Native Linux Version
artzien
Posts: 0
Greetings!
I'm probably not the first person to suggest this: why not making a native Linux version? That would be a huge leap forward for many DAZ Studio users.
Sincerely,
Artur
:smirk:
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True. There are only two applications that still force me to use Windows. DAZ Studio and Photoshop.
Hi there,
Yeah! Now, it's a good idea to push the Photoshop guys into making a Linux version.
Sincerely,
Artur
+1 for a Linux version. I have been trying to use DAZ with wine, and there are some major performance issues, as well as crashes. It's bad enough that I have discontinued using DAZ until a native version is released.
For some time I have thought about a dual boot system (insert another SSD in my PC, install Windows on one, and Linux on the other). But I have dropped the idea, because I see no real advantage in constantly switching between the two OS. Having to save your files, reboot the PC just for doing a task in the other OS, then save and rebbot to continue with the other OS again. I think that is not worth the effort.
So, as long as there is no possibility to do everything I want 100% in Linux, I will stay 100% on Windows.
The question probably would be : how much are you willing to pay for a Linux version?
With a user base of less than 2% on desktops there is no reason for companies to spend a couple hundred thousand dollars on porting their desktop apps.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usage_share_of_operating_systems
DAZ Studio uses OpenGL, and already has a MAC version. 3delight the renderer DAZ currently comes with has a Linux version already. There's no way it would cost anywhere near 100k dollars to make a Linux port since the hardest parts should already done.
Linux itself is free, so nothing.
DAZ Studio is free for Windows and for Mac, so a Linux version also has to be free.
With a subscription for Photoshop (CC) I should be able to download any version I want to have.
But I see the point. It does not matter how much a Linux port would cost for the companies. Fact is it would cost something. And with a user base of less than 2% it is simply not worth any investment.
On the other side, if there was more software available for Linux, more people would use it and the user base would climb.
And another point of view: How would DAZ Studio, Photoshop or any other application benefit from running on Linux? Would they be faster, better, more stable? The only reason why I am still a bit interested in Linux is that there is less malware and other useless crap available for it. So (to me) Linux looks more "clean" and safe. But if Linux would get a greater user base, maybe also the "bad guys" would get more aware of it. And soon Linux could be the new Windows (viruses, trojans, malware, crap). Who knows. I am no expert. LOL.
EDIT:
Oh, I have just watched the link and saw that Apple (OS X) is has just 6.38% on desktop systems. However almost every company has a Mac version of their applications....
Depending on what site you reference Mac OS X can be as low as 4.8% (2013) - 8.6% (2014) but the one distinction Mac OS has over other Unix builds is its reputation for the choice platform of professional designers and artists. Linux is virtually unknown on the business end of graphic arts, it's what people knowledgable about OS's consider a secure web or back end platform for serious work, but potentially problematic for corporations because it's a loose confederacy of developers where as Windows and Apple are bricks and mortar buildings with zip codes. The problem I forsee with a native Linux version is now a very small department of developers over at Daz3D would be supporting 3 versions of software, if they could hire developers dedicated to that it would be fine but I don't think it's financially feasible for them to do so at this time without current support being greatly affected.
As for other fields, well it seems like Mac users have become a market already big enough to cater for, or at least too big and growing too fast to ignore.
They could support all flavors of linux by releasing the application compressed with dependencies to run in user space like blender does. I can litterally go to blenders website and download their .tar.bz extract it and run it on both my desktop running lubuntu, and my laptop running arch. Two systems with different linux flavors. Or they could just package it for one distro and alow the community to do the rest like Steam does. Or they could just pick a couple of the biggest distros and package it for those(ubuntu/debian, opensuse, fedora). It's not like it's a huge amout of work to package an executable for any particular distro, and there isn't a huge difference between the different distros. So this realy isn't an issue that should prevent them from releasing a linux version.
One thing that's noteworthy is that almost all cell phones nowadays run a variant of Unix (Android=Linux, iOS=BSD), so it is possible to create a Linux based system provided you lock down the hardware to only a handful of supported chips and create an easy to use UI. That's why the Steam Machine looks promising. As for generic desktop Linux I doubt it will make any more headway in the next 20 years than it has in the past.
Supporting multiple distros also means testing on each of them to ensure compatibility, fixing possible distro-specific bugs, having customer support able to address problems for users using each of them... Which means time, money and resources.
This would only apply if they decided to support multiple distros. Something that they wouldn't need to do. They could do what steam does and state that they only support one specific distro and only offer support for that. Ubuntu right now has the largest marketshare so supporting that distro or debian which ubuntu is based on would be more than enough.
Support is always going to cost money, but no one is saying that they want or that there needs to be support for every obscure linux distro out there. Also the majority of support could be handled by the linux community just like it is for most other applications that run on linux
the reason that's possible in UNIX is because so much of the source code is readily available. What's the likelihood of Daz3D releasing that code to the public so it can be handled out of their wheelhouse?
I'm not asking them to do that nor do they have to. I specifically used steam as an example because it is a closed source program that is only supported by valve on ubuntu, but can be installed on just about every distro available(and on the distros I've tried it has worked flawlessly) because there is so much support from the community. When users have issues with steam on their specific non-ubuntu distro they don't go to steam for support they'll go to their specific communities to ask what for assistance.
I'm not asking them to do that nor do they have to. I specifically used steam as an example because it is a closed source program that is only supported by valve on ubuntu, but can be installed on just about every distro available(and on the distros I've tried it has worked flawlessly) because there is so much support from the community. When users have issues with steam on their specific non-ubuntu distro they don't go to steam for support they'll go to their specific communities to ask what for assistance.
and what percentage of Unix users are Steam users and what percentage would be potential Studio users? Steam has a pretty versatile user base in which to support in the Unix community, even if it turned out to be 10% of the Unix community it would still be vastly larger than the potential Studio user base. The other reality of this is there are some things you can't fix without coding from the devs and there are outstanding issues the Mac and Windows community have been waiting for a resolve for ages.
I'm not trying to tell anyone "No" but I think at this point if Daz3d thought this would opportunity would be a Return On Investment we would have seen a native Unix happen ages ago.
Found Possible way to get DAZ3D working on LINUX operation system.
Found this rather interesting detail off of Deviant Art.
Found while doing search off of my website using ask
By the Way WINE is the key
-------------------
but you may ASK
What is Wine?
Wine (originally an acronym for "Wine Is Not an Emulator") is a compatibility layer capable of running Windows applications on several POSIX-compliant operating systems, such as Linux, macOS, & BSD. Instead of simulating internal Windows logic like a virtual machine or emulator, Wine translates Windows API calls into POSIX calls on-the-fly, eliminating the performance and memory penalties of other methods and allowing you to cleanly integrate Windows applications into your desktop.
Another super link on using WINE I found using ASK
Deviant Art BTW is not just for Erotic Images LOL
https://www.deviantart.com/gaffthehorse/journal/Daz-Studio-Installation-Guide-for-Linux-and-Wine-816011630
ANYBODY ... LET ME KNOW IF YOU HAVE TRIED THIS WINE DRINKING LOL ...GOING TO WIPE AN OLD LAP TOP LATER IN AUGUST AND GIVE IT A SHOT ... WISH ME LUCK
I used to use daz with wine years ago. Back then it had a lot of issues that made me give up on it. I recently tried the new version, and it dosen't seem to install properly so the newer versions probably don't work at all.
The major issue is that they don't even consider supporting Linux. They don't test newer versions against wine so even if the current version somehow worked with wine there's no garantee that the next version will work.
...one situation posed by W11 is the requirement for new almost state of the art hardware (particularly the CPU) which for a number of people be a major financial burden. I looked at what it would take and the base cost for a new CPU, MB, and memory (that wouldn't just be a "stopgap" which would become obsolete in a year or two) is around 1,800$ (which doesn't include a new RTX GPU as prices are ludicrous right now). That's a fair cost to try and absorb in a limited budget..
Offering native Linux support would allow older hardware to still be viable.
...it's just a thought...
I think The MS Windows company is pushing people away with its business practices. I stopped using Adobe Photoshop for the same reasons. If you are a business you look at what Adobe and Microsoft did as cost of doing business with partner companies but as private users we don't have to do that. I do dual boot and I spend alot of time in Linux using Blender and Gimp and some other Open Source Software that works for me. I mostly use windows for daz and playing games but MS and the graphic card industry is doing everything in their power to get me to stop using their products. I find the Linux OS a pain; too many text commands just like Blender used to be with its own way of doing things instead of making things easy. I think if the Linux community can get their head out of the sand and make the User interface as easy to use as Windows or the Mac OS it would dominate the PC enviroment. So I don't thing it is Daz the company's fault for sticking with MS Windows because it has a huge user base and is easier to use. If Daz was going to to a Linux version they would have to start by making their own flavor of Linux that way they would have control over the OS and they would have less issues with their software conflicting with the OS. Heck, they could just integrate the software into the OS and it would run even smoother. They would definately find people from both the business world and the art crowd start dual booting just to run their OS. For me it will always be ease of use unless they put too much DRM, then I just walk away, no need to argue, there is no point.
:JakeEdward
Hi. I usually keep an eye on the 'Daz Studio and Linux' Thread (it goes quiet a lot as people only go there when they have problems), and only pop in on the other forums infrequently so I only just spotted this thread.
I've been using Daz Studio on (Arch)Linux since 2017 - it's worked, with a number of caveats, pretty much okay for most that time (starting on Studio32 before Wine 2 came out early 2017, by June, Studio64 was pretty usable including Iray).
This last year hasn't been operationally great on my system, with Studio ceasing to recognise OpenCL for some time - GPU renders using iray have virtually never worked, but having a Ryzen 7 CPU I don't mind so much, but I am missing dforce right now. I'd hoped the recent Nvidia 470. driver might improve things, but it's got a bug that's forced me to downgrade to 465 or switch to the more primitive Nouveau drivers, which seems to have affected even the usually reliable Iray renderer - I've been using the handicap to spend more time with 3Delight.
My Tutorial on DA should work - It's based on a walkthrough by a Debian user as well as myself - A few users have had issues with getting the Content Management set up, but apparently the CMS works without the SQL db setup step at all with Pop-OS (at least according to one or two users).
...I was considering a W7 VM with a Linux server but with Nvidia ditching driver support next month that no longer is an option. I have an old x5660 6 core Xeon, not the fastest for Iray CPU rendering as well as an Nvidia Titan-X.
There is a thread here where someone has been testing a home-grown Daz plugin for LuxCore Render and the results so far look promising. This could be the out I need for the VM path (which would be a less costly upgrade than rebuilding my system for W11) since Luxcore uses OpenCL. I there is no worry should Daz move to a newer version of the Iray engine in a later update of the programme that would require a driver I could not use. It also means that once Nvidia dumps Maxwell (lower VRAM Maxwell cards have already been moved to a "depreciated" status) I can continue rendering on my current card. and not have to dig up 2-½ to 3 times (or even more) teh cost for an RTX 3060 (which comparable to the Titan-X in specs and performance) as well as not having to deal with Microsoft's next "joke" of an OS.
MS had it down with W7 and then royally fouled everything up with 8 and 10.
Luxcore? Yep, I just spotted that this evening Yaluxplugin. Must look into it further, I wonder if I can get it to just output the XLS and resources so I can use the linux native luxcore version. Never had much luck with Reality - too many crashes, and Luxus was good, but only able to use the old lux engine. The DEv is also working on a toolkit to make it easier to add additional render engines to Studio (I'd like to see AMD Prorender - GPGPU not tied to hardware sounds interesting)
I'll probably still not get GPU renders with Luxcore - I'm on the Nouveau drivers just now, as the new 470 driver has problems on my hardware (Xorg won't launch) and Nouveau is still far behind on recent Nvidia card support - my desktop isn't affected much - some game console emulators I use are less efficient, and a little more tearing on some HD videos, but the Wayland display server works.
Driver 470 (provided it works for you) is a long support driver, should last well into 2024 so Maxwell GPUs are supported for a year or two yet. Hopefully hardware market is better then, it's not good now with chip shortages all over.
My next GPU won't be Nvidia - I decided that a little after my current build - I gambled on maybe getting GPU iray but it's not paid off, OpenCL is patchy and nothing but headaches on Desktop linux with Nvidia.
..I believe it was in the Iray notes for 4.15 where it mentioned Iray support about the "depreciated" status for Maxwell.
The issue with the newer drivers is they are optimised for RTX cards meaning tat in Iray, OptiX is always on for older GPUs which I discovered really slogs rendering down. When I rolled back the driver and went back to Daz 4.10, a scene I've been working on in 4.12 rendered in half the time it did in 4.12 which was the first release to have Iray optimised for RTX.
Again looking to go the VM route for now so I can keep using W7 for Daz and Linux for modelling in Blender and other tasks.. It will mean getting a new MB, CPU, and going to 64 GB of RAM in order to allocate 48 GB for rendering support of the Titan-X on the VM leaving me with 16 GB for working in Linux. Looking at a Haswell Xeon as I don't think a Ryzen or Threadripper will support W7 even on a VM.
I sincerely doubt that it will be such a great development. One of the main reasons why you hardly see commercial (based) software on Linux is because the support of said software can easily turn into a nightmare. The main problem with Linux (and many other open source projects in general) is that in the end it only caters to one thing: the developers. And things can (and have, and will) change on a developers whim. Sometimes these changes are small, but other times they can be very drastic.
Think for example about the move from Xorg to Wayland (for non-Linux users: the move to use a completely different graphics engine).
In most cases Linux (and most open source projects) couldn't care less about things like backwards compatibility for example. Heck, even projects that do (FreeBSD comes to mind) also often struggle with the concept as a whole. Yet that is one of the most fundamental features for commercial products, because the last thing you want is having to re-code most (?) parts of your software just to make sure it continues working.
Which is basically the main problem... Linux may be free, Daz Studio may be free, but all those Daz developers are not free. And having to constantly change stuff just to make sure things continue to work is a major resource hog.
Or what to think about different Linux distributions? Some use KDE, others use Gnome and others rely on even other window (or desktop) managers. XFCE4 anyone? Yet that is another problem because these environments provide much more than just a nice look and feel, it can also make it easier to develop software for the GUI. But... support one means that you may run into issues with supporting the other.
And that's not even taking support into account. Linux isn't exactly mainstream thus Daz may need to train people so that they can support the whole thing, another major investment.
In the end I cannot help but be convinced that such an endeavor is going to cost Daz much more than they can make from it. Never forget: Linux may be free, but the labor involved isn't.
I consulted phoronix.com on kepler driver deprecation after R470 driver series - Maxwell has been legacy since the Pascal series came out so I expect it's only a matter of time - Nouveau driver support is marginally better for this older chipset as Nvidia introduced firmwar signing after which has hampered the development of the open drivers.
Drivers in a VM are independant of the Host, so I wouldn't worry about issues running W7 on modern System chips like Ryzen. people have run much older OSs in VMs like Windows XP or even OS/2 Warp.
ShelLuser
Maybe in small to tiny projects by one user changes will be on a whim, but not anything major. For major changes, the change is planned and discussed in advance. Try keeping up with the dev mailing list on a large OSS project for a while.
If you think the decision to move to Wayland from Xorg was a change 'on a whim' you are extremely ignorant. Xorg is a really old codebase that dates from 1984. Faced with increasing difficulties in keeping the XWindows codebase up to date and other security issues with Xorgs client server design the decision was taken to make a fresh start.
The principal reasons why you hardly see commercial software on linux are not that, not even the diverse available desktops and GUI environments as programs designed for one desktops ui toolset will run on another quite well I might find GTK 3 programs overly simplified and the client side decor annoyingy unhelpful and unnecessary on my tiling wm, but the program runs fine.
The reasons come down to not having a large enough userbase, no corporate backer pushing desktop use, and probably the free nature of the OS (Linux users aren't really accustomed to paying for their software).
I don't think it'd look to Daz like a profitable endevour to invest in a native Linux version of Studio I'm afraid. Yes, a lot of people say they are looking for an alternative to Windows every time a favoured version is to be retired in favour of something more restrictive, but whether those people would actually transition is questionable.
...however the ending of support for older GPUs relates to the Iray render engine, not general GPU use. I could still use my old Fermi GTX 460 to run my displays and even for games (provided I had driver version 391.35 installed), but for Iray purposes, Fermi support was dropped a year or so ago.
As to the CPU I thought it has to natively support both the server and VM as well. While I read that some were able to get a Ryzen CPU to work with W7 it involves a bit of messing around.
With W11 looming ahead, at least this old timer is seriously looking for alternatives. Didn't jump on W10 train as I didn't like where it was headed and W11 is going even further off my path.
DAZ Studio is the last Windows program that I use, all the others can be found on Linux already.
Wouldn't mind if DAZ said, "This is the one and only version of Linux DS will work on"
I just bought a X299 motherboard to upgrade my rig before chipset support for W7 was dropped, now I just need to get my hands on X series i9 and I'm good for the next 4-5 years