Another character I'm returning 8.1 it's not.
nicstt
Posts: 11,715
in The Commons
https://www.daz3d.com/leona-for-genesis-81-female
Claims to be 8.1, but has 8.0 textures.
Returning the full cart - voting with my wallet.
PAs... Tell me what I'm getting.
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Comments
That's why I am using the DAZ browser plugin from @Ati. Via the direct link to the "Readme" file, and the file list, it stops me from buying unwanted items. I do agree that it is not a good move from DAZ to promote a chatracter as 8.1 when it is not. Bad marketing, that has a good chance to backfire.
Not disagreeing with you or faulting you or anything like that but why does it matter?
I think they need separate standard language for indicating whether characters have new UVs and the new PBR skin settings/maps, because right now a character can accurately be 8.1 even if the only thing differentiating it from a Genesis 8 basic figure is the expression controls. Since there are people who have chosen to wait on 4.15 and avoid 8.1, that presents another messaging problem.
Hope this isn't a trend as that's pretty misleading, while you can still use G8 textures, it's still inexcusable due to the head being a separate texture for some inexplicable reason...
Because there are additional maps for details, AO, and a separate head texture that is featured to take advantage the new PBR settings... which this character does not!
Because 8.1 has different UVmaps and special shaders and users that want to use those only are unable to tell what they are purchasing with the current phrasing. If a product does not use the 8.1 specific features it should not be labled 8.1 IMO
Daz doesn't even know what it is, apparently. The description shows 8.1, and the What's Included shows 8.
With Mousso's Pandora, however, it's consistent
Guys...the "special shaders" can be applied to literally anything. They are not exclusive to Genesis 8.1. The only changes are the UV map, which is of debatable importance, and the new face rig. Every other "feature" marketed for 8.1 is available very easily for 8.0.
The new PBR shader can use tiles for the details, which means the UV map does not matter. You could apply the PBR shader to Genesis 1,2,3 as well, or even Victoria 3 if you wanted to. Or a banana.
I just want you guys to understand that most of what you are buying here is marketing. Even the face rig that 8.1 uses has roots in 8.0 as a purchased product. So why be bothered by a character actually being for 8.0? You can simply load that character on 8.1 and get all of the advertised benefits of 8.1.
After all, just because a character is 8.1 does not mean that character uses PBR Skin Shader. That is the PA's choice to use it or not.
Thus the advertising on the character is not technically wrong, because this character CAN be used for 8.1, just like all 8.0 characters can be. It may be a bit misleading, but I believe this PA is not a native English speaker and is perhaps as confused as many customers are about 8.1. IMO Daz has failed to create a clear guideline for them.
You're missing the point entirely. Daz markets to hobbyists and is all about ease of use: click and it works as advertised. Daz isn't Blender, and certainly doesn't advertise its products as kits, but as ready-to-use assets. This product was not advertised as a banana, but a Genesis 8.1 character, and that brings with it certain expectations. If Daz and/or the PA can't meet those expectations, they should expect returns.
Daz hasn't even put a video about 8.1 on their YouTube channel, while there are four (4) on Octane. This is not how you launch an update to your base figure.
I still have to question the choice to move a seam from below the chin/behind the ear to across the collarbone. Just...yeah...I'll continue on preferring the base Genesis 8 UV thankyouverymuch.
And in regards to the new shader...the benefits above the Uber Shader are again, quite debatable. There are the new tiled normals...which meh...if a character has well-made normals and bump and specular to begin with, the microdetails aren't really needed anyways? And don't get me started on the new shader taking away features from the Uber Shader that a lot of people used and relied on for really nice skin. If I were to purchase a character that uses the new shader, I'd just convert them over to Uber anyways, lol.
It's really all personal preference. I can see how it would be good if a vendor stated what UV map and what shader the character uses, but I don't think it should stop anybody from purchase. As you said, any G8 character can be shifted to 8.1 and get all the benefits of the 8.1 facial rig. That's really the only selling factor of 8.1...the facial rigging.
But it's not a matter of personal preference. If I order chunky peanut butter from Amazon, and I get raw peanuts, I didn't get what I ordered, even though I can roast and grind the peanuts to get peanut butter.
What if a vendor uses some features of both? Say if a vendor prefers the old uvs or shader but makes jcms to make their character work with the 8.1 expressions what do they call it? Genesis 8.05?
Worth noting I would definitely be for listing uvs and shaders used, It used to be pretty ubiquitous so it shouldn't be too hard to bring back
for the record I like the new shader but as a texture map usage conservationist am less into the new uvs, it requires a whole extra set of 4k textures :(
If you argue a figure doesn't count based on things like its UVs, then none of the core Daz figures for Generation 7 were Genesis 3 Males/Females, because I don't believe any of them used the default UVs.
In my opinion, if the PA sets up the figure to load on Genesis 8.1, then it must by necessity be described as an 8.1 figure, because being an 8.1 figure means it will not work correctly with older versions of Daz Studio.
If you're hugely concerned about what UV layouts and textures are used, then yes, it would be nice if that was listed, but Daz do actually provide the information, albeit in a somewhat awkward form - the File List in the official Read Me can tell you that this figure has Face and Torso maps, not Face, Head and Body maps, and therefore you can tell without purchasing that it is using the older UVs. It also does not list any of the new map types (which is not necessarily a guarantee that it's not using PBRSkin, but then PBRSkin isn't actually G8.1 specific anyway, even if Daz introduced it as part of the G8.1 release)
http://docs.daz3d.com/doku.php/public/read_me/index/80672/file_list
not interested in this one but any character claiming to be 8.1 would probably lose a sale to me due to compatibility issues with other software I use.
so certainly not a selling point for my circumstances.
Would be a shame if it did work perfectly well on 8
Mika 7 and Izabella 7 used the default G3F UV. Both I believe were made by the same PA.
Gonna add in my 5 cents here. End of they day since Genesis 8 and 8.1 use different uv sets I would like them listed in the whats included and features. Simply have an entry UV Set - Genesis 8 Female or Genesis 8.1 Female or both. This does cause confusion because it isn't specified and it needs to be since a few products say 8.1 for the sake of saying 8.1 for marketing purposes and don't really add or use any 8.1 specific features. There is a difference being compatible with 8.1 vs being natively developed for 8.1.
Reminds me of the old marketing-speak TV manufacturers did for HD-ready andd Full HD.
Or rendo's "HD" characters when all that's "HD" is the textures
I have no issue with standard 8 UV's, but If I want a character specifically for 8.1 UV's to test or something I wanna know that's what I am getting. That is the issue here.
Oh wait, i thought hd-ready was 1280x720 / 1366x768 (which are still HD compared to SD's 640x480 / 720x576), while FullHD was 1920x1080.
I don't care what a vendor prefers. If they want to make hybrid characters, then they shouldn't call them G8 or G8.1, which have standard specifications. What they call them or where they sell them up to them, but they shouldn't call them something they're not. But if they're selling me peanut butter, I expect the peanuts to be roasted and ground, and not raw and ground or roasted and still in the shell.
I have way, way too many morphs in my library and I'm mostly interested in buying 8.1 characters for skins and maps that match the new UVs. I'm also interested in seeing how more experienced folks manage the shader settings for different types of characters.
On a broader level, introducing the new layout and features meant vendors having to update their products and provide extended support on short notice. Older expressions and some cosmetic products and tools require workarounds to use on 8.1. From the atmosphere at the time of release, it felt like a lot of people were thinking, "Okay, this is a pain for now, but we might see some really cool new stuff and once support ramps up it'll probably be worth it." That hasn't happened yet, and while in the long run it probably will I think right now there's just legitimate interest in seeing more benefits to it.
That said, I know there were other people who were really nervous about the whole store potentially shifting over to 8.1 wholesale and leaving those who didn't want to adopt it behind, so there are also benefits to a longer introductory period and options for hybrid characters. The language could just be clearer.
The name of the product is Leona for Genesis 8.1 Female.
Under Compatible figures it's listed for Genesis 8 Female and Genesis 8.1 Female.
Under What's Included and Features it's listed as Leona for Genesis 8 Female.
Confusion all around.
This might be new or I might be extremely oblivious, but it looks like characters now have "This character uses the Genesis 8 Male/Female Base UV Maps" listed under "What's Included and Features." Leon's list shows that he has PBR settings, Uber settings, and base UVs.
Ye that would be the right way to list it.
Am I mistaken in the belief that Iray Uber shaders were also PBR shaders? For that matter, don't they call Filament stuff PBR? It's like having three categories called apples, oranges and fruit.
Yeah its a bit confusing PBR just stands for "physically based rendering" (also Pabst Blue Ribbon) so they all are "pbr"
Technically the new shader is the "PBR Skin Shader" but its always gets shortened to PBR rather than "Skin shader" (which also wouldn't be without confusion)
Personally I would have gone with "Dedicated Skin Shader" DSS for short, because then we could all talk about DS's new DSS :)
well PBR is simply physically based rendering
so not limited to just iray shaders just the shaders themselves may be
Octane is also a physically based render engine yet neither set of shaders really suit that it converts some not all.