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Hello everyone,
Thanks for the comments, I really appreciate it! I will try and answer those who had questions for me.
PerttiA:
Thank you for your reply on my 3060 card vs 1080ti issue, I really appreciate it. To answer your question in private, I reinstalled my 1080ti last weekend and have been rendering scenes in DAZ Studio using IRAY for years now. In the rendering settings, I have my 1080ti card selected not the CPU as that tends to stall my computer. It does take 5 1/2 hours to render complex scenes with 2 G8/G3 characters which I do overnight. But, using HDRIs and 1 -2 G8/G3 figures, the 1080ti renders much faster, anywhere from 10-1 1/2 hrs. And to be honest Perttia, you are the first person who said that my 3060 was much better then my 1080ti. Most of the people who have commented on my post think that I wasted my $1000 on it. That is why I removed the 3060 for my old 1080ti again. And as far as your statement about benchmarks, I used this benchmark site that says the 1080ti is better then the 3060.
https://gpu.userbenchmark.com/Compare/Nvidia-RTX-3060-vs-Nvidia-GTX-1080-Ti/4105vs3918
Most of the stats listed here point towards the 1080ti being much faster then the 3060. I am a novice at GPUs Perttia, so I figured that a more updated card from 2021 vs a older 2017 one would be much better. Boy, was I wrong...
Richard Haseltine:
Thank you for your comment and questions, I really appreciate it! I reinstalled my old 1080ti card again last weekend and I am running DAZ Studio 4.15 Pro with Nvidia Graphics Driver 496.76. (which I think is the latest one) I only render using the 1080ti card not the CPU which it does render a full scene, two G8/G3 figs, clothes, hair, accessories and maybe a house in 5 1/2 hrs. Oh, and I also render in 3820x3056 (I have my PC connected to my 65 inch Smart TV) I also render using 99% render convergence ratio, 10% quality max samples 10,000 and max time (sec) 20,000. I render real high specs because most scenes are to my liking before it hits 100% completion Richard. I hope that this info helps you understand what is happening.
Wonderland:
Thank you for your comment, I appreciate it! Wow, I don't know why you are having trouble rendering in IRAY using a 1080ti GPU Wonder. I have been rendering G8.1/G8/G3 scenes now for a long time and rarely does it crash for me. I am using DAZ Studio 4.15 and only render using my 1080ti card, not the CPU as it causes my computer to severely stall. I am using the latest driver for this older 1080ti card too 496.76 and so far, no issues with rendering the Gen 8 or 3s Wonder. I can render a full complex scene, 2-3 G8/G3 figs, clothes, hair, accessories and a house in 5 1/2 hours. I am not sure if that is way too long, but I also render at 3820x3056 since my PC is connected to my '65 SmartTV. I hope this info helps you understand what is going on on my end and I hope that somehow you can get your 1080ti card to render without crashing Wonder! :)
It is your choice and all and I respect that.. The thing with that benchmark site as far as I can tell is that it is mainly aimed at gamers, more than anything else..
Anyway the issue now is that the power you want would either be the 3080ti or 3090 (both expensive) and would not bother with the 3070's as they do not have enough vram on them..
But it could also be a case of wait till next year to see what Nvidia release, as there are rumors of 16gig cards supposedly coming.. And there is also the rumored RTX 4000 series Lovelace architecture GPU's that are supposedly coming out sometime in 2022..
So there are better GPU's coming, just a case of wait and see..
https://www.digitaltrends.com/computing/nvidia-ada-lovelace-twice-as-fast-and-power-hungry/
https://www.tomsguide.com/news/nvidia-lovelace-rumored-specs-what-we-know-so-far-about-geforce-rtx-30-series-successor
That site is about gaming performance, rendering Iray is completely different and there is only one source of benchmark information for Iray rendering and that is the benchmark thread here on this forum, but it is your choise.
The Ada Lovelace is exactly what I've decided to do, knowing I am going to need to camp out at the Best Buy on release with the money on hand to buy an RTX 4090 instead of the normal way of just showing up whenever but it beats sitting on my hind and letting scalpers pull the same routine they've been doing on this go round.
For me, "...the 1080ti renders much faster, anywhere from 10-11/2 hrs..." is bordering on inoperable to me, and 5 1/2 hrs is not even close to acceptable. I render scenes at 2560/1440 with 3+ G8F/M, complex scenes with a ton of props and many 4K textures and nothing takes more than about 50 minutes at most with my 2080, which is about the same as a 3060. I think you should be thinking about how you set your scenes up rather than worrying about GPUs, particularly with regard to optimising the lighting for your scenes if you're waiting half a day to render them. If it's taking that long I seriously wonder if the GPU is being used at all, or you've pumped up the render settings to rediculous levels, or your scenes have been set up completely wrongly. I assume you are using a 3060 RTX as there's no such thng as a 3060 GFX.
There's a distinct lerning curve with using DS and Iray and it's anything but a plug-and-play scenerio. Lots of things need to be tweaked and adjusted and lighting optimised to greatly reduce render times. I suggest you first familiarise yourself with that process and forget the GPU thing.
It would be weird if they're actually calling the next series Ada Lovelace, because they haven't used first names on any of their previous series. She is a great pick for a namesake, though.
You mean like Linda?
Not at all like Linda, although I suppose you could call them both pioneers of a sort.
...avoid.
Just tried to configure one with a 12GB RTX 3060, 64 GB system memory a, 8 core Ryzen 7 5800 and 2 drives (both M2s which take up 2 PCIe slots) with no extra storage drive available. The other concern is the Motherboard, PSU and Case none of which are specified. The best configuration I could get cost about 2,510 USD, way too overpriced. (I'd also avoid McAfee for the AV I had a system that had it get infected). You don't need liquid cooling for a Ryzen 7 5800x (ore evne a 5900X) as it has a TDP of 105 W. My old i7 930 had a TDP of 130 w and air cooling was more than sufficient.
I upgraded a system from 16GB to 32GB the speed increases were not where you would expect.
There was no increase in render speeds!
It was the general use and interface that was noticeably faster. The file 'Open', 'Save' and 'New' were also faster. I put that down to Windows itself, which realy seemed to have benefited from 32GB.
The only graphical speedup was rotations and zooms in the Preview, all the previews not just Iray.
When I was first trained in Pascal as our training wheel programming language, they taught us Ada too, but they didn't teach us it was a computer scientist's 1st name and so many computer science graduates know nothing about the actual history of computer science, let alone Ada Lovelace.
Some info from the Britannica website they have Ada Lovelace or full name Ada King, countess of Lovelace original name Augusta Ada Byron, Lady Byron.. https://www.britannica.com/biography/Ada-Lovelace
Talk about a long name.. :) On the Wiki https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ada_Lovelace
She is considered to be the first computer programmer..
Ok.
Then what is the better answer? I'm all ears.
This is what I found:
According to YT and other reviews, the Omens use Coolermaster for PSU. Not sure about mobo. But here's the problem: Between Gamer Nexus and other reviewers, all the other prebuilts have problems and everything is overpriced now. OTOH, good luck getting parts to build your own! I'm ready to buy something. Bluntly stated, my current system won't really run some of what I want to run, at least not very well. I specced out 64GB RAM, 12GB 3060, 5900x 30L with 2TB fastest SSD etc for $2710. I did not add a storage drive because I want a 4TB drive, and I'll have to buy that separately. Also, I found various reviews that indicate HP is (finally!) doing it right, at least with the 30L. The 25L apparently runs hot. Bu at least the system is reasonably well-engineered and well assembled.
Other limitations: Can't get 3090 with AMD processor. Must buy Intel 165W processor. Can't get 128GB RAM, and the 3090 option is beyond my budget anyway.
These are reviews:
https://www.pcmag.com/reviews/hp-omen-30l
https://www.techradar.com/reviews/hp-omen-30l
https://www.tomsguide.com/reviews/hp-omen-30l-gaming-desktop
As all the gaming forums will say, the ideal position is to get a Nvidia founders card and then build your own machine round it. All other options are pretty horrible.
Hello everyone,
Thank you for the replies and comments once again, I appreciate all of the feedback! And first off, OUCH, what a terrible bit of misinformation that I gave you on how my 1080ti renders with just a few G8/G3F figures and one HDRI background. I didn't meant to say that it takes 10/11 1/2 hrs to render, that should have said '10 to 15 mins' depending on if I let it finish at 100% percent. (which I rarely do because my render settings are so high that at 60% the picture is usually finished) My mistake fred 9803! And yes, I do understand what you are saying that I should focus more on what is happening my scenes first and foremost. I have a band tendency to just go with the defaults of that scene rather then play around with lighting. (sometimes I add my own light shades because the rooms don't have good lighting) But yes, 5 1/2 hrs is what it normally takes on my old 1080ti card. (and my mistake, I meant to RTX 3060 not GTX) But, I plan on reinstalling the 3060 card this weekend, no sense in letting a $1000 card sit in the box, I might as well use it and make the best of a bad situation.
Wow, I didn't even think that those benchmarks were specifically made for gaming and not IRAY rendering Perttia. I also wasn't aware that there were bencmark comparisons posted here between the cards. If I had known that, I would have looked at those numbers, bah! How can I find them link here to the benchmark for my 3060 RTX card? (do I put it in search?) But, I also plan on reinstalling my 3060 card. Again, it makes no sense in sitting on an expensive card, might as we use it and see how the numbers differ from my 1080ti card.
Thank you all for your comments, much appreciated!
This is the thread with rendering benchmarks. I hope you can find what you're looking for. https://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/341041/daz-studio-iray-rendering-hardware-benchmarking/p1
..."off the shelf" builds are generally not best suited to 3D. They often skimp on something whether it be memory, the PSU, cooling or other components. Most gaming systems come with 16 GB even if they have a 12 GB card because the card is primarily used for game processing not 3D straight rendering. For 3D rendering, system memory is needed to hold the scene open while the card does the heavy lifting. Again, the average ratio of VRAM to system memory is 1:3, meaning 1 GB of RAM on average will take up to 3 GB of memory or more depending on scene elements and effects (some people have reported scenes taking up to 32, 48, or more GB of system memory). If system memory is exceeded the process and programme will likely crash.
@ Torquinox: The best suggestion would be to go with a custom build house if you are not into DIY (usually you can get a break on the GPU price than buying one yourself). The other route would be to order the parts through a site like PC Part Picker (their System Builder even flags components that may have conflicts or special concerns) and have a local reputable tech assemble and test the it. True, it will cost extra but you'll get a system more appropriate to your needs. The one caveat with this second option is the GPU as yes, you are having to purchase it separately while a build house can get them at a better price or may already have a supply of them. In that case I would put your name on lists with Best Buy EVGA and other manufacturers or tech outlets. That's what I did and though it took a while, I got my 3060 at a very reasonable price direct form the manufacturer.
HP has been known in the past to sometimes scrimp on some components (like the motherboard and sometimes memory) on consumer systems particularly when no brand name is listed in the specs or options in given the their configurator..I consider them a good company for busines, office and scientific systems (which has always been their primary market) as well as maybe gaming. They do offer a line of dedicated workstations, but these are not inexpesnive. On their notebooks they are known to sometiems slder the CPU and even memory to the motherboard.
The other advantage of avoiding "off the shelf" prebuilt systems (even ones that allow a little customisation like the HP Omen) is you are still very limited in selection of components and should the need to upgrade arise later you may find yourself with a dsdisappointment. It is is preferable and more cost effective in the logn run to be able to make upgrades to a system as workloads demand than to have to buy a completely new one. I've upgraded my now 9 year old rendering system several times over the years but have hit it's limits To upgrade to Windows 11 specs I'm looking at around 972$ for the components which include the addition of a 500 GB M.2 SSD for the boot drive a 12 core Ryzen9 5900X CPU an ASUS ROG Strix B450 MB, and 64 GB of system memory. A totally new system with the similar specs would be well out of my budget. I will just swap in my 2 TB SATA SSD and storage HDD, along with the PSU RX3060. in the same case.
I would look back through some of the proposals here, even from the build house in the UK to get an idea of systems more suited to 3D work. Yes there are prebiuilt graphics workstations but those are way out of the budget for most 3D artists like us..
Granted, I am one of those "DIY-ers".
Thanks Kyoto Kid and others. One would think, considering the prices paid for this stuff, that at least the assembly would be competent. That appears to be the most severe limitation on the prebuilts. I've built systems before. Luckily, my builds worked out ok. But why should I, the end user, assume all the risk if something goes wrong. Why should I, the end user, have to gain expertise in the hardware itself before buying any of it? As an artist, I don't care about any of that. I've already wasted too much time on that. I want to whip out my credit card, place my order, and get a system that immediately allows me to get on with my work. All this other stuff is hardware fetishism and a waste of time. The work is making art, not being a system builder. And yet, based on all those videos, it appears that supervising incompetence in the computer build and then duking it out with customer service is par for the course and just another pointless time tax. I am disgusted with the whole thing.
Selling computers is about making money and if you can use cheaper components in places that the average user doesn't even understand, it's more money to you - Just slap some cheap leds on it and a CPU or GPU that has street credibility and the average buyer has no clue. The only way to prevent becoming the victim, is to learn what is important and what to use.
I have personal knowledge of a case where saving some cents off the price of thousand chips, resulted in a very good product turning into something that never worked right, but the beancounters got what they wanted.
Thank you all for your input. I will carefully consider what has been said here. I think, at least for me, the solution is clear.
Ooooh,
Thank you Quasar for that benchmark link, that is what I was looking for! I really appreciate your help, I will check out the link now. :)
...I originally felt the same back when I needed to make the jump from a 32 bit notebook to 64 bit desktop as I was tired of render crash after render crash (I could barely run Daz 3.1 let alone 4.0, and avoided UE like the plague), I spent months shopping around for a complete system but found the off the shelf systems I was seeing were woefully insufficient in one area or another for 3D work. Most systems were more well suited for a home office or maybe lower level gaming, but nothing whth the horsepower needed even for running 3DL with UE (a GPU didn't help then). Granted back then we didn't have a plethora of gaming PCs and dealers about. at the time custom build houses generally focused on more expensive professional based systems like for CAD, engineering, and enterprise use.. So having little to no knowledge about building a PC, I sat myself down in my spare time after work to research and learn how to design and build a system, how to choose the right components for the job, avoid conflicts, and do it all on a budget (I was working then but still in the low income bracket). True we didn't have the issue with GPU pricing as we do today but in the end after all the research and finally ordering the parts I had the system I wanted and needed sitting on my desk.(well, next to it).
That said.
Today there are a number of online build services where you can get a PC designed to the specs you want and it arrives all put together and tested. iBuyPower PC, Origin PC, CyberPower, Digital Storm. and AVA direct are a few of the more well known names that ready build and test systems that you spec out. Getting something that may seem a great deal only to have it turn out to be a dead end when software demands more out of hardware, will not only be frustrating but discouraging. This is why after reviewing those HP systems I said "don't bother" as I could see that happening.
I'm not sure what your budget is (mine is pretty tight as I am on a fixed retirement pension that only gets minimal living cost adjustments per year) but I would shop around at a few of those places I named above as I'm sure you will find something much better and more suitable. Again also keep in mind some of the configuration suggestions made here and in other threads to base a design on.
One small suggestion, don't scrimp on the PSU, that' the heart of your system. Better to have a little extra overhead than Just barely cut it and have it blow out (which can take the rest of the system with it). When Nvidia specifies a minimum PSU total wattage that's exactly what it is, the bare minimum. I usually go at with least 150 w higher if not more than that. Also keep the 1:3 ratio of VRAM to System RAM.in mind as for 3D rendering you need more than what is required to support gaming.
Hi Kyoto Kid,
Thanks for your reply! You've put a lot of good thinking in there! I agree with a lot of what you're saying. I've visited many of the custom configurators, read plenty of reviews, and watched a fair number of YT videos. Many of the builders get dinged for bad customer service. Too many of the builders are called out for shoddy system assembly. Some of the builders only provide 32GB RAM. Other builders only provide Intel processors with NVidia graphics cards. Some of the builders have unbelievable markups on components. As I said, everything is expensive now. Consequently, my budget is a lot more than I want to spend. I'm having a tough time staying within it. I have sticker shock, too.
I am curious where that 1:3 VRAM:RAM requirement comes from. Is it a Daz thing? I looked for reasons why that is, but didn't really find much. I'm not discounting the idea, but it's a hefty system demand compared to what I see in the stores and articles.
With respect to the HP Omen 30L systems, there is no sign that the systems are inadequate except maybe w/respect to cooling. Their case has only 2 fans: The single 120mm intake fan and a single smaller exhaust fan. I think the 120mm mostly benefits the GPU and the liquid cooler compensates for the lack of more fans. The system is loud when it's pushed, and the front fan needs a dust filter. AFAIK, no one has said the 30L system performance is disappointing. I think they ship a lot of those computers. If there were serious, widespread problems, someone would be yelling about them. But I could still be wrong.
Attached result from a test I made some time ago for VRAM and RAM usage.
Case A) was one lightweight G8 figure with lightweight clothing and hair
Case B) was four similar G8 figures with architecture on scene
Case C and D) I started increasing SubD on the figures to see when it would drop to CPU
As you can see, the ratio is even more than 3 to 1
...the 1:3 ratio is based on the experience of others who have been doing this for a while. I notice that the VRAM I'm using is about 40% - 50% of the system memory in use (I don't have anything else open when I'm working in Daz). I only have 24 GB (old hardware) so I'm purposely limiting my scenes until I can make the upgrade I mentioned above. At this time I'm also still rebuilding characters for my writings that I lost in a drive crash a while back. (trying o get the same exact look is a lot tougher than one would think).
I would still look in a different direction than a specific PC brand Save for the aforementioned drive crash and the original PSU that fortunately just blew a capacitor (I say "fortunately" as it didn't affect anything else), my old system has been chugging along pretty reliably all these years. the only reason I'm looking at the upgrade is because more and more developers are dumping Windows 7 (I also is prepared for an upgrade to 128 GB as i am populating only 2 of the 4 DIMM slots with 32 GB modules as a provision for getting my hands on a 3090 or an A5000).
The system currently has a 130 w TDP CPU and a Titan-X neither with liquid cooling. The Titan peaks at between 52 - 62C with its fan set at 70% - 75% (I use MSI Afterburner). The case has a total of seven fans: A 240 mm filtered intake fan on the left side panel by the PCIe slots, two 120 mm vent fans on the top, the standard 120 mm vent fan in the rear and three 120 mm filtered intake fans in front which together provide a boatload of airflow I also have a CoolerMaster CPU cooler with a single fan, 4 heat pipes, and large heat sink (the CPU rarely breaks 60C) The system is also surprisingly quiet when all "buttoned up" (all the case panels in place). and front closed. Even for a GPU that pulls only 170 w two 120 mm fans is pretty minimal, particularly iof you look to add a second 3060 when prices come own or step up to a more powerful card..
One of the other "dings" it gets beside the price for what you get is it also comes with a lot of useless bloatware. That is something you won't get going DIY or with an independent build house. All you'll get is the OS and whatever AV you choose.if they offer one.
I see. Thanks for that!
I saw the benchmark @PerttiA provided w/respect to RAM : VRAM. 64GB on a 12GB GPU seems about right.
Windows 7 is definitely going away.
I have an old CM Storm Sniper case that I used for one of my previous builds. That thing is beastly. It's loaded with fans and sounds like a vacuum cleaner when it's running. I could finally update the innards in that. At least everything will fit inside.
Bloatware is a bother, but I can remove it.
I'm still not thrilled. A new computer should be exciting. Right now, it seems like a tiresome chore. It's looking more and more like I'm going to end up building this thing myself.
...I know that's a bother as well but probably for the best. It's getting more difficult for myself due to my arthritic hands which make it trickier to handle and manipulate small screws, components, and connectors.
I understand! Thanks for your patience and advice, kyoto kid .
..no problem.