Daz Studio - Subdivision
Xenomorphine
Posts: 2,421
I seem to remember, back when Genesis 2 HD stuff was coming on-line, that there was some talk about the subdivision option in Daz Studio. Of course, I hadn't really got into Genesis 2, back then, but as I'm now undertaking some project work which demands it...
What does this option actually affect? Is it just the viewport? Or does it do something to the end result of 3Delight renders? Does it affect Reality renders? Does increasing subdivision do anything for non-HD morphs?
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In DS using the 3Delight renderer yes, the Subdivision parameter is for the viewport only.
Ahhh, OK... Good to know I haven't been missing out on anything in the actual renders! :)
Subdivision modifies the actual mesh. Its effect is to smooth edges, but the price is that the number of faces (polys) is quadrupled for each level of subdivision, so it has a fairly significant effect on the amount of memory required for both the viewport and the renderer. You've probably seen low poly models where you can see "corners" in curves, so that what should be a smooth curve is visibly a series of angled straight lines. Subdivision will reduce this effect, so that ultimately these edges are undetectable.
The standard number of levels of subdivision for HD in DS is 3, but in the viewport it only shows as one by default, because if you were able to see the effect of 3 levels of subd in the viewport it would noticeably slow your viewport operations down (depending on the processing power of your computer) because of the massive increase of polys that have to be moved around. The full subdivision nevertheless takes place when the mesh is exported to 3Delight. Note that if you are exporting to Luxrender or Octane, you must set the mesh to 3 levels of subd in the viewport as that automatic process only works for 3Delight.
Subdivision is useful for Lux renders even on non-HD morphs as it will give a smoother result for many models, especially if they are lower poly, (and can help problems with lighting angles in some cases). For example, longer hair strands can look a bit "zig-zaggy" sometimes, and applying a subd modifier can smooth these out. However, not all model geometries are suitable for subdivision and you will see them rip apart when subdivided. These are usually older models that are highty triangulated and/or use split edges.
Fascinating to know, thank you... Especially in regards to it affecting Reality-based Lux renders, but not 3Delight versions.
Two other notes.
1. The viewport Sub-D level is the one used for exports, to include Luxus, Reality and Octane, so if you want to see the full effect of HD Morphs in those you have to increase your Viewport Sub-D level before using those for rendering.
2. While Sub-D does make corners rounded, this is only true if you have not edge weighted the involved edges to keep them sharp. Note that Open Subdiv edge weighting is only transferred in certain versions of FBX (I believe it is 2012 and later.) and aside from DS, Modo and Maya, and (I believe) the latest 3DS Max can also create objects with Open Sub-D edge weighting which can be used in DS.
Two other notes.
1. The viewport Sub-D level is the one used for exports, to include Luxus, Reality and Octane, so if you want to see the full effect of HD Morphs in those you have to increase your Viewport Sub-D level before using those for rendering.
2. While Sub-D does make corners rounded, this is only true if you have not edge weighted the involved edges to keep them sharp. Note that Open Subdiv edge weighting is only transferred in certain versions of FBX (I believe it is 2012 and later.) and aside from DS, Modo and Maya, and (I believe) the latest 3DS Max can also create objects with Open Sub-D edge weighting which can be used in DS.
And to elaborate, edges with support loops close to either side retain their "sharpness" because of how sub-D is calculated (I believe it's the Catmull-Rom method).
And to elaborate, edges with support loops close to either side retain their "sharpness" because of how sub-D is calculated (I believe it's the Catmull-Rom method). I know DS does not have a Catmull-Rom option and I don't believe it is part of the Open Sub-D Spec. If you want sharp edges in DS use Edge Weighting.
You can also use the Edge Interpolation drop-down in the parameters pane to make a global change for any SubD object - but that isn't very controllable.
Two other notes.
1. The viewport Sub-D level is the one used for exports, to include Luxus, Reality and Octane, so if you want to see the full effect of HD Morphs in those you have to increase your Viewport Sub-D level before using those for rendering.
2. While Sub-D does make corners rounded, this is only true if you have not edge weighted the involved edges to keep them sharp. Note that Open Subdiv edge weighting is only transferred in certain versions of FBX (I believe it is 2012 and later.) and aside from DS, Modo and Maya, and (I believe) the latest 3DS Max can also create objects with Open Sub-D edge weighting which can be used in DS.
Did 4.7 change anything in how fbx/ edge weighting is handled? This thread reminded me of something I wanted to test, but my fbx coming from Maya 2015 is coming out with weird behavior- the weight values are correct, but applied to random edges. It was working before and I'm a bit stumped.
Subdivision modifies the actual mesh. Its effect is to smooth edges, but the price is that the number of faces (polys) is quadrupled for each level of subdivision, so it has a fairly significant effect on the amount of memory required for both the viewport and the renderer. You've probably seen low poly models where you can see "corners" in curves, so that what should be a smooth curve is visibly a series of angled straight lines. Subdivision will reduce this effect, so that ultimately these edges are undetectable.
The standard number of levels of subdivision for HD in DS is 3, but in the viewport it only shows as one by default, because if you were able to see the effect of 3 levels of subd in the viewport it would noticeably slow your viewport operations down (depending on the processing power of your computer) because of the massive increase of polys that have to be moved around. The full subdivision nevertheless takes place when the mesh is exported to 3Delight. Note that if you are exporting to Luxrender or Octane, you must set the mesh to 3 levels of subd in the viewport as that automatic process only works for 3Delight.
Subdivision is useful for Lux renders even on non-HD morphs as it will give a smoother result for many models, especially if they are lower poly, (and can help problems with lighting angles in some cases). For example, longer hair strands can look a bit "zig-zaggy" sometimes, and applying a subd modifier can smooth these out. However, not all model geometries are suitable for subdivision and you will see them rip apart when subdivided. These are usually older models that are highty triangulated and/or use split edges.
Does anyone know if this can be done on a surface by surface basis or does it change the entire mesh?
I have only seen it done to the entire mesh in DS. The SubD option is in the Parameters Tab, not the Surface Tab.
I have only seen it done to the entire mesh in DS. The SubD option is in the Parameters Tab, not the Surface Tab.
Fair enough.
I guess that it's a foregone conclusion that you cannot export the mesh/obj with increased polygon count?
Fair enough.
I guess that it's a foregone conclusion that you cannot export the mesh/obj with increased polygon count?
Yes, you can export the subdivided mesh, depending on what you want to do with it.
Just to clarify for the OP Sub D does in fact affect the actual renders in 3D delight.
There are two parameters for Sub D settings under mesh resolutin the first is Resolution level this WILL effect the mesh at render time the second is SubDivision Level which is viewport only. So you can lower the SubDivision Level for viewport usage but the setting for Resolution Level will effect the Render. I have attached an image to show the difference.
Now, that's interesting... Shall be doing that in general from now on,
Any reason to push subdivision up to three or should it be left at two?
None that I can see, remember that the numbered slider named Subdivision Level only affects your viewport and not the final render so your probably best to set the Subdivision Level to 1 and set the Resolution level to high Resolution. This will give you a base proxy figure in the viewport for setup and the higher resolution figure at render time.
EDIT:This is regarding 3D delight rendering for export render systems the Subdivision level will affect the exported geometry I believe,
Depends on the geometry of the item in question. Stuff with very low poly counts you'll often want more than two. Also, rendering at higher resolutions tends to be less forgiving when you don't apply subdivision.
I always use two levels of subd for V4, and three levels for G/G2 (as their base is one order of magnitude less polys than V4). For really close up, add one level to that. But keep in mind, I render everything in LuxRender (which is less forgiving of low polycounts than 3Delight) and at some very high resolutions (up to 13,500x13,500 for print). I also subdivide pretty much everything the figure is wearing, too, when rendering at high resolution.
That is turning off Subdivision entirely. There is no real difference between that and setting the level to 0 in terms of system overhead, but it does mean you have to remember to turn it back on before rendering.
There are a couple of reasons to set subd to a level above 1, or two, etc.
The first is the viewport resolution is the level at which the content exports. This is important if you are going to another program or render engine, for example Lux render through Luxus or Reality and Octane or for export to other software, like 3DS MAX, Maya etc.
The second reason is to preview HD morphs, which only show up at higher resolutions.
So for gen 6 figures rendered in Reality 4 a subdivision of 3 levels is enough and for close ups we can maybe use 4 levels?
How many subdivisions are recommended for hair and clothing if rendering in Reality?
Note that in the 4.8 Beta we brought back render time subdivision sliders. This is the minimum amount of SubD that 3Delight will use, and the SubD level used in Iray.
Note this does not change the export level. The Viewport Level is still the level that DS will export a mesh.
Good to know, Spooky, thanks!
So for gen 6 figures rendered in Reality 4 a subdivision of 3 levels is enough and for close ups we can maybe use 4 levels?
How many subdivisions are recommended for hair and clothing if rendering in Reality?
Appropriate sub-d levels really depend on the density of the mesh and/or how much surface it has. Anywhere between 3 and 8 is fine, it shouldn't destroy your render times or memory either way, unless you're feeding in a mesh that already has a million faces.
Appropriate sub-d levels really depend on the density of the mesh and/or how much surface it has. Anywhere between 3 and 8 is fine, it shouldn't destroy your render times or memory either way, unless you're feeding in a mesh that already has a million faces.5 levels of sub-d on an Genesis 2 mesh will flatline most computers running DS if anything else in in the scene.
Greetings,
[style=tableHeadingBG]@DAZ_Spooky[/style] - If I want to render an HD morph in Iray (say Stephanie 6 HD), what should I set the render-subd to?
-- Morgan
3 should be enough for most HD morphs.
Flatline?
I think it would just outright bury most machines....even if it is the only thing in the scene. 3 was the highest I could get it to (32 bit DS), trying to go for 4 it crashed and burned...
Flatline?
I think it would just outright bury most machines....even if it is the only thing in the scene. 3 was the highest I could get it to (32 bit DS), trying to go for 4 it crashed and burned...
64 bit DS with 16 GB of Ram will usually handle 4. With 32 GB of RAM 5 levels will usually be handled but it is on the edge. We haven't tried 6 on 64, but 6 on a 32 GB system will bring things to a screeching halt.
Funny thing is I can get other 64 bit programs to run in WINE, but not DS...and even doing insane levels of sub-d in Blender may slow things to a crawl as everything gets swapped to disk, but it usually doesn't crash.
Belle 6 with a sub of 3 and Goldtassel's Kita hair with a subdivision of 2 handles fine, I've 8gb, 64bit DS.
Is it better to use smoothing iterations or subdivision on hair?
Yes...
I use a little of both. Even 1 level of subdivision will usually make the bends and curves in the hair more 'natural' while smoothing tames things like crinkles at the shoulders (along with collisions) or small intersections with the face/neck/etc.
Funny thing is I can get other 64 bit programs to run in WINE, but not DS...and even doing insane levels of sub-d in Blender may slow things to a crawl as everything gets swapped to disk, but it usually doesn't crash.
Blender isn't doing the HD math. :)