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It's nothing to do with telling you or others your "wrong". It has to do with attempting to see the situation from the eyes of a PA and the stuff they have to do and suffer for as well as the customer. We know we aren't going to please everyone. This is a niche profession and everybody has different taste and PA's know that. In most cases they aren't arguing, they are explaining the reason they do some things so the customer can understand what it's like to be a PA making some of those decisions.
Yeah, roger that.
If we make a freebie for Daz, which we usually do make a lot of them, If something on the model can move in real life we make it so. If it's something like a end table with a drawer we will rig it to open and close but we will also add in a couple others to allow the drawer to tilt up and down so you can imitate the natural motion of opening a drawer. We try to cater to those who like animating and action poses/scenes. It usually only takes 15 minutes to add in a few bones so it's not a waist of time or money. If it's a very complicated piece then it's a toss-up, but we still most of the time rig it.
I hope most users appreciate when PAs help communicate issues people generally don't know about, and add some perspective to what's going on.
There's a lot of this stuff that would never be obvious unless you were 'behind the scenes', and there's no reason anyone would be expected to understand it without more information.
Call me insensitive but I'm not here to empathize with DAZ and the PAs as to the struggles and needs of their respective business models. I'm not going to purchase substandard products here, or anywhere else for that matter, just because it's all the vendor in question is willing or able to produce. And it's not unreasonable for customers to provide feedback in that regard, both to the vendor and to other customers. DAZ does not allow reviews on product pages, so the forums are really the only place here to give such feedback. I have spent thousands of dollars here, as have others, and I would say that I'm satisfied with probably about 95% of what I've purchased. But there are occassional issues (such as the one presented in this thread) that are problematic and deserve solutions, not explanations of why I should settle for less.
Yep, which is the purpose. Just understanding and not a critisim or argument.
The thing is, "the point where price equals use value" is different for different people. A product you would not buy because it doesn't have enough details for you might be perfectly valuable for a lot of other customers.
The market for Daz products is small. If spending a few more days adding all the details needed to trigger an extra sale from you does not also brring enough other extra sales to recoup that time, then from a business point of view it wasn't worth it. Sad, but unfortunately true.
I totally understand how frustrating that can be to be part of a minority of customers who would want extra features. I'm a 3DL user and almost no PA provides 3DL materials anymore nowadays, which is definitely not what I would like. Unfortunetely we 3DL users are now a minority and catering to us is not cost-effective anymore for a lot of vendors.
Your feedback is definitely valid and useful. However don't be surprised if all PAs don't jump on it.
as others have pointed out, none of the PAs here defending modeling choices are the ones that are producing the subpar work.
The vast majority create stuff I never could.
but
there are at least 2 for sure I avoid at nearly all costs, the exception being if something like PC+ for the day for example and then I nearly always regret spending that!
Those products come up time and time again in the forum and certainly not just me whining.
My more specific point in this is that it is logical that if you have two products, one with 50 props, and one with 5, and they both cost the same amount, one would expect a different level of polish and features per prop between the two.
One person might need a quick warehouse filled with stuff, whereas another person needs a few detailed props for a forklift operator closeup.
People have different needs in products, and it's not 'wrong' to build a product around a certain scope.
Props that are built with less detail or functionality don't mean a product is inherently worse. I mean, maybe the product is just terrible, but it's also possible it just doesn't suit your purposes.
Like a lack of working doors. Or toilet seats. ;)
Working toilet seats & doors are good. Non-working items less good. Absence entirely of toilet seats & doors is the sort of thing that is considered really below minimum quality in my book. I regret to say, I have seen it.
Regards,
Richard.
Well, there's the question, RichardandTracy... if one product has a working toilet seat and door, and another does not but has 20x as many items... does that seem a reasonable variation?
I mean, personally, I would tend to get the first, but I can imagine people who might prefer the second. (I mean, if you are trying to furnish an entire apartment, buying 10 different products to do so might seem a bit much!)
I understand the frustration of being burned by expectation. There is a difference that needs to be made though.
On the one hand there's being a victim of misinformation (when a product doesn't deliver what it stated) and then there's being a victim of expectation (when a product promises something and doesn't delievered based on the customer's interpretation of that promise). While both can result in dissappointment and frustration, one is measurable, objective and even punishable (false advertising). The other is highly subjective and, as such, unmeasurable.
In this case, if the product never stated that it was rigged, then the product delivered what it stated. If the PA had promised it was rigged and it wasn't, then that's another matter entirely. Keep in mind that the return policy is also there for a reason and everyone's welcome to use it.
Having said that, I would like to take a moment to argue something that has been said in this thread. Criticism that's not constructive becomes destructive and is not at all helpful to anybody. It would only serve to annoy the one being critiziced. Being polite takes more effort but it goes a long way in building a conversation and even, sometimes, reaching an aggreemeent. One should NEVER underestimate the importance of empathizing and being careful with what we say/write, especially when it comes to critiques. You never know what the person on the other end is going through, after all. And it's just good manners too.
A good excersize is to write down your comment then stop for a second and switch places with the one recieving the comment. How would you feel if someone said that to you (about your render or your work, for example) and then adjust as necessary. ;) Also, ask yourself if your comment would be helpful or it's just a way for you to vent your frustration.
Other than that, I am a PA but I'm also a customer and I've come to expect certain things of the store which has kept me from being frustrated:
Those are the ones I can think of at the moment ;).
Both have their value.... I (personal preferrence) would be rather inclined to pay more for the one with the working toilet, while the 10 background clutter props would be nice, but only get the thing into my cart when the price hits the "PC+ for a day" category.
In fact during the last couple "PC+ for a day" quite a few products that feature room setups that I think of as - at least - unpractical didn't jump into my cart, even each of them would have added about 20+ more props to my prop pool. Mainly because my funds are limited and because there were other products available that offered more for the bang than "just a bunch of static props". Doesn't that make those products bad per se, but they end on a way lower slot in my "got to have to buy them" scale... If the rooms weren't such architectural nightmares (or phantasies, depending on the POV) AND the props weren't static, this would be completely different.
And yes, I've got also a couple PAs "blacklisted" here and at other shops whose products are for me not worth buying at any price, as I would have to have to invest way too much time to get them "working" for needs.
Toilets and doors are one thing, but when talking about tools, it isn't unreasonable to expect at least one of each type to be such that it can be parented to a hand and used as a tool.
If they are a Daz Original and the product is meant to be in the hand and not at least parented maybe submit a ticket because for the last 2-3 yrs now, we've been made to either parent or do hand poses for it. Well in our case they made us do hand poses. That isn't however a guidline on brokered products. However they could've changed things again. I know I haven't been told any different.
I think that the OP was asking to be informed about whether props are rigged or just static lumps of digital mesh. I have so many things in my library that I bought on a whim, thinking that I could possibly see that item in a scene but it rests in my Library for months until the day I remember - oh yes, I have one of those - only to find that it is of no use because it doesn't open and close.
Yes, that would be nice, and an extra selling point. Did the product decrption or promos say that though? Unless it did, I certainly wouldn't expect it.
You've just caused me to do a toilet audit of my content.
Fully working seat and lid =1
Working lid, no seat = 1
Lid welded shut = 2
Whole toilet welded to the wall and other fittings as one giant object = 1
That should give designers something to go on.
I do feel in this sort of situation - and it sounds like a cop-out, I know - there is no hard and fast answer, it's for the buyer to make the choice in the light of their own individual circumstances.
I am notoriously 'frugal', and am in a position to make my own dumb props if I need them, so I personally put a lower value on such things. I find rigged items more challenging to create by a big margin, so tend to put a higher value on them. All of which means in the hypothetical situation you have postulated, of the two options, I'd probably go for few but rigged. Though, as a result of my aforementioned 'frugality', I'd actually be more likely to say 'Maybe later' and look at something else... ;)
It also really depends on the product.
When it's a big room with a ton of props, then generally speaking, no, I won't expect any of them to be rigged in any way, unless specifically stated otherwise. In such a case, I see a cabinet as aesthetical roomdressing, not as an interactable asset beyond being able to pose my figure on top of it.
However, when the product is something like "5 modern cabinets", then I expect a lot more from it, as the product is focussing on the object type, so that would imply a bit more depth into the subject, an asset of better quality and more use than cabinets found in "Modern Livingroom #37". So, then, I'd expect some rigging and doors and drawers to open/close, even if this wasn't specifically mentioned anywhere. What I'd expect of "5 modern cabinets", is for them to be suitable replacements for, and even improvements over, the cabinets found in "Modern Livingroom #37".
Generally speaking, I would strongly advise designers to at least rig doors leading into or out of rooms, and make them open/close. Just as I'd advise designers of building exteriors to make doors and windows open/close, and include the inside of all outer walls in their design. Anyone can easily add inner walls and floors to an exterior structure. But the outer walls, with the windows in the right shape and position takes way less effort for the designer than for the user, but exponentially increases the actual usefulness of the product.
this could be because of a limitation of DAZ studio too
Other softwares have better import options with objects split into meshes and of course rigged FBX import
Softwares like Carrara
Not so DAZ studio
, your obj imports as one mesh, FBX mangles up if any rigging applied
All too much work for some PAs I guess
Daz Studio imports groups, if present, which can be used to help place bones and fill weight maps (especially for non-organic models).
That's a very logical approach. I've never heard you whine about not making a living at this. In fact, I believe you've said you make a very good living at it, so I think you are one of the PAs doing it right. Keep up the good work!
if it was that easy, we wouldn't have PAs (who take the trouble to do a good job) jumping in here defending those who create sets that are all one fixed prop
or worse not even proportionally scaled for a human as one who's stuff I won't touch is guilty of
Learn to use the tools in DS like the Geometry Editor then all that matters is does the product look nice and is the price right.
...and is it worth my time (which could spend otherwise, maybe for earning money?) to attempt to fix stuff that could have been probably easier and faster fixed by the PA while making the product?!?
Have a perfect example for that: got me a vehicle at Rendo yesterday, which came with a nice set of textures... but utterly no lighting. Not for the front lights, interior lights, tachometer (or any other instruments) - just zero... stated this in the review and the PA answered "it was not intended for night scenes". Which means that my money is probably not intended to end in their pocket anywhen in the future.
I think what we the customers are really asking for underneath all the complaints is transparency. If you want to put out a collection of static props, that's fine, but we should know that when we buy it. Maybe it should be specifically mentioned if there are rigged props, so we can safely assume props are static if there is no mention...to make the descriptions easier. I mean, we can safely assume a chair isn't going to be rigged or a table or a sofa, but we're left to guess on anything with a door, drawer, lid, etc. It's almost like we're expected to buy products first before we find out what's in them. The same thing should be said for providing wireframe images. Other sites do it, but here only a few vendors offer to show us the geometry beneath the textures. Again, it's transparency. Transparency up front goes a long way to soothing a lot of the complaints that come up because we're kept in the dark on what we're buying before we get it.