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And let me just say I appreciate you for this. And from your perspective, I'm also way way more likely to pay the higher price for it than wait for it to fall in the $1.99 bargain bin if at all. So that's more $ for you.
Might be a wee bit problematic for those PAs who don't "moving parts" products to then compete with those PAs who do "moving parts" and ask the same prices for the products.
So for me there's the rule: "If noting is said in the description about doors/drawers/whatnots opening/moving the price has be really, really, REALLY low... best in the $ 1.99 region"
Today's spotlight item is a nice example how it should be done. https://www.daz3d.com/ultralight-m ;
The moving parts are rigged and the sliders do have a comprehensable naming. And that is for roughly above $1 for PC+ members.
I think it's legitimate to ask for a certain amount of information about what is included, but there should also be a degree of not assuming on the part of customers. If the list of included items doesn't include any information about poses or movement, and neither do any of the promos... don't assume that there are all these functions and uses that aren't listed. Or don't be shocked that it's not there.
As to the broader issue of what products should have in terms of functionality, well, I figure it's like any tool; each tool is optimized for different functions. There is a legitimate tradeoff between lots of static props in a robust complete environment vs. a smaller number of rigged/complex props, at the same price point. It's like plants and natural environments; sometimes you want 'hero trees' that are intricately detailed and have loads of polygons and possibly morphs, and sometimes you want very simple figures you can have 10,000 instances of in the background.
Background images, hdris, and billboard items are obviously useful, but they are just a few items in a well-rounded suite of tools. Trying to make one tool work in every instance is unnecessarily handicapping yourself.
LMAO. based on my modeling experience it should stay the same price and then charge more for the rigging option
Matte paintings is a whole different thing. What I'm talking about is an actual painted BACKDROP - like the painted backdrops in 19th century theatrical stage plays. These background paintings are something like 100 feet wide by 30 feet tall. The movie set and props and actors are all in front of the backdrop. Matte paintings and green-screen are special effects. https://www.facebook.com/150257071698660/photos/the-forbidden-planet-backdrop-and-the-former-mgmscenic-arts-department-as-they-l/1473096712748016/
https://www.austinchronicle.com/arts/2021-02-12/the-art-of-the-hollywood-backdrop-provides-a-close-up-on-cinemas-scenic-paintings/
..indeed the city backdrop is a photo where I masked out the sky to use a HDR dome skydome. The trick is getting the sun angle and luminosity to match.
Sometimes I have it in the description, but often I just show it in the promos ... and sometimes I forget (but I really should put it in both as it seems to be a selling point). I often worry that my descriptions are too verbose and/or dry but I guess it's better to over-inform than under
You're one of the PAs who at least give those details somewhere in the promo.
And descriptions can't be "too verbose" imho.
From my experience as a customer, I am only ready to pay what something is worth for me. And the worth is defined by how well something fits my needs in relation to a) the amount of money in my wallet and/or b) the time I might would have to invest to get that item to really work as I need it to (= time spent for making door open for example).
Some people seem to forget that not all of us make money with their renders, so the amount of money available to be spend for a "hobby" differs quite a lot between the different people using DAZ.
Photo backgrounds dictate your lighting. 3D props do not. I always much rather have a 3D prop for a background that I can light any way I want. Then again, most of the issues mentioned here regarding static props seem to be centered on contemporary sets, and folks who render animation, and I don't really do either, so I guess I'm not effected nearly as much.
I think it's an advantage that you can adjust the lighting on the 3D objects without affecting the background when you're using the built in DS backdrop. If you use photos with good lighting there's no need to adjust that. And you can darken the photo as much as you want directly in DS, if needed. Some quick samples (not meant to look good, just for illustration) - on the first the (rather dark) photo has not been changed, but the light on the character has been toned down (Environment Intensity 0.15) to match the photo. On the second the photo has been darkened and the light on the character has default strenght (Environment Intensity 1.0). EDIT: Added another using a different photo.
That's my point and a critique to DAZ pricing (I have no clue how it works or who sets the price). As a costumer, if I buy X for $20 and it comes with all bells and whistles, is not outrageous for me to buy another similar product Y for $20 and expect it to come with all the bells and whistles. I have issues when they don't.
I have to admit that I often fall prey of DAZ's sales strategy, which is give you a small window of time to buy something out of thousand of items at a relatively low price but without being able to do an educated decision due to lack information or time. Maybe no one else struggles with that, but I cenrtainly do. Especially for those with several hours of time difference where sales start/finish at inconvenient times.
Ultimately, I'm responsible for taking the risk when there is not enough information in their description and decide to do the purchase.
And btw I'm not trying by any means to undermine or insult any artist or their products. I don't have 1/100th of their talent, nor I pretend to suggest that what they're doing is easy, but I tihnk DAZ needs to come with a better pricing method that takes into account functionality, aesthetics, versatiilty, etc withina certain category.
Cheers.
I like to have information at hand so I can make a well informed decision with my purchase. At the end of the day, if you put a bunch of words, we still have the choice to either read it or skip it. Some artits (as you do) don't mention it in the descrption but at least show pictures with the open drawers, cabinets etc. For me that's enough.
Having said that... What I think is important information, someone else may find it irrelevant for what they're looking for. Everyone is different and have different interests and whatnot. The key is to strike the balance in the information provided.
Or perhaps DAZ should provide artists with a template to fill out that include key aspects of the product that can be used as a guideline.
Cheers.
Personally, I find static backdrops with baked-in light being too limiting. Unless they're really distant landscapes. Even then they force the sunlight direction. If I want predetermined lightning I find outdoor HDRIs much less cumbersone (at the very least they're changing the fill light direction automatically when I'm rotating the dome). Anything close to the character preferably should be a 3d object.
Sure, they have their limitations but they're good if you want realism, plus the use very little resources compared to a similar 3D environment, and don't slow down rendering.
It's worth noting that there is some semantic vagueness that can lead to division when not recognized.
And it's about what 'worth' means.
Something can totally be not worth the price for the value you will get out of it. This is distinct from the worth of the actual item in some more absolute sense; given the amount of work and skill employed to make something, is the price fair?
Some debates fall into confusion about which definition of 'worth' is being used. And this is further muddied by the fact that some people believe that the ONLY measure of worth is what value customers get out of it.
The problem is you are mixing something that looks real, with something that is not. In the beach photo it is clearly a 3D character, and so looks really odd when placed in a real background. To me the first two looks like they were added by photoshop, and the last one looks off for the reason I stated. Yes the character is casting a shadow on the beach, but as mentioned above that that does not match the sun position in the photo, as can be seen by the rock behind the girl, where the side facing the camera is all in shadow.
Car scenes are an example of where some flexibility should be kept in mind.
The example of Google Street View and a car shot is a good one (although, if you are taking Street View, it becomes a derivative work, I think... so the intellectual property aspect of taking someone else's image is a complication... it's "free", but I would hesitate using that for a paid project).
I was just looking at the Fermion racing bundle. (Yes, yes, the car isn't a real car. If you flipped one of those, the driver would be a red smear, etc. It's still a fun bundle in a hobby that IMO doesn't need to be about realism.) How are you going to do a track scene? There's no Daz set that comes close to a Nürburgring, or Laguna Seca, or whatever. Even if there was, a race day setup with audience in the stands? (Even with full 3d stadium props for a soccer pitch, that's a challenge.)
A composite shot with photos and props can be useful to bring it together. (And stuff like Depth of Field (even simulated DoF) or motion blur can fade enough of the background look to blend it together with your 3D assets.)
There are complications (fair use, the type of project you're doing), so unlimited use of Google Image Search is not recommended, of course.
Could you elaborate on "shadow casters" please, as this is a term I do not understand in this context.
Thanks
If I need to render a complicated background and it can't fit into VRAM at all, chances are I will render the vista first and then use this as a static background. This way I know the light direction and the distance blur will match with the character and the foreground props.
Chances are it's still going to take less time than trying to match the light direction with the premade background.
Invisible objects used to mask parts of the background and to catch the shadows cast by the objects in the scene.
I agree with what you say. And is not an easy equation to solve in my opinion. But just beacuse it's complicated doesn't mean it should be left in the open unsolved. All products have values, that's for sure but its value varies depending who's gonna use it and, as you say, who made it. But I insist DAZ should come with a set of rules or minimum amount of X features for items to qualify in this Y price range, etc. And I reckon I have no clue what I'm talking about as I don't make products and perhaps DAZ already has something in place.
But back to the title of the thread, and as I mentioned before, many costumers would benefit if the artists are open and honest with their product description. I've read some artists explicitly stating X or Y thing is NOT rigged. And I applaud and appreciate that. I don't like when someone withhold relevant information that can be the determining factor on a purchase. It feels dishonest and shady even if that wasn't the artists intention. But again, that's just my opinion and many others may have zero issues with the current practice.
Also, for me is tricky to convert the price of a digital product with the time and effort from the artist. The reality is, once it's done, the distribution is unlimited. You maybe spent 50 hours in a product that you sell at $50, but that doesn't translate to $1/hr (ignoring DAZ's cut), because if you sell a thousand of those then you made much more for the same effort. But for a costumer point of view, the experience is completely different. Re-wording what i said before, if two products in the same category look similar based on the promo pictures and are marketed at the same price, as a costumer is easy to assume you will get the same or similar features. When there are significant differences between the prodcuts, then you question the real worth of the product with lesser features.
I feel I'm repeating myself... I'll try to avoid it in the future. no promises though.
Cheers.
I can understand drawers and doors not opening, making them open is extra work, but I have hard time understanding when items that have clearly been separately modeled, have been integrated into one mesh, like a desk lamp with the desk or the desk integrated to the floor.
My best guess is scenes are modeled as separate objects but then everything is exported at once. More than one modeling application does that unless you explicitly mark exported .obj as selected geometry only.
Also, a timesaver because objects imported into DAZ separately must be saved separately too.
"Worth" is defined differently depending on quite a few baselines....
And "what value I get out of something" is, for me and probably quite a few other customers, the ONLY thing that defines the worth of something for ME (and maybe some other people, too).
I guess, like with so many other things, that it depends on the eyes that see. It was just some quick renders for demonstration anyway, and not an attempt to create something super-realistic. Personally I don't care much for photorealism actually, I just want things to look good, and for most of the renders I've made using photo backgrounds I haven't intentionally tried to make the characters look real.
...true, but unlike Carrara or Vue, Daz is not capable of supporting the creation of large scale environments without the viewport seriosuly bogging down. I tend to use as much geometry as possible in my scenes and only resort to photo backdrops when I want a scene set in a particular real world location, like that image I attached above. In that scene everything including the tree line in the background and the helicopter in the sky are mesh objects. I also had objects behind the camera to reflect in the windows of the shelter so the scene was still pretty heavy poly wise.
The only HDRIs I use are sky based ones with no ground scenery
BTW that scene was rendered in 3DL, not Iray, using IBL Master for the GI component and two AoA Advanced Distant Lights (one under the ground plane for simulating bounce lighting). Render time: about 14 min (would have likely taken a couple hours with UE).
...on occasion I go to the pro content sites sometimes to find something inexpensive that I need which isn't sold here or over at Rendo. Even there a good member of models are unrigged, including ones that are quite expensive. For example when I was looking for an accurate concert hall grand piano model the best one I found (about 125$) was unrigged.
Meanwhile Ness's Harpsichord, (13.95$ in the store here) is exquisitely detailed with full interior that included the strings as well as rigged keys, lid, and stool. Another is Protozoon's Grand Piano, which is a beautiful replica of a true full sized grand piano that is also beautifully detailed (even to the frame and cross stringing), Like Ness's Harpsichord. it also has articulated lid, keys, and pedals and is a fraction of the cost of the one I found on the Pro site above (currently on sale at 6.28$ for PC members [20,95$ full price]).
If a product description doesn't say the doors and/or the windows open, I assume they don't open, and I don't buy the product. Same with lighting - although if a scene looks reasonably easy to light, I may buy the priduct even if it doesn't include lighting.
I also hate playing the 'does the door open' game on Daz too.
I'm waiting and wondering why and when will this thread will be locked for "Personal Attacks" or "No longer useful" excuses, etc...
Like so many others.