Why hasnt the ancient Daz Studio got Soft Body Physics like Blender?

narkfestmojo

marble said:

narkfestmojo said:

Sorry, I haven't read through this whole thing, so it's possible someone has already said something like this.

I think it would be possible for them to do it without a proper physics system, just by a modification to their existing smoothing system which currently allows (usually clothing) meshes to have their vertices projected outward from an underlying mesh (I assume based on it's surface normals)

The idea is that you have mutual collisions between 2 (or more) meshes and the vertices are now only projected inward based on their own respective surface normals and smoothing becomes based on deformation from unprojected vertex points, so unprojected vertices will not have any mutual collision smoothing. This would be performed iteratively and would probably need to be done across an entire scene involving just items with a geometry modifier for mutual collisions. It would also be nice if self collisions was included for stuff like a character placing their hand on their hip.

Maybe I'm missing your point or (more likely) misunderstanding the concepts but my idea of soft-body physics is flesh jiggle (breasts, buttocks, bellies, etc.). It was mentioned above that some of us needed this yesterday but I believe I have posted it as a wished-for feature for at least 10 years. That's why I have no expectation that DAZ Studio will ever have it. At the moment I use the Zev0 morphs to emulate jiggle in my small and limited animations but I can't get it to look natural because it is not physics, it is guesswork. 

It looks like it was me that misunderstood, my bad...

I purchased this https://www.daz3d.com/hs-dforce-breast-for-genesis-2-through-genesis-8-female, but found it difficult to achieve a good result. Unfortunately, I gave up on it pretty quickly, so it might work OK with more effort.

It is the sort of thing that I think could do it, but I think a specially optimised dforce skin system (with conservation of volume) might be better (or at least easier) with a custom weight map for G8/8.1M/F build into Daz Studio. Like you just apply dforce skin to a compatible figure and a perfect weight map is setup for you.

Rod Wise Driggo

Matt_Castle said:

melissastjames said:

How did you accomplish this? Paint a dForce weight map on the figure (obviously) and then reduce the size of the garment on the timeline?

More or less; I've got a dForce weight map that entirely paints out any sufficiently bony bits that shouldn't squish, and the dForce strength is set very low on the rest of the body. A partial dynamic strength appears to be achieved by a spring that pulls the vertices back into their unsimmed positions, so if you get the strength and other parameters right it is actually not terrible at representing elastic materials like skin.

Part of the reason I'm doing the pressure with dForce in the first place is that this is part of an underwear set I've created to be dForceable - as the elastication can pull it around into different positions depending on pose, I can't just do one fixed pressure morph and need to generate them based on how the figure is posed in that scene. But it does actually work reasonably well. This was an early effort and I've created better contract morphs for the clothing now, but it's the example I had a reference available for.

Looks good and sounds interesting. Would be cool if you might put this together into a tutorial or maybe make a product from that underwear you've mentioned.

Sevrin

Daz Studio is not Blender and it never will be.  If you want Blender features, use Blender.

Daz's business model is built around Genesis figures that characters are built on.  That way PAs have a solid foundation they can create assets for, and those assets can be mixed and matched, and there's a certain amount of backward compatibility.  This means that items can be sold in large volume, and prices can be kept low.  All that means that makes it fairly easy for hobbyists to get started creating scenes and renders with using Daz Studio.  Without the base figure model, there would be no Poser and no Daz, and asset creators would be selling fewer items at higher prices on places like Turbosquid, and fewer people would be able to afford this hobby.

Soft-body physics will require a new Genesis base character which will possibly break backward compatibility, leaving customers with libraries full of assets they can no longer use with the new characters.  There's a good reason Daz is in no rush.

Masterstroke

Sevrin said:

[...]

Soft-body physics will require a new Genesis base character which will possibly break backward compatibility, leaving customers with libraries full of assets they can no longer use with the new characters.  There's a good reason Daz is in no rush.

This represents exactley the attitude, that killed Poser.  (well, almost killed)
Every new figure, broke backward compability. Look at the G2 to G3 transision. I don't see a problem with it. Somehow, somebody will come along with a converter script.

jestmart

A mesh is a mesh.  I see no reason why a physics feature of Studio would require a new figure.

Hurdy3D

jestmart said:

A mesh is a mesh.  I see no reason why a physics feature of Studio would require a new figure.

Basemesh may be too low poly for good soft body simulation. But if the soft body sim would work with sub-d we wouldn't neet a new generation.

M-C

Masterstroke said:

Sevrin said:

[...]

Soft-body physics will require a new Genesis base character which will possibly break backward compatibility, leaving customers with libraries full of assets they can no longer use with the new characters.  There's a good reason Daz is in no rush.

This represents exactley the attitude, that killed Poser.  (well, almost killed)
Every new figure, broke backward compability. Look at the G2 to G3 transision. I don't see a problem with it. Somehow, somebody will come along with a converter script.

I agree with that. 
There are still people using Genesis 1 these days. No one is forced to upgrade to a newer figure generation but it would be nice to have the option.
Personally I would pay a fortune to get a new figure with proper soft body physics. And I´m not even doing animations.

Masterstroke

I really wonder, if that soft body physics would help to make joint bendings look more realistic, by simulating how fat muscles and skin moving, when strechted and squished.
Also, even it it worked nicley that way, how much CPU and GPU power is requiered, when haveing at least 2 characters complete with clothes haires geoshells and geoo grafts in a room environment?

kwannie

Virtual World Dynamics can do full body dynamics, which means you can simulate soft body dynamics and even animate soft body effects. The creator is extremely helpful to his customers when they have issues. VWD works in DAZ, Poser and Carrara. Fantastic product!!!!

Ghosty12

I remember how for years Poser had cloth dynamics built into the software, while Daz for a long time did not, and it was only with the recent arrival of dForce do we have true dynamics..  I don't really count the Optitex software (although a start) because as far as I can remember you had to use specifically made Optitex clothing..

Saxa -- SD

Sevrin said:

Soft-body physics will require a new Genesis base character which will possibly break backward compatibility, leaving customers with libraries full of assets they can no longer use with the new characters.  There's a good reason Daz is in no rush.

Not necessarily.

Between quality geo-grafts and/or Sub-D access, the mesh could be more than adequate as is.

Daz knows as PCs get more powerful, then animation becomes more feasible, and thus desireable in bigger numbers.  Previous 10 years I can totally see that animation is a distant secondary priority.  Despite their being products and DAZ features to support some forms of animation.

To me, Daz is not Blender for a different reason.  IMO, Blender interface will always be more for programm oriented, and less artsy.   Whereas, DAZ has a much more friendly and intutitive interface.  Or i think so.   And native support, especially for big libraries. 

So I will argue for forseeable future accept that Blender and DAZ can occupy more similar environments and serve different client niches.  Many of us don 't want to pay Autodesk Maya an endless pricey subscription for full featured product.  And full use of DAZ assets in Unreal still seems unknown.  I'd rather give the $ to DAZ so I don't have to migrate a big library and use a program that makes me swear too much cos I don't click with it.

Saxa -- SD

kwannie said:

Virtual World Dynamics can do full body dynamics, which means you can simulate soft body dynamics and even animate soft body effects. The creator is extremely helpful to his customers when they have issues. VWD works in DAZ, Poser and Carrara. Fantastic product!!!!

The 32 bit limit and lack of an active forum and active users keeps me from making the time or comittment.   Seems to have quirks and issues if you want to unlock full use.  Otherwise, in theory, it may seem OK.  That was my read after checking it out in detail on 2 different occassions.

marble

kwannie said:

Virtual World Dynamics can do full body dynamics, which means you can simulate soft body dynamics and even animate soft body effects. The creator is extremely helpful to his customers when they have issues. VWD works in DAZ, Poser and Carrara. Fantastic product!!!!

I bought it and had lots of problems. At the time there was an active user forum at Rendo and the developer and others tried their best to help me overcome the problems but it just  wouldn't work for me. It would crash during a drape no matter what I tried or what the developer suggested. We even had a remote support session where he had remote access to my PC but it still crashed. Eventually, and generously, he returned my purchase price.

Nevertheless, during those trials I saw a lot of examples of working drapes without crashes from other people and it did have features that dForce still doesn't have such as pulling the cloth around during the simulation. I often wondered why DAZ didn't just buy VWD and continue development instead of dForce which is still so limited and sluggish.

marble

By the way, back to soft-body physics, has anyone had any luck using Spring Dynamics with dFormers? The promo mentions it and shows the bouncing belly but I can't find any description of how to get that effect. I spent a while yesterday trying out dFormers on glutes and got nowhere.

kwannie

LOL, marble we beat the spring deformers issue to death in the Sprng Dynamics thread, and they just would not devulge the secret of making it work, I'm still curious too. Actually VWD does still have an active forum and Gerald the creator of VWD is very easy guy to chat with, which I do fairly often. He is putting many new features into VWD that will allow making clothes a bit easier and looking to expand the capabilities even more. He is always open to suggestions so don't be shy about popping over to the rendo forum. VWD is complicated because it is extemely versatile with hair clothes and body dynamics has  wind, gravity and force field effects. It is really under rated for what it can do but it is getting better all the time!

Kaleb242

March 11, 2018

Any plans for soft body physics/bullet physics in the future?
https://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/238416/any-plans-for-soft-body-physics-bullet-physics-in-the-future

rilla

marble said:

By the way, back to soft-body physics, has anyone had any luck using Spring Dynamics with dFormers? The promo mentions it and shows the bouncing belly but I can't find any description of how to get that effect. I spent a while yesterday trying out dFormers on glutes and got nowhere.

This is what the creator of the program told me in a chat session:

 

"For the jiggle belly, we added a d-form to the figure and centered the zone on the stomach area. We placed the center point near his spine, so that the rotation of the affecter created the right kind of belly deformation. We then ran spring dynamics on the affecter."