Why hasnt the ancient Daz Studio got Soft Body Physics like Blender?
Rev2019
Posts: 167
Why [hasnt Daz Studio got Soft Body Physics like Blender?]?
this is one part that makes renderers of characters totally unrealistic in Daz 3D.
bodys are just to harsh and stiff looking.
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Post edited by Chohole on
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I should think there is a fair chance that it's on a list, eithe short or long, for a future addition to dForce.
all these products you mentioned does not really compete with real soft body simulation
i have all of those already but those are not enough to create realistic soft body effects.
they Squish body parts in an unrealistic way.
you got pressure from one part but they dont calculate how the rest of the body will look like.
take a balloon and press it from one side
what happends is that the balloon will expand on the sides.
this isnt happening with the soft body morphs.
Characters from Blender even have pressure marks from the clothes.
how do you get that with these morphs?
if so they need to increase the poly count on the Genesis models.
there are too few polygons as it is now to create realistic body morphs.
Genesis 8/8.1 is just like an bad low poly bed where you add an D Former and try to make it look smooth with pressure marks.
you just cant do it because the resolution is too low.
if you should have soft body simulation right now and as an example you want to simulate pressure from clothes.
those pressure marks would be too big and harsh looking because of the low poly count.
the renderer below is one part from an character from Blender.
these fine pressure marks from the straps are impossible to do with Genesis 8 even if we had soft body simulation.
I don't think the devs should bolt on another physics simulation until the core software is improved enough to handle it, or else it'll collapse under its own weight. In Blender it takes under a second to zero out a pose, but in Daz Studio it takes upwards of thirty. Plus, Daz doesn't have essential Blender features like the intuitive hotkeys, the 3D cursor to position elements, arbitrary rotation points, efficient snapping and aligning, etc. So trying to do complex physics simulations is just asking for a migraine.
Apparently Published Artists have access to a top-secret Morph Loader that allows them to create high-quality HD morphs that do what you're asking for, but it's not for public use.
ohh really
another reason to stop supporting Daz 3D and go for Blender.
Blender is for users only
If it comes to just increasing polygon count, everyone can do that. Most Genesis 8 figures load at a subdivision level of 0 or 1. Just bump up "SubD" in your figure's parameter tab, and your polygon count goes up. Most HD morphs work on SubD's of 4 and 5.
As with HD Morphs, you are correct that Daz supplies a PA-only tool for creating HD morphs, but that is not a technical recstriction but a marketing decision.
No reason you can't use both. Daz3D has a huge asset library.
No one is using Daz Studio under duress. Everyone's free to use whatever software they like. I'm sure we would all like to be impressed by the superior results obtained by people who move on from Daz Studio to other platforms.
One thing I've been meaning to try--but haven't yet--is just painting displacement maps in Blender and exporting them to Daz Studio. As long as they're 4K, in theory we should be able to blend them using the LIE and displace the skin under the tight clothing.
It's not that simple. If you were to try that with something like Mesh Grabber, or a d-former, your selection points would still show the original polygons. That method of approach is very 'fat-fingered' if that means any sense. You can't really get the precision you need for fine detail. Like I could use that method to create muffin top from pants or a belt but not intricate strap pressure points. The only way to work around it is to make sure your figure is at the 'end-game' in terms of posing, export to the modeling tool of your choice (I use ZBrush), bump up the subdivisions, create your pressure points, and then import the figure back in as a new object at the higher subdivision.
Go for it! there is nothing stopping you from creating your own 3d characters in blender. Blender is a full fledged modeling and 3d app. daz studio is a very specific app that has one purpose, to allow users to use DAZ assets in renders and animation. That is like comparing a local lemonade stand to a grocery store, Both use lemons to make lemonade, but the grocery store has more varieties, other ways to make it and other products.
Why don't you just port the Daz character into Blender and do the soft body physics there? I do hair and cloth simulation all the time with Daz clothes on Daz characters I ported in Blender through either the Daz to Blender Bridge or the Diffeomorphic tool and it works amazing. It's really not that difficult and it's really cool to be able to use the best of both programs as they each have their own amazing aspects to them. There's no reason to think it's a this or that, us or them scenario. We're in the greatest time to be 3D artists and have so many wonderful things at our disposal that are starting to work together very nicely.
A large part of it is that many or most of the existing clothing assets out there simply aren't made to work with it. Because of the limitations of dForce, a lot of items are not fully dynamic, and there's no documentation as to what is and isn't.
With dForce, it's more or less okay if the clothing has dynamic physics but the figure doesn't, because you still get much of the effect. It doesn't work so well with DS.
That said, I have actually done experiments with using dForce for soft body stuff, and it has been somewhat successful. It's limited to the base mesh resolution, but even so, that's still often a dramatic improvement to the end result.
On a related note, I tried using a smoothing modifier on a G8 model to deform the mesh where it impacts with a prop. However, I noticed that introduced some weird artifacting to the eyes. Still, if you can't see their face, it's a quick and easy fix. You can probably even save it out, reimport it as a morph, and do it again if you have multiple intersecting props.
Yeah, I can see dFroce being used for some types of soft-body effects like indents caused by tight-fitting clothing but when I think of soft-body physics I think of flesh bounce and jiggle, etc. I have seen some attempts at using dForce for that and have been quite unimpressed. Also, dForce is soooo sloooow!
How did you accomplish this? Paint a dForce weight map on the figure (obviously) and then reduce the size of the garment on the timeline?
I've run into a general issue with smoothing modifiers on clothes, since most clothes use/need them. If you morph the body to 'bulge' from the clothing, then the clothing just smoothes itself out to match, thus defeating the purpose of morphing the body. The only way I've gotten around this is to export the clothing to obj and then reimport as a new object that won't react to changes to the body.
More or less; I've got a dForce weight map that entirely paints out any sufficiently bony bits that shouldn't squish, and the dForce strength is set very low on the rest of the body. A partial dynamic strength appears to be achieved by a spring that pulls the vertices back into their unsimmed positions, so if you get the strength and other parameters right it is actually not terrible at representing elastic materials like skin.
Part of the reason I'm doing the pressure with dForce in the first place is that this is part of an underwear set I've created to be dForceable - as the elastication can pull it around into different positions depending on pose, I can't just do one fixed pressure morph and need to generate them based on how the figure is posed in that scene. But it does actually work reasonably well. This was an early effort and I've created better contract morphs for the clothing now, but it's the example I had a reference available for.
Cool! Will this make its way into a product?
Hi,
From what I have read so far, currently Daz Studio doesn't include a soft body physic engine. If I don't mind the learning curve, what is the best way to have soft-body-enable render inside Daz Studio ?
I know I can export figure to blender and do the soft-body physic there, but can it be imported back to daz (as morph) so I can render with iray?
Thanks.
Carrara has soft body,dynamic hair and bullet physics.
never thought to try it for somethinh like skin pressure.
It's funny to me how amazed people seem to be that DS doesn't have soft body physics when it doesn't even have basic rigid body physics.
To be fair, a lot of Daz's users would get far more use out of soft body physics than rigid body (insert "that's what she said").
Likley, Daz would need Soft body physics to have a good monetizing factor. Maybe wrong?
Quite a few of us want and need it like yesterday, but think the main focus today is still sell content with still frames/dforce. dForce means generally good for that animation and no full spring back, despite any weight map games. Bridges and Filament were first additions to support the more basic animations. Not to say some users didn't take time to push the DAZ envelope. Bridges mean so much again for moving content with issues galore. Or that's my take.
Sincerely hope DAZ will find a way to monetize animations going forward. They can have my credit if it means a 2 year buy-in minimum. But guess that's a less popular method. Also, guess MAC support among more main current focus, depending on number of actual MAC users. Personally think MAC is more suited to a more canned environment, so smaller studios like DAZ will need more time and thought.
Can't believe Carrara had bullet physics. Wow. Don't know how advanced, but still.
Anyway, add my $ vote for soft body physics.
Sorry, I haven't read through this whole thing, so it's possible someone has already said something like this.
I think it would be possible for them to do it without a proper physics system, just by a modification to their existing smoothing system which currently allows (usually clothing) meshes to have their vertices projected outward from an underlying mesh (I assume based on it's surface normals)
The idea is that you have mutual collisions between 2 (or more) meshes and the vertices are now only projected inward based on their own respective surface normals and smoothing becomes based on deformation from unprojected vertex points, so unprojected vertices will not have any mutual collision smoothing. This would be performed iteratively and would probably need to be done across an entire scene involving just items with a geometry modifier for mutual collisions. It would also be nice if self collisions was included for stuff like a character placing their hand on their hip.
Maybe I'm missing your point or (more likely) misunderstanding the concepts but my idea of soft-body physics is flesh jiggle (breasts, buttocks, bellies, etc.). It was mentioned above that some of us needed this yesterday but I believe I have posted it as a wished-for feature for at least 10 years. That's why I have no expectation that DAZ Studio will ever have it. At the moment I use the Zev0 morphs to emulate jiggle in my small and limited animations but I can't get it to look natural because it is not physics, it is guesswork.