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If you all don't mind me asking...
What's considered a successful product run in terms of total units sold during it's initial 1 or 2 month release?
A. 100 sold
B. 1000 sold
C. 10,000 Sold
Do product sells volume usually fall within the A range, and Is C Range totally unrealistic?
I know total sells would be effected by the product price but assuming you have an awesome product and you're the only game in town and selling for a fair price. What are highly popular item sell numbers?
This is a very small market and the average number of sales for a 'successful' product used to be 100. That figure was rather arbitary, based on DAZ's knowledge of total PA sales, but it gave PAs an idea of what to aim for. Over the last few years, DAZ have mentioned 150 - 200 as a more realistic figure, but again, it's based on fairly general trends.
Every PA makes different products and it's hard to define a set number for everyone. Some PAs make 90% of their sales during the intro period, and a lot of items, (clothing, for example), go out of fashion fairly quickly, so they don't sell well in the long term. That means those PAs have to rely on good sales inthe first few weeks, and continually make new products, or revise the older products for new figures.
I make props and architectural items and I find that almost every product I make sells for years and years. So I'm in it for the long term and I price everything accordingly - ie. I keep the prices low so people will still find them attractive 10 years later (and I also update older products frequently). I still get good sales on release, with the added bonus of a continual income from my catalog.
I've been at DAZ for 13 years now, and to be honest, I've never met anyone yet who can predict a product's success - and that includes DAZ themselves. I've made products I thought would be raving successes and the sales were average. I've made other products I thought were ordinary, and they turned out be great sellers. No one knows.
The only thing numbers really tell us is how small this market is. If I made an app for the iPhone and sold it at 50c, I might sell 10,000 copies. I could build the Taj Mahal and sell it for 50c here at DAZ, but I can guarantee I'd never sell 10,000.
mac
I honestly believe money if any is to be made
Would be from producing something with DAZ content eg a book cover, illustrations or advertisements
Those are the people who derive an income from this hobby
I'll interject just for a moment, then I'll go back to "lurk mode" because this conversation really needs no direction from me.
Like others here, I too play the cart vs. wishlist roulette wheel to find a not-sad balance between desires, needs, and budget. Just because I don't buy something, that's not (never ever has been) a judgement on your work or on you as a person. It's not personal in the least and I hope nobody feels that way. From my heart, I wish I could buy from everybody!
And a heartfelt thank you goes to the PAs who have added their thoughts here, and especially for sharing their real-life experiences and observations. I have thought about doing what you do, and your input is valuable to me on so many levels...mere words can't express my gratitude nearly well enough!
Someone earlier mentioned the global competition and the effect it's had on freelancers' earnings. I have a few thoughts/hypotheses on the subject.
Technology has definitely lowered the barrier to production. Look at photography. It was certainly a much more expensive hobby back in the days of film. And when you had to pay for every shot to be developed, it required quite a commitment of time and money to gain the skill you needed to use the old analog equipment. Now, you can shoot a thousand pics and choose the one of them that -- by mere chance (plus the magic of modern digital processing) -- is fairly decent. Throw away the other 999. It's no loss at all.
So there are a lot more people in the game, in some industries, than there ever were in the past.
I don't think global competition is affecting content creators the same way. It is still a very high skilled trade. Not everyone can do it, and it takes a level of determination and commitment just to learn how to start.
But the art the customers are trying to sell does have to compete -- with every teenager with some serious skill, a pencil, and internet access. There's no special market for "digital renders". The same people who will buy a render for their book cover would also buy a photograph or a painting or even, in some cases, a pencil sketch.
So while photographers are bemoaning the rise of stock photography sites which have devalued their art, digital artits are suffering similarly. And as a result, they can't afford to pay professional prices for 3d content, even though the content creators clearly deserve it.
Unfortunately, widening the market for 3d content is going to be an uphill battle. As more and more people trade in their desktops for tablets and other small mobile computers, that's fewer and fewer people who can use the software in its current form.
Every time I read about how "the desktop is doomed", I wonder what will happen to our hobby? Will we eventually get priced out of it -- not by the cost of content or software -- but by the cost of the hardware to run it?
Microsoft already doing a pretty good job of killing it in future computers with Windows 8
I'm going to trout off here and hope I don't get banned (lol)!
I've been a musician for over 35 years now.. been in garage bands, did some studio work, and have tried the indie thing several times, and I've watched the business evolve.. and it's a complex state of affairs, just like I imagine it is for content creators. Issues I see:
PERCEIVED VALUE: At one time, music was considered valuable and unique. Coughing up cash for a 45, then an LP, then a cassette, then CDs (we'll ignore 8-tracks) was an accepted thing, you paid your money for the tunes you wanted. And while the democratization of music has been a wonderful thing for some, music went from a valuable item to a commodity.. you can jump online and get thousands of tunes, free, from no-names that are actually listenable.. but there's a lot of throwaways in there, too. Combined with a "I can get this freebie that's good enough, why should I pay for something?" mentality that I see, it makes it hard to move product.
NOISE LEVEL: This isn't so much an issue for content creators, I think, but for musicians it is. Literally tens of thousands of people put out music on the Web on a regular basis. New names appear daily, old ones vanish (sometimes within a few days). It's impossible to easily separate the good from the bad, and nobody wants to pay someone enough to do it for them. Even if you kick butt and take names, if nobody can find you in the eternal hurricane of dreck flying around, nobody will buy your stuff.
MARKET SIZE: Things like Daz Studio have greatly increased the market for 3D content, but it's still a very small market compared to music consumers or many others. It's easy to hit a saturation point where everyone who is going to buy your product, has.. and those counts will surely be small. The market will only grow so far, as not everyone is interested in 3D art creation or has the time or money to invest in it. Speaking of investment..
RETURN ON INVESTMENT: If someone spends, say, 80 hours on a model.. sells it for $14.95, and pushes 200 sales.. that's $37-something an hour.. which isn't bad, until you consider taxes, and overhead expenses.. and the fact that the income doesn't come IN all at once, reducing your effective income dramatically as the "lag time" counts against that hourly rate. If not enough people buy it, fast enough, you could end up earning a few bucks an hour overall. DS is free, SOME modeling tools are free, but time is not.. and watching you sell 2-3 copies of your hard-made work a week isn't motivating, except to make you consider a real "day gig". It takes me about 2-3 WEEKS to put out a reasonable ambient tune, and I might (if I'm lucky) sell 4-5 copies in 3 months (because I don't crank out throwaway dance music). That's not going to cover one meal, much less rent!
So I can see how it would be extremely difficult to sell content as a full-time job/only income source. You'd need to either have a very high perceived value so you can price your products higher, or be able to crank out something sellable in a couple of days.. I don't really see any other ways to pull it off. :down:
Anyway, rant over, back to rendering pin-ups..!
Interesting thread...
I'm not going to try to multi-quote 3 pages worth but..
I don't do this because it's profitable, I could make more money per hour as a retail clerk (and get benefits!) I do it because it's what I love to do, and I would hate my life if I didn't do it.
I work about 60-70 hours a week normally to support my family (me, my husband, our 2 cats, and a dragon.) It's gotten a lot better, I started doing this full time about a year and a half ago and the first year I was working easily 100 hours a week. I'm still releasing about the same amount but I've gotten a lot faster. I've been a PA for a >long< while, like 8 or so years now? I started out at Poser Pros and moved over here a little before they were bought out by Daz.
It's hard work.. the modeling is the fun and easy part, it's all the other stuff that takes forever. I did my first real artistic render I've done in a reallllly long time day before yesterday.
I've been around for a long time and I'm known for producing products that are high quality in the technical area (morphs, surfaces, both poser & ds compatibility, etc.) I love modeling but organic shapes (that includes most clothing) are still a bit of a struggle for how my mind works. I don't think I have an exceptionally high perceived value, I mean I'm not Stonemason or AS (whatever that stands for this year, I lost track) I'm more middle of the road here.
I do have to release a couple products a month to stay afloat, but it's not as bad as a couple days. I don't think it's honestly possible to produce a Daz quality product in that time.. just making promos and writing all the text for the store page usually take me at least a day and a half.
This line of thinking is wrong headed.
NO one wants to get something for nothing.
The problem many artists face is there is no money to actually PAY for items sold here.
I had a business once and our focus was on artists (musicians, writers, filmmakers, etc) but we couldn't survive. Why? Because even though the artists WANTED to pay us well for our work, they were BROKE.
If they didn't have the money how could THEY pay US?
Same thing here. PC Club $1.99 unsutainable? I strongly disagree. (This statement in no way accuses anyone at Daz of lying).
Artists pay is shrinking. Clients are paying 10 cents on the dollar for work these days. It's worse than it's ever been.
I'm happy to pay whatever price. But who's going to pay ME?
I agree.
The place where 3D content creators are facing pain is, as you said, It's is hard for Digital/Graphic designers to keep up with the prices. This is also caused by the fact business owners are making it harder to actually GET their business. They were never very fast about signing on the dotted line, now they are even slower. To add insult to injury they don't want to PAY for darn near anything.
Also, they are taking more and more mundane forms of design these days. Today, I (and many artists) can produce videos, graphic designs at a very high level of quality, many businesses just want "plain jane" designs. I can't charge a couple grand for some rubbish that could just as well be made on Microsoft Word.
Those that DO want more complex work often make final decisions "by committee" and anyone who has ever worked with clients that worked in such a manner have their own horror stories.
To clarify my earlier post... Regarding how a product sells. That can be fickle, but I take that good or bad as the real comment on my work. Do poor sales bother me? Well, yes, but I get over that. I obviously remember the outcome and base my work on that.
What is disheartening to me are comments that products in the store are priced too high or I'll wait for a sale. Yes, the world operates on 'Sales' everywhere. I owned a custom cabinet shop and chuckled at the 'home store' ads for 50% or more off on cabinets. Well, 50% off of what? Looking into that, I found that the MSRP was a 400% markup over wholesale. So 50% off was still a 100% profit for those stores. The discount off MSRP was only a perceived value.
I, like Slosh, have not adjusted my pricing based on the sales/discounts, but if everyone only buys things when they are on sale, I would need to mark up prices to accommodate the discount. If you only buy things when they are on sale, it might be a good idea to keep that quiet so others don't do the same thing?
I do have to make products that sell good. I do some that I know up front will not pay for themselves. To me, you the users need those to have a complete selection of products. I view those as supporting the community. Vendor and customer is a two way street. Back to the cabinet business, I had a vendor that wanted to sell me euro hinges. I did use them for a very short while, but they didn't stock a blind corner hinge. Why? They didn't sell good. Well, a kitchen might only need one or two pairs of these at most. I went back to my previous supplier.
Skimp wear for females is a hot portion of this market. I have done one female product (and an add on) and one male product in that realm... although neither are really all that skimpy. So, to meet bills, I need to produce things like that (and I rather enjoy it). If I'm going to do things that I know won't sell well, I have to have something else paying those bills. Saying there is too much skimp wear is not factual as there are a ton of people out there that apparently think there is not. Just don't buy it if you don't like it. Maybe it is financing a product you will like? Hey, now that I think about it, I've been onto a male item that should be useful to the non-skimp wear market. Maybe?
This is quite an interesting thread.
Lots of good comments which would warrant sub-discussions, but I`ll mostly stick to the OP.
I think there are several valid takes on the matter.
If I look at the products at Daz as art (or the works made with it by customers) it seems awfully devaluated.
People in traditional arts can make millions. The range for a content creator at Daz goes from "starve to death" to "have a decent life".
I doubt there`s a chance to get really wealthy here.
It`s more or less the same in most areas of 3d design, in a way it`s junk food.
It can generate money by quantity, like # of game copies, # of movie tickets, # of products at Daz.
But the art itself has little value.
On the other hand, to me that little value is the more appropriate one, it`s the millions payed for a painting or to an movie actor that are off.
Well, that was the negative view, I lean towards the other side.
Yes, the available technology gives a theoretical possibility for pretty much everyone to try make a living with creative work.
And yes, in reality a lot of people struggle to do so.
But ... what were the chances without that technology?
Without Daz, what would most of the PAs do, where would they work?
There is a limited number of jobs in the 3d industry to begin with. Some people can`t take office jobs.
The requirements for work in top 3d companies are very high, to be honest, not many of us would meet them.
How many of the render artists could create such cool stuff without the provided content?
The same is true for other creative branches.
E.g. youtube is filled with bad wannabe musicians, but it also gives real talents a chance to present themselves and start a career.
My goodness, no youtube no Gabrielle Aplin ...I`d be sad for it. ;)
Without the tech musicians had to walk from bar to bar and spend years playing gigs for food, just to end up nowhere.
How many could afford a camera and try to be a photographer 20 years ago?
Cut short, I find those tools that allow people to try make a living from creative work to be a blessing.
Imo the problem rather lies with peoples expectations and self-assessment.
100-200?!
it wouldn't be possible to sell a million of content item?
i thought there must be a million vicky4s out there, judging by all the vickyrotica renders - i'm sure i've seen at least a million.
I've had 3 freebies in the Daz store that I can track the sales of, they're all in the thousands as far as free "purchases". And that's 30 seconds of someone's time to get a daz installer, imagine how much less it is if someone has to part with their money for it.
to retire with no worries, need like 7 million in the bank.
Really? In the "bank"? Or maybe that's 7 million gold bars in the safe deposit box? 7 million cans of soup? :cheese:
Really? In the "bank"? Or maybe that's 7 million gold bars in the safe deposit box? 7 million cans of soup? :cheese:
a few under the mattress. haz to sleep in the chair cuz of the lumps :lol:
If I look at the products at Daz as art (or the works made with it by customers) it seems awfully devaluated.
People in traditional arts can make millions. The range for a content creator at Daz goes from "starve to death" to "have a decent life".
I doubt there`s a chance to get really wealthy here.For every Picasso there are a million guys at your local swap meet selling something for $19.95 and making nothing.
Its actually better for content makers here. More of them can reach 'working lower middle class' than could in traditional arts.
You lose the potential to have a Picasso, but you gain the ability to have a few hundred guys who pay the rent and put food on the table driving around painting people's vans...
I thinks its a more than fair trade to cut out the top and greatly expand the middle.
arcady, I completely agree, two lines down from where you stopped quoting my post I said pretty much the same thing, not to mention the block below it.
("On the other hand, to me that little value is the more appropriate one, it`s the millions payed for a painting or to an movie actor that are off. ")
I just felt I had to point that out, as the section you quoted changed, almost inverted, what I tried to say.
@ Misty Whisky
Vicky was/is almost as important to customers as Daz Studio/Poser itself. I doubt it sells millions, but the numbers have to be much higher than what was mentioned here for "regular" products.
Thinking back to some of the posts in here, I come away with how well DAZ is doing things. First, the content is delivered in essence just like and eBook. It's instant and has no packaging cost and delivered digitally, the lowest delivery cost that I am aware of.
I watched some of the zBrush summit last week. One portion was a group from Disney. They explained some about what went in to one of their characters. I can't fathom how many dollars it would be, but it sure went in front of a lot of people, was passed around and around, being worked on by teams before it became one character. Well, I suspect a lot of this is also DAZ works... but we get to buy that figure as an item produced for the masses and at a super deal. The hobbyist can output some awesome work for very little monetary investment.
Thinking of 'the masters', didn't almost all of them die as paupers? Only then did the value start to climb as the numbers were known. Perhaps the perceived rarity drove prices to where they are today? I wonder if anything digital will ever be a collectable. I hear OS2 is starting to bring a little.
I was wrong about 'free' bubble gum baseball cards when I was clothes pinning them to my bicycle when I was a kid. I had the best sounding vehicle in the neighborhood. One of my best friends from the time, in fact the one I rode to the store with to buy the bubble gum... filed his away in shoe boxes. Later, he bought the Lotus Esprit from the movie Pretty Woman. He has the best sounding vehicle in the neighborhood now. Ouch!
The old masters generally thrived only if they had a patron. Someone wealthy who would often provide lodging and essentials while they worked. I don't think anyone does that today. Government grants are the closest thing. People complain about the government supporting art. But often, those wealthy patrons I mentioned were people often position and power in the government.
I hear what you're saying. The issue I have in general is how people perceive how most artists live.
If it weren't for sales, MANY of us wouldn't survive. I buy my groceries on sale (with a coupon, etc). I buy Petrol from the cheapest place that is on my way. I stretch my food by not wasting it and using Tupperware. If I buy fast food (because I'm a dreadful cook) I buy it on sale (or with a coupon)
If things didn't go on sale, my money and the money of most artists wouldn't go ANYWHERE. Many of us make so little.
I know you are an artist, and I hope your finances are in better shape than most, because we need more people doing well.
So for most of us, a price hike hurts.
I wish someone would hike up OUR pay, so we could pay YOU more and you wouldn't be disheartened.
I work at Burger King right now. I consider art as a hobby. I work so I can spend a little on my hobby. I looked into doing things for money and decided this was going to be a hobby. People need food. People buy burgers. Not everyone is shopping for virtual goods. I need sales too.
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So many good points in this thread that to quote everything I want to address would take up a whole page itself so, I wont be quoting.
What I personally would like to add to the discussion is first a big "Thank You" to all the artists that create content for me to purchase and enjoy while I am continuing to learn more and increase my enjoyment in this hobby. I think I have probably purchased something from just about everyone during my time spent learning this new ( to me) artistic medium thus far. I am enjoying myself hugely while I learn and the things that the artists create help to fuel my progress by a) creating just that "one thing" that fills in a gap for a project I have been struggling to figure out how to complete or b) creating something that inspires me to do something else. That is not something you can really put a price on.
That said, for the artists to keep creating, a price has to be put on it. Sometimes that price is just above the range of what could be considered "comfortable" for a casual purchase for a hobby. That's when I start saving up or rearranging how I plan to spend my discretionary funds so that I can purchase the item. Or, it goes into my wishlist so that when its "on sale" I can hopefully purchase it and enjoy using it. Like mostly everyone else in our current economy, I have a smaller amount of "discretionary funds" to spend of late and while I truly enjoy this hobby, A hobby is what this is when it comes down to it and the mortgage, utility bills , groceries, and other necessities of daily life come first.
So, speaking for myself, its not that the work of the artists is "not worth it" . Its never that. Its just a matter of economics. The old pricing model for the "Platinum Club" had to change. I did not like that. I complained about it. However, after thinking about it somewhat I came to understand that it was in a lot of ways unsustainable and changes/adaptations had to be made. So, I tried the beta, learned how my spending habits would have to change and have tried to leverage the benefits of the new pricing model. If the pricing model had to change so that good quality content could continue to be sourced for its members then that's what had to be done. I would rather have 5-6 pieces of really solid content that can be used in many ways over time than to have 11-12 pieces of content that I purchased for less cost but then found to be not of sufficient quality for my use.
I don't think the desktop will become obsolete in the near future:
"If Windows 8 was a dramatic lurch towards mobile computing, especially on tablets, Windows 9 appears to be heading for a more equitable balance between desktop muscle, and mobile capability. That fits into the larger picture of the computing environment, where PCs are stabilizing after a dramatically difficult period, and tablet growth is cooling....
So back to the desktop? Not entirely. Microsoft isn’t backing down from the Windows Store. It isn’t abandoning the Start Screen. Live Tiles do not appear to be going anywhere, on Windows or Windows Phone. Instead the company seems to be at once focusing on providing a Windows 7-quality desktop experience in Windows, while also tying that desktop life to its new mobile-friendly interface, and apps."
http://techcrunch.com/2014/08/10/saying-goodbye-to-windows-8/
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This is so perfectly stated! I love it! A great post!
Thank-you