyard garden or even the smallest potted plant!
But more and more often, in these forums and others, I am hearing the complaint that nobody can make any sustainable and/or meaningful money at any of it, not to mention being able to support a family of hungry humans, what with their needs for clothing and shelter too.
Technically speaking, we are truly empowered; and I would argue moreso than at any other time in history. We have armies of modellers. Legions of musicians. Fathoms of knowledge of everything from light to sound waves and even the secrets of our own DNA. Entire continents of painters, sculptors, web or print designers, photographers, programmers, and more.
But everybody wants their dollar's worth of content and only wants to pay a dime for it, so I have maintained my creative activities as hobbies only. I enjoy them. But beyond that, I'm having trouble seeing any real way to monetize any creative endeavors.
In the last year or so I've seen numerous threads here in the Commons alone from people who just can't make a living; just can't get the next rent payment made. So mental notes taken, I firmly stay in my more-than-full-time job, with the full understanding that my development as an artist will always be partly limited by my limited free time. It is what it is, and I know myself well enough to know that I would be very unhappy trying to be a starving artist. Maybe more unhappy than the happiness coming from the "artist" part of that deal.
I suppose my biggest fear (or one of them) is that we are quickly becoming an "Open Source Society," where everybody is expecting "the other guy" to give discount or gratis.
Or maybe it's just the laws of supply and demand at work, and it's no more complicated than that?
My logic above probably isn't well formed or well explained, and I apologize for that. I am more interested in what you think than I am in coming up with my own answers here.
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Comments
The 3D-model content market has some unique aspects, and some aspects it shares with other IP markets.
Here's a report of a panel discussion about the UK digital music market (warning: some language is NSFW): http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/10/25/battle_of_ideas_music_debate/
Many good points are made in there that apply here, including some ideas about how the old "contract" model was in some ways better and in other ways worse than the current "broker" model for both getting creative works out to the public and supporting the creators. Could you imagine part of DAZ3D's cut of the sales of items from Stonemason, Thorne, Jack Tomalin, and other popular PAs going to support the new creators in the store? That's what used to happen with music when it was on 45s and LPs - profits from Frank Sinatra and The Beatles and other extremely-popular acts subsidized all the one-hit wonders. Could that be done again? (Probably not, at least not in the exact same way - but it's worth considering.)
I don't think any of the arts has traditionally been seen as a way to make money, and are usually pursued more for the love of it . I think to assume that you can earn a decen living right off the bat would be naieve. But there are plenty of people out there who do enough earn a living from it - but it doesn't happen overnight, and they have put a lot of time and effort into their craft. Many do start out doing it as hobby in their spare time and then progressing to get known enough to be able to do it full time. I would guess that the majority of the PAs here who do make a living full-time started out that way.
I agree we are probably more empowered now than ever before to be able to be creative, or more rather a greater range of people are so empowered than ever before.
[quoteI suppose my biggest fear (or one of them) is that we are quickly becoming an “Open Source Society,” where everybody is expecting “the other guy” to give discount or gratis. ]
I think the web does give that feeling - because what we consume on it is not tangible we are less likely to want to part money with it. But that in itself has led to , and will continue to I believe, lead to new types of business models.
Just my twopence worth:)
The longer something takes to create, the bigger the asking price should be in general. But the real world is much more complex than that. Everyone wants something for nothing, and when we do have to pay we'd all like to pay as little as possible. It's why some people won't buy unless theres a sale on, it's why many lament the passing of the classic (unsustainable) Platinum Club with its $1.99 items.
But the problem here is that if the artist isn't earning enough from their work, they'll make less of that work. The abundance of skimpy outfits for the ladies is evidence that people's spending habits tend to gravitate towards women wearing very little (also arguably evidence that the majority of buyers are male). If they sell an item cheaply, they need to make more sales on that item to cover their costs which can be a risky gamble. Getting few sales with higher asking prices can sometimes be favorable to getting more sales with small asking prices.
So, when something sells more we get more of that type of content. It's only logical from a seller's point of view to create items which people want to buy. If something sells like hotcakes, it might be worth making either an add-on for that item, or a matching set.
This is also why I'd argue it's hard to get into the content creation business. You need to find out what people really want, and asking will only get you a fraction of the total numbers. People will say on the forums that they want X product or Y product, even though sales figures prove otherwise. We sadly account for only a small number of the total buyers, many of whom never visit the forums. So, are we the voice of the buyers? To a degree, sure, but we are not the majority so it's going to be hard to influence a decision when people's livelihoods rely on us
This is the reason I've never tried to get into becoming a PA. I'd love to do it, but I don't think I would be able to find my niche. Making youth outfits sounds like a great idea on paper, but the reality is that kids stuff generally doesn't sell too well by all accounts. Given that the majority of artists use a lot of nudity and adult oriented works, it's not hard to see why it's going to exclude the use of child figures.
So mostly I work for my own enjoyment, and create items which I'll use personally. I did release a few simple items on ShareCG, but the stuff I spend the most time on I've been holding back in the hopes that one day I might find a market for them. Not sure if I'll ever be brave enough to take that first step, but the thought lingers on.
I think you place too much importance on the software. It's true that it's technically easier to create a 3d model than ever before, but that doesn't mean everyone can do it. First of all, the technical requirements are far higher today than they were 10 years ago. No one today would pay $40 for a texture set or a dodgy out-of-proportion environment. Models now have to be extremely good quality to even be considered for acceptance by DAZ. Secondly, actually building the model is (by my reckoning) only about 10% of the work. Rigging, morphs, textures, presets, packaging & promos are far more complex and time-consuming than modelling. And thirdly, (and most importantly), no software can tell you what to make or how it will sell. That's still down to human creativity with a bit of experience and some guesswork.
I've always maintained that the Number One requirement for any successful vendor is stamina. Sure, Joe/sephine Soap can come up with a good idea for a product - but can he/she keep on coming up with a new idea once a month or several times a year? In order to make any money at this game, you need a fairly large back-catalog, and that only comes with time. If you can't keep thinking up new ideas for products for at least the first few years of your working life, you'll never get beyond pin money.
I'm all for technical advances, but in the end, they don't solve the most common problems that confront any vendor. As a matter of fact, I haven't upgraded my modelling program in 5 years because it offers nothing dramatically new.
mac
PS For anyone who's sorry they can't be a PA - don't be! You may think you're missing out, but take it from me, 3d as a hobby is 1000 times more enjoyable than 3d as a job. I haven't done a single render for pure pleasure in the last 5 years! Strictly tests and promos! Aaargh!
PPS Don't take this post as a complaint. I'd rather be a PA than working in an office or digging ditches.
This is turning out to be a very interesting and informative thread. Thank you all for your contributions. Your various observations have been well-considered and are well-presented.
I think there is a lifespan of usefulness for certain kinds of models.
Clothing for example, can fall out of fashion, and look strange unless you are doing a retro piece. Figures have their time span as well, although some people will continue to use older models exclusively, some want the latest figures and rigging.
Pricing for virtual content can get high, especially on newer and in some cases older content.
I honestly no longer buy except if something is on sale. Non-sale prices are too high for me at DAZ.
Another reason I have cut back on buying new items is the fact that if I had waited (in a couple of cases less than a year), I could have picked up the same item for substantially less than what I did pay for it. I'm not talking about Fast Grab of even a Flash Sale.
Now when new items come out, if it is not something I will need in the near future, I start to wonder how soon after it's initial 60 days in the store will it go on sale cheap.
Maybe that makes me a bad customer. Maybe it doesn't. I'm not asking for something for nothing because I know nothing is ever really free.
I think it doesn't make you a bad customer - nowadays, stores want you to buy items on sale. That's bad news for the creators, but it works well for the vendors.
http://nymag.com/nymetro/shopping/sales/salesguide/15568/index1.html
I hesitated to reply to this thread because I don't know what I can say that hasn't been said already. HeraldOfFire made a good point about creating content based on what genuinely sells rather than what people seem to ask for. I recently put out a modest outfit, after reading that there is too much skimpwear and not enough practical, everyday clothing. I'm sure it won't surprise any of you that it was not a successful product when compared to more revealing outfits. I made (just barely) the minimum that I thought would be acceptable to me, even though it took me nearly a month to complete the outfit. For this reason, I will probably not make anything similar until there is a theme that calls for it. Like when Teen Josie came out... obviously more modest clothing was preferable for her.
As for making a living with content creation... a great many of us do make a living, but most of the PA's I talk to have "day jobs" because this business is fickle at best, and unless you have a long established reputation and killer talent (like the names mentioned in earlier posts), it can take quite a lot of time and a buildup of back catalog items to make any money. As it is now, I earn as much a month as I did at my maintenance job, which wore me out quite frankly. Of course, new releases and products that just seemed to hit a gold streak help quite a bit, but for the month to month periods, it is just average income.
I worked 40 hours a week at the maintenance job, but I work about 80 or more hours doing this. From the moment I wake, until I force myself to bed in the wee hours of the night, I am sitting in front of my computer working out the product. As McLean said, the modeling is the easy part. Getting things rigged properly, putting in the morphs for the ever-growing list of figures, making textures that look good close up as well as at a distance, making separate Poser companion materials, etc. then packaging it, making thumbnails, rendering promos that catch the eye and that DAZ finds compelling, that is all a huge part of the work. Then, after submitting it, you have several different steps the product goes through with QA that can come back to you for corrections, re-rendering, whatever. You have to be very patient and stay confident in your work, because things that get cranked out in a week are just not going to make the cut, and even if they did get through the process, your customers are likely to know that it was rushed and the quality might not be there. Or, it will be a modest little outfit with cute shoes and fabulous jewelry and people will just say, "meh." Then sometimes you spend a couple of weeks on a project only to find out someone else has beat you to it.
I'm not discouraging anyone from pursuing it if you think you want to... but you have to do it more for the enjoyment of seeing someone use your piece in a render than for the profit. You have to really enjoy doing it, that's what I'm trying to say. And, like McLean, the hobby part of it goes right out the window. I spend as much as the rest of you on content because I need it for promos, and yet I've done maybe three fun, personal renders in the last year since I started doing this for a living.
@Slosh
Is the romper the outfit you are talking about? I somehow missed it. It might have got lost in a sea of new releases. I just bought it.
@HeraldofFire
In Econ101 I learned that the price is not determine by how much work or resources went to produce something. Price is determined by how much people are willing to pay. Some products and services fall into the a no-go zone. The price people are willing to pay is much lower than it takes to produce or encourage production. Middle class people used to have servants. Few people are willing to pay $30,000 a year +lodging for a chauffeur anymore. But no-one is going to take the job for less. Result - few chauffeurs.
Since I joined DAZ I have been worried that the effort at producing the models would outstrip what people are willing to pay.
It seems that I am more willing to pay, because I use the renders in commercial projects.
First, I'm ripping my heart off of my sleeve and locking it away in a lead lined safe to try to post without emotion. :)
Content producers are 'artist', too. (or at least a wannabe artist in my case... the jury is out)
Who is that jury? The DAZ customers. How do they vote? By buying or not buying your product(s).
I have enjoyed the start of this thread, but have not enjoyed where it has gone. Why? Well, each of our products is basically released to the 'art critics'. Yes, you get to be a genuine critic by voting yes with a purchase or no by not purchasing. For PAs, that process comes with both pains and jubilation depending on your votes.
The PAs that I have become friends with all seem to care a great deal about their creations. It is that 'care' that leads to emotional responses. When we make something, we know pretty quickly if you like it or not by our sales. When posts are made to the forums, with regards to the cost of the products being too high, that is basically the same as saying, "you are not worth it". I think most of us take that personally. How would you feel if your boss gives you a pay lower? Remember, it is not DAZ you are ultimately talking to, but to the creators of the products. Yes, like at the first of this thread, we need some pats on our backs and thank you for that! Above this post, well, I'll leave my heart in the safe, but I still hear "you are not worth it".
As for the tech in this world. Yes! It is improving in leaps and bounds! It's great. We have better tools, we can do the same modeling faster. But that tech is a double edged sword. The consumer also has better and faster computers and softwares and wants better models. We can't continue doing those "same models". The speed gains seem to be offset by the increase in product quality. HD is perhaps the best example of this. I'm looking forward to even faster computers and being able to do even more detailed work with even better software. :) It's a great time to be alive!
i have one painting on my wall, from the starving artist's warehouse. not as an investment, because it's pretty and i like to look at it.
Please do not take it that way, because that is incorrect. Most of us cannot afford to buy everything we like, and thus must avoid purchasing items we like; that does not me we do not like them.
Nor does choosing one product over another within our budgets necessarily indicate that we believe one thing is better than another. I may look at some amazing fantastic detailed super-death orbital stealth ninja item and say "holy (*&#$% that's the coolest thing I've ever seen in my life, that would make the best primary subject matter for a render ever", but all my art can't just be this same item repeated so I might only use it a few times, then I'll look at a boring rock and think "hey, I'll probably use that rock off in the background in at least 50 renders in my lifetime", and I'll buy the rock. It's not because I think the rock even comes close to being as neat; it's because it will be more useful within my limited budget. I'll still be drooling over the unpurchased item long after I've forgotten the purchased rock even exists. (nothing wrong with rocks; just trying to provide a made-up but helpful example.) Similarly, I might see really cool items but I don't to create the kinds of art they would work best in, thus I won't purchase them; not because I don't appreciate the quality or have the interest, but just because it's not what I wish to incorporate into my own art.
Somebody else mentioned, and I agree with this, that we probably need to find more customers. I have no idea how many people are out there buying things, however with sufficient volume, the prices we see in the store shouldn't be an issue. If you make $3 on something and sell 4 of each product, clearly that's not going to pay your bills. However if you can sell a hundred thousand of each product, you'll be rich. Maybe there aren't a hundred thousand customers out there. But I'd be willing to bet that there are more people who have never even heard of 3D art who are potential customers but don't know it; the secret is finding them. Or maybe not, maybe there are only 4, in which case yeah, people are really going to have to find something else to do. :-) I'm not saying it will happen, nor that I expect it to; just pointing out that the potential could be there, and trying to find them and draw them in might be better in the long run then spending that time struggling to guess what the current more limited range of customers are going to purchase a few of.
I don't take it personally at all. Mainly because I know full well that most users doesn't really know how much work goes into making the average product, therefore it's difficult for them to look at it objectively. Customers judge a product in several ways - how good it looks, how useful it will be, how much it costs, and the amount of cash they have available. Nothing wrong with that. I do the same when I shop for dvds or any other stuff I spend spare cash on.
This isn't a war or a con game. Customers need PAs to supply new products. PAs need customers to buy them. We're inter-dependent. Each PA decides what they can justify spending the time to make and hopes it will sell. Each customer tries to get the best deal they can for their money. It's not a question of things being worth the money or not. It's what you can afford on your budget.
mac
I understand that completely. I can't afford a Lamborghini, but I have no facts to back up telling them that their cars cost too much. ;) I've been self employed for about 35 years. I know I have to keep a professional attitude in front of personal feelings. However, the personal side creeps in. I guess I'd need to morph myself into a zombie to get rid of that side. :) I really don't want to be or become a zombie.
There's an interesting letter which Amazon is currently circulating, in reagrds to e-books. http://www.readersunited.com/
The points sound familiar.
Quoted for strong agreement.
And here's what I think about the original post, as one who does make a good living at this and only this:
Artists are not more special than other people. Art is not magic. The market doesn't behave differently toward art than toward any other product. Any person can have a great idea; but most people can't do the work to make it happen in a way that's aesthetically appealing to other people. Getting to the point where you can is as much technique as it is any mythical idea of "inborn talent." I would argue more, but that's because I'm not a genius in the inborn talent department to start with.
And you know what? I don't mind. I don't have to believe I'm doing something Important with my art to enjoy working as an artist. I just enjoy the creative freedom I have to make what I want to make; and if I have to make a couple of things I'm less excited about to support making something I love, that's fine, too. Artists have always done that; and I'm living a dream I didn't even know I had until I saw it happen.
If a person can't handle the rejection inherent in having something they've poured their art into fail commercially, that person is not ready to be an artist, because those two things go together, essentially and permanently. We're going to have that experience again and again in between the things that succeed. I didn't want to hear that when I was starting out, but it's true.
In case you're referring to something I said, let me deal with this right now.
Whether people buy your art or not is not a value judgement on the QUALITY of your work. The money may just not be there.
There are plenty of products I would buy IF the money was there. It just ain't.
It costs me far more to get a client now. Far more to service the client. AND these business people have more money than God, but they want to pay me 10 cents on the dollar for my work. I'm getting $100 for $1000 worth of work.
Content artists ARE artists too. I never said (nor have I heard anyone else say otherwise). Artists money is down everywhere. If WE don't have the money, then how are we going to pay YOU?
ARTISTS ARE WORTH IT.
P.S. Go ahead post with emotion. It's more honest.
i received the amazon letter through kindle newsletter. i emailed kindle support if the letter was legitimate. it was like weird.
sigh
what is money? what color is it? what does it smell like?
Total tangent but...
Studies have generally shown that men like looking at women. But... women like looking at women more than men do. Albeit for different reasons...
As a general 'generic trend', women tend to look at sexualized women and idealize a desire to have a certain body image. Men look at the same thing and feel a pleasurable response, even when not thinking of the woman sexually.
Look into magazines and websites that cater to women - and the visuals are often just as sensually intense as a men's "monster car and bikini girl" magazine... though it is also very easy to find female nudes in women's magazines and webspaces - and not just in health and soap adverts.
That said I don't know who buys more here. I do know that artforms like this give men a "safe space" to play "barbie" that was not available in childhood in the way we define men's roles. About the only female 'toy figurine' men of my generation got to play with was a star wars action figure, or maybe a smurfette. Whereas my female peers had a whole host of 'dolls' of both sexes.
And as silly as that may sound, I think such play is basic to human nature - and the lack of it may be why many men 'objectify' women...
This is a pretty small community- and to be quite honest, as much as I love PA's, I don't consider it my job to support anyone here. Perhaps if I were Donald Trump I would personally fund a line of M6 clothing, models, and a line of skimpless wear for women, and a whole lot of less Caucasian characters. But sadly, I do not have unlimited funds.=-)
I buy what interests me, what I can use, and things on impulse. If it isn't affordable to me, based on what I'm going to use it for, I pass on it. That isn't personal, or a judge on how well-done the object in question is.
@Slosh:
I am sorry your outfit wasn't a success. I bought it, and it is great with lovely accessories and attention to detail.
Please do not take it that way, because that is incorrect. Most of us cannot afford to buy everything we like, and thus must avoid purchasing items we like; that does not me we do not like them.
Exactly that. Just this morning I cur a few items out of my shopping cart because I had to balance between the ones I wanted, the ones I needed, and the ones that would trigger the 'sale bonus' for the ones I needed...
So two or three PAs lost a sale to me, because I had to balance the cart "just right"... They went back into my wishlist.
And I have been buying a LOT recently, justifying it as 'catching up' on being away for a decade. So that's likely to scale back soon.
It doesn't mean I'm commenting on the quality.
I used to jump on the skimpy outfits a lot, BTW. On coming back I am trying hard to make sure every purchase is one I can justify at least 3 or 4 mental concepts for before I grab it... because my runtime is also FULL of stuff that looked really cool at the time, but had all of one use...
- But I'm against trend there. Most people will favor the skimp, until something forces them to start thinking about what they grab from a longer term POV.
This is a great thread. I liked what the OP had to say and of course Mac's wisdom and others too!
Are you talking about the romper? I bought it and like it. I'm really sorry that you are discouraged from making more clothing like that. I was very impressed by the number of supported morphs and all the useful accessories. When I saw that you supported the Growing Up morph, that was the clincher for me. I don't remember seeing any other vendor going that far to please customers. I certainly wish you the best on your future projects. I'll probably buy them, too, as long as you don't go in the skimpware direction.
Are you talking about the romper? I bought it and like it. I'm really sorry that you are discouraged from making more clothing like that. I was very impressed by the number of supported morphs and all the useful accessories. When I saw that you supported the Growing Up morph, that was the clincher for me. I don't remember seeing any other vendor going that far to please customers. I certainly wish you the best on your future projects. I'll probably buy them, too, as long as you don't go in the skimpware direction.
The trouble is that the forum is 90 degrees off from the market on the issue of clothes and what they should look like. Even if 20 people on the forum say they like something - and you're luck to hear from that many ever, really - you need 100+ to buy the product in its release period, and most of those are not on the forum at all. The silent majority just really loves skimpier clothes. (Both sexes, in my opinion. I know my male underwear and swimwear have sure done well.)
I buy men's swim garments and underwear not because they are skimpy, but because I don't have much variety in the basics for men and may need to render someone in a swimsuit or shorts.
I feel bad now that I might have mis-communicated a few points regarding the romper I made. It made the minimum that I thought would make me feel okay about the time I spent on it, so I don't consider it a failure, unless I hold it against the success of a skimpier outfit. I won't do that, though, since it is apples and oranges. As for making modest outfits again... oh yes, I fully intend to do that. You may see me alternate between styles as the mood, inspiration, or current figure requires. I have started, for example, a retro one piece jumpsuit with bell-bottoms, yet has a very open neckline to show plenty of cleavage. I have also started some sci-fi inspired overalls, which will not be sexy or revealing, but more practical. I don't mind sharing this info, since they are each in the earliest stages of construction and may well be far enough off that you will forget I mentioned them, lol.
But, let me comment then on the OP's original intent for the thread, which I completely misunderstood on first reading, but now see what he intended to say. It is true, artists who need to buy content (art) to do their work (more art) are making less because the clients are expecting more stuff for less cost. It's all so cyclical. I try very hard to keep my prices low... more in the range of what I would like to pay, but when customers are clever enough to wait for the deep discounts, I know that my income is going to be much lower than what I thought when I set the price. I haven't reached a point where I am padding prices to compensate for that, nor do I ever hope to need to do that. It's not something I've discussed with anyone, but I always hoped that, if you the customer like my product and think I have been fair about pricing it, then I'm going to get the volume of sales I need to justify the time put into the product. As long as this philosophy holds up, I will be able to keep my prices low.
I'm just happy to finally being doing something I really enjoy and actually pay my rent with it, instead of the sweaty jobs I've had all my life. Nothing wrong with sweaty jobs, I'm just happier doing this one :) I won't get rich doing this, but then I've never been more than paycheck to paycheck, so it's nothing new. Just want to eat and have a place to sleep and do my 3d stuff :)
I thought I would chime in, since I myself struggle everyday with how I can make a career out of my passion for art. I recently completed a short film, which cost me a considerable amount of money that I didn't exactly have hidden in a mattress. It also has taken 8 months of time in terms of opportunity costs. Going into this short film I was well aware that the odds of actually making money are slim to none. But the chance to put something creative in the world for others to hopefully enjoy, is for me very worth it.
Now, with regards to the original concerns brought up in this thread I would like to give people an analogy. Once upon a time, people went around their local communities to search for work. This was true even for artists. Art shows, fairs, markets, and local businesses were all great places to start in your quest to get work as a freelance artist. It is not just simply the software and the tools that have changed things. It is also the internet itself. Imagine for a moment the competition one faced when they put in a job application at their local McDonald's. Basically your competition was just the rest of the people in the immediate vicinity. So your chances were pretty good. But what if you went to McDonald's to apply for a job and there were suddenly 100 thousand applicants standing in line. How good do you feel about your chances now? This is exactly the problem most of us are facing with digital art, music and film. The endless sea of work on the internet makes it extremely difficult to stand out in such a big crowd.
So back to my original point. Don't do things in the arts, music, film, etc. because you are thinking you will somehow discover the right tool or magic formula to become financially successful or have some kind of competitive edge that no one else has. Just do what you love until you are so darn good that people will be willing to pay you for it. Or don't quit your day job and just have fun putting creative stuff into the world for even one person to appreciate.