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Fiddling with Iray skin settings...

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  • mjc1016mjc1016 Posts: 15,001

    For a bump/displacement map you want greyscale....

  • j cadej cade Posts: 2,310
    nonesuch00 said:
    j cade said:
    nonesuch00 said:
    j cade said:

    for reference here's some relatively shiny skin. Basecoat glossy is default topcoat is my settings (tweaked for less subtle shine than I usually do)

    topcoat weight .35

    topcoat color blank with no maps,

    topcoat roughness .22

    topcoat bump 1.38 and a black and white tiling map of my own creation 9 (though a simple noise map would honestly do) and tiled to various amounts (more tiled on the torso and arms)

    When you say b & w tiling map do you mean a 2 pixel map, one white & one black and you just let DAZ Studio tile it?

     

    Currently I'm using a bump map that I made myself based on some skin reference, but I used to use a texture I created in Photoshop using the noise filter. In both cases the size is around 1000x1000 pixels. I then use irays ability to tile every texture independently. For the head the texture is tiled to something like 8 and the torso and arms 16 (since the head is higher resolution compared to mesh size) of course you could do a smaller map and tile more, but I wouldn't do 2x2 you want some degree of variation.
    j cade said:
     

    OK, I can do that easy enough. Thanks.

    I've noticed in reference photos skin is mottled in variences of the person's main skin color. I'm not talking freckles, moles, hair follicles and such though but I think it's related to distribution of fat and blood vessels under the skin. A map similar to what you're talking about for Top Coat and a noise function seems like it would simulate that effect well but in which layer to put such a map? Ideally I'd make the Albedo very translucent and have a texture map the opposite of a Top Coat, instead like an Under Coat. I guess that's done with Translucency Weight and Translucency Color?

    Honestly a lot of that color variance is more location based (compare the top of your arm to the underside. At least for me, the underside is very even whereas the top is much more varied) unless I was in blender and setting up some crazy stuff in blender with the amount controlled by weight maps, it would still probably be more realistic to control such color variation by traditional non-tiling maps, either in diffuse or translucency color.

  • nonesuch00nonesuch00 Posts: 18,333
    edited April 2016
    j cade said:
    nonesuch00 said:
    j cade said:
    nonesuch00 said:
    j cade said:

    for reference here's some relatively shiny skin. Basecoat glossy is default topcoat is my settings (tweaked for less subtle shine than I usually do)

    topcoat weight .35

    topcoat color blank with no maps,

    topcoat roughness .22

    topcoat bump 1.38 and a black and white tiling map of my own creation 9 (though a simple noise map would honestly do) and tiled to various amounts (more tiled on the torso and arms)

    When you say b & w tiling map do you mean a 2 pixel map, one white & one black and you just let DAZ Studio tile it?

     

    Currently I'm using a bump map that I made myself based on some skin reference, but I used to use a texture I created in Photoshop using the noise filter. In both cases the size is around 1000x1000 pixels. I then use irays ability to tile every texture independently. For the head the texture is tiled to something like 8 and the torso and arms 16 (since the head is higher resolution compared to mesh size) of course you could do a smaller map and tile more, but I wouldn't do 2x2 you want some degree of variation.
    j cade said:
     

    OK, I can do that easy enough. Thanks.

    I've noticed in reference photos skin is mottled in variences of the person's main skin color. I'm not talking freckles, moles, hair follicles and such though but I think it's related to distribution of fat and blood vessels under the skin. A map similar to what you're talking about for Top Coat and a noise function seems like it would simulate that effect well but in which layer to put such a map? Ideally I'd make the Albedo very translucent and have a texture map the opposite of a Top Coat, instead like an Under Coat. I guess that's done with Translucency Weight and Translucency Color?

    Honestly a lot of that color variance is more location based (compare the top of your arm to the underside. At least for me, the underside is very even whereas the top is much more varied) unless I was in blender and setting up some crazy stuff in blender with the amount controlled by weight maps, it would still probably be more realistic to control such color variation by traditional non-tiling maps, either in diffuse or translucency color.

    OK, you certainly can see the mottled skin tones easier on very pale skin but it's not as easy to see as contrast between tan-untanned or freckles-unfreckled. I used the color selector eye dropper and it was even more subtle and varied than I could see. It's much easier to see if you look directly close at someone's skin. I will experiment with patterns when I try to make a diffuse texture. I think I will try to change the hue of the DAZ diffuse textures I'm using if that's possible...probably make some colors wrong though like certainly the eyebrows. Lol, my last chance at laziness before I try to make my own textures.

    I've taken your earlier advice but instead sans Topcoat Bump and am rendering at Top Coat Roughness 50% and Top Coat Weight 100% and it's very good. It now renders looking like the thin sheen of oil everybody has.

     

    Now when I want rivulets of sweat I will create that Top Coat bump like you said and change the Top Coat Roughness to lower values. Thanks.

    Post edited by nonesuch00 on
  • nonesuch00nonesuch00 Posts: 18,333
    edited April 2016

    OK, so renders after j cade's advice and some of my own 'experiments' and comparing the same figure rendered HDRIs, the last 2 of which where shot by the same photographer at a higher camera resolution that the fellow that made The Hague Beach Stadium HDRI had available. They are from left to right: The Hague Beach Stadium (lowest resolution HDRI), the Annecy Golf Course (near French Alps), Pixar Campus (South Bay of San Francisco in Central California)

    Thanks everybody this will sate my curiousity for a while.

    Girl 7, B-Ball (deleted spectrals).png
    1114 x 891 - 820K
    Girl 7, B-Ball (deleted spectrals - French Golf Course near the French Alps, same photographer as Pixar Campus).png
    1114 x 891 - 1M
    Girl 7, B-Ball (deleted spectrals - Pixar Campus).png
    1114 x 891 - 1M
    Post edited by nonesuch00 on
  • DOrdialesDOrdiales Posts: 32
    edited May 2016

    Some new tutorials that I have just made after reading the Nvidia MDL manual:

    Post edited by DOrdiales on
  • Arnold CArnold C Posts: 740
    edited May 2016
    DOrdiales said:

    Some new tutorials that I have just made after reading the Nvidia MDL manual:

    Very nice, DOrdiales! To be completely exact, the middle picture on your fourth example would need to be titled "transmission" rather than "absorption". The color defined in the "Transmitted Color" parameter is the percentual amount of light which will be transmitted through (coming out the other side) a material if it is of the same thickness as the "Transmitted Measurement Distance". Only the remaining amount, the difference to 1.00, is considered being absorbed.

    When simulating something transparent or translucent, the "Top Coat Color Effect" should be set to "Scatter & Transmit" (df::scatter_reflect_transmit) to have the amount of radiation which doesn't get reflected at the Top Coat being sent to the transmision layer. "Scatter Only"  (df::scatter_reflect) just calculates the amount reflected and the remainder is considered absorbed.

    Just read through the updated MDL Handbook as of 18 April 2016 myself a few days ago. Iray now even supports scattering in full color instead of greyscale only. Yay! Hopefully the people at DAZ get the updated version into Studio. Altough that would mean they'd need to rework their Iray Uber Base. smiley

     

    Post edited by Arnold C on
  • mjc1016mjc1016 Posts: 15,001
    edited May 2016
    Arnold C. said:
    Just read through the updated MDL Handbook as of 18 April 2016 myself a few days ago. Iray now even supports scattering in full color instead of greyscale only. Yay! Hopefully the people at DAZ get the updated version into Studio. Altough that would mean they'd need to rework their Iray Uber Base. smiley

     

    Just downloaded it last night...still haven't read it, but...what version of Iray does it 'go with'.  I haven't quite figured that out, yet.

    Post edited by mjc1016 on
  • nonesuch00nonesuch00 Posts: 18,333
    DOrdiales said:

    Some new tutorials that I have just made after reading the Nvidia MDL manual:

     

    DOrdiales said:

    Some new tutorials that I have just made after reading the Nvidia MDL manual:

    Thanks!

  • DOrdialesDOrdiales Posts: 32

    Some new tutorials that I have just made after reading the Nvidia MDL:

    nonesuch00 said:
    DOrdiales said:

    Some new tutorials that I have just made after reading the Nvidia MDL manual:

     

    DOrdiales said:

    Some new tutorials that I have just made after reading the Nvidia MDL manual:

    Thanks!

     

    You are welcome.

  • DOrdialesDOrdiales Posts: 32
    Arnold C. said:
    DOrdiales said:

    Some new tutorials that I have just made after reading the Nvidia MDL manual:

    Very nice, DOrdiales! To be completely exact, the middle picture on your fourth example would need to be titled "transmission" rather than "absorption". The color defined in the "Transmitted Color" parameter is the percentual amount of light which will be transmitted through (coming out the other side) a material if it is of the same thickness as the "Transmitted Measurement Distance". Only the remaining amount, the difference to 1.00, is considered being absorbed.

    When simulating something transparent or translucent, the "Top Coat Color Effect" should be set to "Scatter & Transmit" (df::scatter_reflect_transmit) to have the amount of radiation which doesn't get reflected at the Top Coat being sent to the transmision layer. "Scatter Only"  (df::scatter_reflect) just calculates the amount reflected and the remainder is considered absorbed.

    Just read through the updated MDL Handbook as of 18 April 2016 myself a few days ago. Iray now even supports scattering in full color instead of greyscale only. Yay! Hopefully the people at DAZ get the updated version into Studio. Altough that would mean they'd need to rework their Iray Uber Base. smiley

     

    Thanks for your comments Arnold (and sorry for my English). I began to made my renders with Octane. In Octane you work with absortion and scattering (and include the three colors!). In documentation they usually talk about absorption (in union with scattering). For that reason to me is more natural to see the transmitted color like its complementary. I know is not the focus in DAZ. Like you say if I use 0.75 in transmitted color (for example in red channel), 0.25 is the percentage of color absorbed in the distance indicated in transmitted color (you have a very good post about it). I think is a semantic question, I prefer use transmission to refer when light pass from one mediun to another (in a general form)... Specific after the way of transmission: translucency or refraction. And finally approach the effects volume: absortion and scattering coefficients. 

    In the examples of top coat, my base layer is a diffuse layer. Generaly I only use scatter & transmit in top coat with fresnel when I use transmission in my base layer). But is a "dark" parameter to me. For example in translucency (not in top coat), if I set my base color to green and my translucency color to red, and select "scatter only", why don't  I see a green objet? If I see yellow some light has to be transmitted to the inside the object and go back, and then mix with the green. Where is the absortion of the remainder color? 

    Thanks in advanced     

     

  • Arnold CArnold C Posts: 740
    edited May 2016

     

    DOrdiales said:

    Thanks for your comments Arnold (and sorry for my English). I began to made my renders with Octane. In Octane you work with absortion and scattering (and include the three colors!). In documentation they usually talk about absorption (in union with scattering). For that reason to me is more natural to see the transmitted color like its complementary. I know is not the focus in DAZ. Like you say if I use 0.75 in transmitted color (for example in red channel), 0.25 is the percentage of color absorbed in the distance indicated in transmitted color (you have a very good post about it). I think is a semantic question, I prefer use transmission to refer when light pass from one mediun to another (in a general form)... Specific after the way of transmission: translucency or refraction. And finally approach the effects volume: absortion and scattering coefficients. 

    In the examples of top coat, my base layer is a diffuse layer. Generaly I only use scatter & transmit in top coat with fresnel when I use transmission in my base layer). But is a "dark" parameter to me. For example in translucency (not in top coat), if I set my base color to green and my translucency color to red, and select "scatter only", why don't  I see a green objet? If I see yellow some light has to be transmitted to the inside the object and go back, and then mix with the green. Where is the absortion of the remainder color? 

    Thanks in advanced     

    No worries. I'm not a native english speake (writer) myself. And I'm very certain that your english is a whole lot better than my spanish. wink You're right, that's mostly a semantic question, since absorption is involved and even NVIDIA uses the term "Absorption" in their MDL Handbook. But in case of of absorption vs. transmission I like to name the child by it's proper name, that prevents a lot of misunderstandings. Since the "Volume" group parameter "Transmitted Color" determines the amount of radiation transmitted through a material, Transmission would be the child's proper name. But that could just be me, I can be very picky sometimes. laugh

     

    The easiest answer which mode to use ("Scatter Only" vs. "Scatter & Reflect") lies in the nature of the material one wants to simulate. (And in section 1.2. Basic principles of MDL of the MDL Handbook [for those who don't have the slightest clue what we are talking about right now and haven't heard about that book can take a look at http://mdlhandbook.com/. There's even a PDF version available for easier, and offline, reading.]).

    So one has just to check his materials properties to the states pictured at 1.2.1. Idea #1: there it says, that Light is only reflected, transmitted and emitted. Since any material in our physical world is reflective, the answer, if that material would have reflective properties, is always Yes.

    If that material is now either transparent or translucent, the answer, if that material has transmissive properties, would be also Yes. So the proper mode will be "Scatter & Transmit": a certain amount, depending on the materials' Index of Refraction, will be reflected, the remainder transmitted to a lower layer(s). (That means that such a material would also have "Volume" group properties). "Scatter Only" is the way insulators (metals) interact with light: a percental amount of light is reflected, the remainder will be absorbed. 

    I am using the rule of thumb: "Color Effect" modes (on every layer) for insulators always "Scatter Only", for dielectrics (on any "Top Coat Layering Mode") always "Scatter & Reflect". That way you'll be always on the safe side. Since "Base Color Effect" only appears when "Translucency Weight" is set to something > 0.00, "Scatter Only" only for materials with "Thin Walled" on (doesn't make much sense to set a transmissive behaviour when there's nothing left to transmit to. laugh).

    The answer to your question in short: that would depend on if the Translucency parameters on Iray Uber's Base would be a seperate layer, since the specular_bsdf modes handles passing non-reflected radiation between layers. Checking DAZ's "irayubermaterial.mdl" (residing in .\DAZ 3D\DAZStudio4\shaders\iray\daz_3d) in Notepad+, lines 145 - 155 and 2361-2371, I see it being only a part of the Base (layer) and not a layer on its own. Imagine the Iray Uber Base shader like an onion: any layer (Base, Metallic Flake, Top Coat, Volume) represents a seperate onion skin. To make sure that any of the subsequent layers receive their share of radiation one needs to choose the proper specular_bsdf mode.

    mjc1016 said:

    Just downloaded it last night...still haven't read it, but...what version of Iray does it 'go with'.  I haven't quite figured that out, yet.

    Yeah, that's the question. There isn't a mention on the Iray website or in the papers, so I went and asked in the NVIDIA Advanced Rendering Forum. Let's hope it will be Iray 2016.1 and DAZ will implement that soon.smiley (Not DAZ soon™). laugh

    Post edited by Arnold C on
  • nonesuch00nonesuch00 Posts: 18,333

    Well to me absorption isn't transmission and even the sun absorbs some frequencies of energy. It must as it is a fusion reactor.

  • Arnold CArnold C Posts: 740
    edited May 2016
    nonesuch00 said:

    Well to me absorption isn't transmission and even the sun absorbs some frequencies of energy. It must as it is a fusion reactor.

    To me neither, that's why I prefer the child's proper names. smiley And even DAZ got it right by labeling the transmission dependant subgroup parameters of the Volume group "Transmission". 

    Well, in case of MDL the sun's more an emissive material. smiley Although with subsurface scattering properties. I read in an article, that a photon born at sun's core needs about a million years to get to the surface due to previously been heavily scattered around. So the light we see when it enters our view is of an age just when our far ancestors during the calabrian age ran around in furs using stone-made tools. And that's only for our little G-type main-sequence star. I wonder how long they'd need for one of those huge M-type ones. angel

    So, anytime you feel old, look at the sunlight's photons around you. cheeky

    Post edited by Arnold C on
  • KatsumendKatsumend Posts: 4
    Arnold C. said:

     

     

    The easiest answer which mode to use ("Scatter Only" vs. "Scatter & Reflect") lies in the nature of the material one wants to simulate. (And in section 1.2. Basic principles of MDL of the MDL Handbook [for those who don't have the slightest clue what we are talking about right now and haven't heard about that book can take a look at http://mdlhandbook.com/. There's even a PDF version available for easier, and offline, reading.]).

    That's an extraordinarily useful link, thank you!!

     

  • DOrdialesDOrdiales Posts: 32
    Arnold C. said:

     

    DOrdiales said:

    Thanks for your comments Arnold (and sorry for my English). I began to made my renders with Octane. In Octane you work with absortion and scattering (and include the three colors!). In documentation they usually talk about absorption (in union with scattering). For that reason to me is more natural to see the transmitted color like its complementary. I know is not the focus in DAZ. Like you say if I use 0.75 in transmitted color (for example in red channel), 0.25 is the percentage of color absorbed in the distance indicated in transmitted color (you have a very good post about it). I think is a semantic question, I prefer use transmission to refer when light pass from one mediun to another (in a general form)... Specific after the way of transmission: translucency or refraction. And finally approach the effects volume: absortion and scattering coefficients. 

    In the examples of top coat, my base layer is a diffuse layer. Generaly I only use scatter & transmit in top coat with fresnel when I use transmission in my base layer). But is a "dark" parameter to me. For example in translucency (not in top coat), if I set my base color to green and my translucency color to red, and select "scatter only", why don't  I see a green objet? If I see yellow some light has to be transmitted to the inside the object and go back, and then mix with the green. Where is the absortion of the remainder color? 

    Thanks in advanced     

    No worries. I'm not a native english speake (writer) myself. And I'm very certain that your english is a whole lot better than my spanish. wink You're right, that's mostly a semantic question, since absorption is involved and even NVIDIA uses the term "Absorption" in their MDL Handbook. But in case of of absorption vs. transmission I like to name the child by it's proper name, that prevents a lot of misunderstandings. Since the "Volume" group parameter "Transmitted Color" determines the amount of radiation transmitted through a material, Transmission would be the child's proper name. But that could just be me, I can be very picky sometimes. laugh

     

    The easiest answer which mode to use ("Scatter Only" vs. "Scatter & Reflect") lies in the nature of the material one wants to simulate. (And in section 1.2. Basic principles of MDL of the MDL Handbook [for those who don't have the slightest clue what we are talking about right now and haven't heard about that book can take a look at http://mdlhandbook.com/. There's even a PDF version available for easier, and offline, reading.]).

    So one has just to check his materials properties to the states pictured at 1.2.1. Idea #1: there it says, that Light is only reflected, transmitted and emitted. Since any material in our physical world is reflective, the answer, if that material would have reflective properties, is always Yes.

    If that material is now either transparent or translucent, the answer, if that material has transmissive properties, would be also Yes. So the proper mode will be "Scatter & Transmit": a certain amount, depending on the materials' Index of Refraction, will be reflected, the remainder transmitted to a lower layer(s). (That means that such a material would also have "Volume" group properties). "Scatter Only" is the way insulators (metals) interact with light: a percental amount of light is reflected, the remainder will be absorbed. 

    I am using the rule of thumb: "Color Effect" modes (on every layer) for insulators always "Scatter Only", for dielectrics (on any "Top Coat Layering Mode") always "Scatter & Reflect". That way you'll be always on the safe side. Since "Base Color Effect" only appears when "Translucency Weight" is set to something > 0.00, "Scatter Only" only for materials with "Thin Walled" on (doesn't make much sense to set a transmissive behaviour when there's nothing left to transmit to. laugh).

    The answer to your question in short: that would depend on if the Translucency parameters on Iray Uber's Base would be a seperate layer, since the specular_bsdf modes handles passing non-reflected radiation between layers. Checking DAZ's "irayubermaterial.mdl" (residing in .\DAZ 3D\DAZStudio4\shaders\iray\daz_3d) in Notepad+, lines 145 - 155 and 2361-2371, I see it being only a part of the Base (layer) and not a layer on its own. Imagine the Iray Uber Base shader like an onion: any layer (Base, Metallic Flake, Top Coat, Volume) represents a seperate onion skin. To make sure that any of the subsequent layers receive their share of radiation one needs to choose the proper specular_bsdf mode.

    mjc1016 said:

    Just downloaded it last night...still haven't read it, but...what version of Iray does it 'go with'.  I haven't quite figured that out, yet.

    Yeah, that's the question. There isn't a mention on the Iray website or in the papers, so I went and asked in the NVIDIA Advanced Rendering Forum. Let's hope it will be Iray 2016.1 and DAZ will implement that soon.smiley (Not DAZ soon™). laugh

    Arnold, give me some time wink I'm in a bussy week. And I want answer you with an image example: next weekend. 

  • Arnold CArnold C Posts: 740
    mjc1016 said:

    Just downloaded it last night...still haven't read it, but...what version of Iray does it 'go with'.  I haven't quite figured that out, yet.

    Jan from NVIDIA says: "Iray starts supporting colored scattering from version 2016.1 on ". Means we'd have to wait a lil' bit since DAZ just got 2015.3.9 into their recent Beta build. smiley

  • DOrdialesDOrdiales Posts: 32
    Arnold C. said:

     

    DOrdiales said:

    Thanks for your comments Arnold (and sorry for my English). I began to made my renders with Octane. In Octane you work with absortion and scattering (and include the three colors!). In documentation they usually talk about absorption (in union with scattering). For that reason to me is more natural to see the transmitted color like its complementary. I know is not the focus in DAZ. Like you say if I use 0.75 in transmitted color (for example in red channel), 0.25 is the percentage of color absorbed in the distance indicated in transmitted color (you have a very good post about it). I think is a semantic question, I prefer use transmission to refer when light pass from one mediun to another (in a general form)... Specific after the way of transmission: translucency or refraction. And finally approach the effects volume: absortion and scattering coefficients. 

    In the examples of top coat, my base layer is a diffuse layer. Generaly I only use scatter & transmit in top coat with fresnel when I use transmission in my base layer). But is a "dark" parameter to me. For example in translucency (not in top coat), if I set my base color to green and my translucency color to red, and select "scatter only", why don't  I see a green objet? If I see yellow some light has to be transmitted to the inside the object and go back, and then mix with the green. Where is the absortion of the remainder color? 

    Thanks in advanced     

    No worries. I'm not a native english speake (writer) myself. And I'm very certain that your english is a whole lot better than my spanish. wink You're right, that's mostly a semantic question, since absorption is involved and even NVIDIA uses the term "Absorption" in their MDL Handbook. But in case of of absorption vs. transmission I like to name the child by it's proper name, that prevents a lot of misunderstandings. Since the "Volume" group parameter "Transmitted Color" determines the amount of radiation transmitted through a material, Transmission would be the child's proper name. But that could just be me, I can be very picky sometimes. laugh

     

    The easiest answer which mode to use ("Scatter Only" vs. "Scatter & Reflect") lies in the nature of the material one wants to simulate. (And in section 1.2. Basic principles of MDL of the MDL Handbook [for those who don't have the slightest clue what we are talking about right now and haven't heard about that book can take a look at http://mdlhandbook.com/. There's even a PDF version available for easier, and offline, reading.]).

    So one has just to check his materials properties to the states pictured at 1.2.1. Idea #1: there it says, that Light is only reflected, transmitted and emitted. Since any material in our physical world is reflective, the answer, if that material would have reflective properties, is always Yes.

    If that material is now either transparent or translucent, the answer, if that material has transmissive properties, would be also Yes. So the proper mode will be "Scatter & Transmit": a certain amount, depending on the materials' Index of Refraction, will be reflected, the remainder transmitted to a lower layer(s). (That means that such a material would also have "Volume" group properties). "Scatter Only" is the way insulators (metals) interact with light: a percental amount of light is reflected, the remainder will be absorbed. 

    I am using the rule of thumb: "Color Effect" modes (on every layer) for insulators always "Scatter Only", for dielectrics (on any "Top Coat Layering Mode") always "Scatter & Reflect". That way you'll be always on the safe side. Since "Base Color Effect" only appears when "Translucency Weight" is set to something > 0.00, "Scatter Only" only for materials with "Thin Walled" on (doesn't make much sense to set a transmissive behaviour when there's nothing left to transmit to. laugh).

    The answer to your question in short: that would depend on if the Translucency parameters on Iray Uber's Base would be a seperate layer, since the specular_bsdf modes handles passing non-reflected radiation between layers. Checking DAZ's "irayubermaterial.mdl" (residing in .\DAZ 3D\DAZStudio4\shaders\iray\daz_3d) in Notepad+, lines 145 - 155 and 2361-2371, I see it being only a part of the Base (layer) and not a layer on its own. Imagine the Iray Uber Base shader like an onion: any layer (Base, Metallic Flake, Top Coat, Volume) represents a seperate onion skin. To make sure that any of the subsequent layers receive their share of radiation one needs to choose the proper specular_bsdf mode.

    mjc1016 said:

    Just downloaded it last night...still haven't read it, but...what version of Iray does it 'go with'.  I haven't quite figured that out, yet.

    Yeah, that's the question. There isn't a mention on the Iray website or in the papers, so I went and asked in the NVIDIA Advanced Rendering Forum. Let's hope it will be Iray 2016.1 and DAZ will implement that soon.smiley (Not DAZ soon™). laugh

     

    Arnold, 

    These are my conclusions. The lines 172-182 of the irayubermaterial.mdl use a weighted layer function (4.2 Weighted layering - MDL Handbook) for the case where exist diffuse reflection and diffuse transmission (when we select a value betwen 0.00 and 1.00 in "Translucency Weight"): 

    	bsdf diffuse_bsdf = ( mixing_difuse_and_trans )?		df::weighted_layer(			weight: diffuse_bsdf_weight,			layer: df::diffuse_reflection_bsdf (				roughness: diffuse_roughness,				tint: diffuse_bsdf_tint			),			base: df::diffuse_transmission_bsdf ( //diffuse transmission improves sampling of the sss				tint: translucency_color			)		)

    I have maded the following examples (attach image):

    1. I set Base Color to green: 0.00 1.00 0.00 => Figure 1 - Col - 2. A "pure" diffuse reflection.
    2. I set (Col -1 & Col - 2) :
      1. Translucency Weight: 0.50. Therefore 50% of the light is reflected and 50% of the ligt is transmitted.
      2. Translucency Color: 1.00 0.00 0.00 (red color). So green & blue are absorbed in transmission.
    3. Figure 2 - (Col - 3) Scatter Only
      1. Diffuse Reflection: green is reflected and (red & blue) absorbed. And thanks! Before your explanation, I  believed all the remainder of the source light is absorbed, but I saw, that's not true. We can see the red color exit from the left side of the figure. OK! Why? Because, of course, there are 50% of source light that is transmit with independence of the reflected light. In Col - 3, "X" means absortion, "<--" reflection and "-->" transmission.
      2. Diffuse Transmission: red is transmitted and (green & blue) absorbed.
    4. Figure 3 - (Col - 4) Scatter & Transmit
      1. Diffuse Reflection: green is reflected like before, but (red & blue = magenta) are transmitted.
      2. Diffuse Transmission: there are more red (16,6% + 16,6%). OK! The additional quantity of red when exit from the object add to the gren and result in a yellowish aspect. But I expext blue too! But I see the blue transmitted from the diffuse layer is absorbed (that's the reason of the right "X" nex to blue square in col - 4).
    5. Figure - 4 & 5 (Col -5) So if I set Base color to white, I think the Base Color Effect is indifferent. Why? Because "pure" white color reflect all the light and not absorbed anything. With Scatter Only all the light is reflected and anything absorbed (there isn't a remainder). With Scatter & Transmit there isn't a remainder to transmit to the translucency layer.

    What do you think?  

    Base-Color-Effects.png
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  • Arnold CArnold C Posts: 740
    edited May 2016
    DOrdiales said:

    Arnold, 

    These are my conclusions. The lines 172-182 of the irayubermaterial.mdl use a weighted layer function (4.2 Weighted layering - MDL Handbook) for the case where exist diffuse reflection and diffuse transmission (when we select a value betwen 0.00 and 1.00 in "Translucency Weight"): 

    	bsdf diffuse_bsdf = ( mixing_difuse_and_trans )?		df::weighted_layer(			weight: diffuse_bsdf_weight,			layer: df::diffuse_reflection_bsdf (				roughness: diffuse_roughness,				tint: diffuse_bsdf_tint			),			base: df::diffuse_transmission_bsdf ( //diffuse transmission improves sampling of the sss				tint: translucency_color			)		)

    I have maded the following examples (attach image):

    1. I set Base Color to green: 0.00 1.00 0.00 => Figure 1 - Col - 2. A "pure" diffuse reflection.
    2. I set (Col -1 & Col - 2) :
      1. Translucency Weight: 0.50. Therefore 50% of the light is reflected and 50% of the ligt is transmitted.
      2. Translucency Color: 1.00 0.00 0.00 (red color). So green & blue are absorbed in transmission.
    3. Figure 2 - (Col - 3) Scatter Only
      1. Diffuse Reflection: green is reflected and (red & blue) absorbed. And thanks! Before your explanation, I  believed all the remainder of the source light is absorbed, but I saw, that's not true. We can see the red color exit from the left side of the figure. OK! Why? Because, of course, there are 50% of source light that is transmit with independence of the reflected light. In Col - 3, "X" means absortion, "<--" reflection and "-->" transmission.
      2. Diffuse Transmission: red is transmitted and (green & blue) absorbed.
    4. Figure 3 - (Col - 4) Scatter & Transmit
      1. Diffuse Reflection: green is reflected like before, but (red & blue = magenta) are transmitted.
      2. Diffuse Transmission: there are more red (16,6% + 16,6%). OK! The additional quantity of red when exit from the object add to the gren and result in a yellowish aspect. But I expext blue too! But I see the blue transmitted from the diffuse layer is absorbed (that's the reason of the right "X" nex to blue square in col - 4).
    5. Figure - 4 & 5 (Col -5) So if I set Base color to white, I think the Base Color Effect is indifferent. Why? Because "pure" white color reflect all the light and not absorbed anything. With Scatter Only all the light is reflected and anything absorbed (there isn't a remainder). With Scatter & Transmit there isn't a remainder to transmit to the translucency layer.

    What do you think?  

    Oww, my bad, sorry. sad

    When talking about the different Color Effect Modes I meant actually the "Glossy" & "Top Coat Color" modes, which handle Specular and Glossy reflection, by the "specular_bsdf" and "simple_glossy_bsdf" distribution functions, as covered in Chapters 3.6 "Specular interaction at a surface"  (pgs. 40-49) and 3.7 Glossy interaction (pgs. 49-52) in the MDL Handbook.

    Base Color and Translucency Color are part of a materials' Diffuse properties, "diffuse_bsdf" (Chapters 3.2 to 3.3 [pgs. 28-34]), which is a completely different pair of shoes. On this one, there can be either Diffuse Reflection (diffuse_reflection_bsdf) or Diffuse Transmission (diffuse_transmission_bsdf). So either reflection of transmission, not both.

    If I got that right, DAZ combined that into a weighted layer, one for Base (Diffuse) Color and one for Translucency Color. Base uses "diffuse_reflection_bsdf" and Translucency "diffuse_transmission_bsdf". Why there is a switch seems a bit of nonsense, except if both layers would be at "diffuse_reflection_bsdf" by default, Scatter Only, and it would make the change for Translucency when switching to Scatter & Transmit (Diffuse Color layer still uses "diffuse_reflection_bsdf", but Translucency Color layer now uses "diffuse_transmission_bsdf"). Or the other way around, depending on which layer is on top in the end. Pictures 1-3 (Col - 2 to Col - 4) of your example would support that theory.

    Translucency Weight doesn't define the amount of light reflected, it defines the final weight of the Diffuse layer in the mix, as given in Line 159 of the "irayubermaterial.mdl":

    float diffuse_weight = mixing_difuse_and_trans ? (1-translucency_weight) : 1.0;

     

    The amount of light reflected is determined by "diffuse_reflection_bsdf", since "diffuse_transmission_bsdf" doesn't have any reflection properties.

    Post edited by Arnold C on
  • DOrdialesDOrdiales Posts: 32
    Arnold C. said:

    Oww, my bad, sorry. sad

    Arnold C. said:

    When talking about the different Color Effect Modes I meant actually the "Glossy" & "Top Coat Color" modes, which handle Specular and Glossy reflection, by the "specular_bsdf" and "simple_glossy_bsdf" distribution functions, as covered in Chapters 3.6 "Specular interaction at a surface"  (pgs. 40-49) and 3.7 Glossy interaction (pgs. 49-52) in the MDL Handbook.

    Base Color and Translucency Color are part of a materials' Diffuse properties, "diffuse_bsdf" (Chapters 3.2 to 3.3 [pgs. 28-34]), which is a completely different pair of shoes. On this one, there can be either Diffuse Reflection (diffuse_reflection_bsdf) or Diffuse Transmission (diffuse_transmission_bsdf). So either reflection of transmission, not both.

    If I got that right, DAZ combined that into a weighted layer, one for Base (Diffuse) Color and one for Translucency Color. Base uses "diffuse_reflection_bsdf" and Translucency "diffuse_transmission_bsdf". Why there is a switch seems a bit of nonsense, except if both layers would be at "diffuse_reflection_bsdf" by default, Scatter Only, and it would make the change for Translucency when switching to Scatter & Transmit (Diffuse Color layer still uses "diffuse_reflection_bsdf", but Translucency Color layer now uses "diffuse_transmission_bsdf"). Or the other way around, depending on which layer is on top in the end. Pictures 1-3 (Col - 2 to Col - 4) of your example would support that theory.

    Translucency Weight doesn't define the amount of light reflected, it defines the final weight of the Diffuse layer in the mix, as given in Line 159 of the "irayubermaterial.mdl":

    float diffuse_weight = mixing_difuse_and_trans ? (1-translucency_weight) : 1.0;

     

    The amount of light reflected is determined by "diffuse_reflection_bsdf", since "diffuse_transmission_bsdf" doesn't have any reflection properties.

     

    I was, who "mix" the "Base Color Effects" wink 

    Do you know a "User Defined Language" for MDL in Notepad++. I only found: http://docs.notepad-plus-plus.org/index.php?title=User_Defined_Language_Files

    I upload a .rar with my presets in DAZ to reproduce some of the examples of the MDL Handbook. I have installed in the following path (Windows):

    • C:\Users\[Your_User]\Documents\DAZ 3D\Studio\My Library\Presets\05 Shaders\01 MDL\03
    • C:\Users\[Your_User]\Documents\DAZ 3D\Studio\My Library\Presets\05 Shaders\01 MDL\04

    I hadn't red the code yet. I made them by "interpretation"...

    Regards

     

     

     

     

    rar
    rar
    MDL.rar
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  • ToyenToyen Posts: 1,918

    I played with Olympia's skin settings today a bit.


  • evilded777evilded777 Posts: 2,466

    Advice on nails? Last thing I am really fiddling with and trying to get to a point I find acceptable.  Mostly I end with dull pink nail polish, and that's no good on most of the guys I tend to render, nor for the girls I rarely do.

    So how do the nails differ from the skin for you folks?

  • mjc1016mjc1016 Posts: 15,001
    edited May 2016
    Toyen said:

    I played with Olympia's skin settings today a bit.

    Her nose isn't quite right...it's a bit too translucent.  About what I'd expect for a small child/infant or the very aged.

    Post edited by mjc1016 on
  • DOrdialesDOrdiales Posts: 32
    evilded777 said:

    Advice on nails? Last thing I am really fiddling with and trying to get to a point I find acceptable.  Mostly I end with dull pink nail polish, and that's no good on most of the guys I tend to render, nor for the girls I rarely do.

    So how do the nails differ from the skin for you folks?

    In my case, I only changed the Transmitted Measurement Distance to 0.20 (in skin I have use 1.00) and de SSS Amount to 0 (no SSS).

     

    Nails.png
    400 x 400 - 223K
  • evilded777evilded777 Posts: 2,466
    DOrdiales said:
    evilded777 said:

    Advice on nails? Last thing I am really fiddling with and trying to get to a point I find acceptable.  Mostly I end with dull pink nail polish, and that's no good on most of the guys I tend to render, nor for the girls I rarely do.

    So how do the nails differ from the skin for you folks?

    In my case, I only changed the Transmitted Measurement Distance to 0.20 (in skin I have use 1.00) and de SSS Amount to 0 (no SSS).

     

    Thanks for the advice.  I'll try that.  Are your Glossy channels any different? I would imagine so...

  • j cadej cade Posts: 2,310
    evilded777 said:

    Advice on nails? Last thing I am really fiddling with and trying to get to a point I find acceptable.  Mostly I end with dull pink nail polish, and that's no good on most of the guys I tend to render, nor for the girls I rarely do.

    So how do the nails differ from the skin for you folks?

    For Gen 3 I actually make the nails slightly transparent, when I want to go full nutjob I add a bit of tiling bump map to simulate the long grain (if that sounds fancy its basically just noise filter + directional blur and took 3 minutes to make. Its also completely unnecessary for 90% of scenes) for this render I was using my usual skin settings lowered the sss amount to .13 set refraction weight to .2 and refraction roughness to 0 (set share glossy inputs to off) for male/female madeup/natural all I have to do is adjust the glossy roughness and strength to taste

    nail.png
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  • evilded777evilded777 Posts: 2,466
    edited May 2016

    Mine are just coming out flat..and not at all natural looking.  Not sure what I am missing. I'll post some settings later, let you experts pick them apart.

     

    Perhaps I could stick this here, and you could pick this apart too.

    Post edited by evilded777 on
  • DOrdialesDOrdiales Posts: 32
    evilded777 said:

    Advice on nails? Last thing I am really fiddling with and trying to get to a point I find acceptable.  Mostly I end with dull pink nail polish, and that's no good on most of the guys I tend to render, nor for the girls I rarely do.

    So how do the nails differ from the skin for you folks?

    No, they don't.

  • JD_MortalJD_Mortal Posts: 760

    To make nails look more realistic, you have to add some bump-map bulge to the cuticle, which is not on any models.

    They seem to think the cuticles run tapered right into the nail, but the nails are like horns, and push-up the cuticle, leaving a glossy bump of smooth skin where the nail runs underneath. No-one seems to do art-studies anymore, they just guess or do what is in their heads, or copy other bad ideas from cheap games, portraying them onto real-world models. (Like most Daz hair is game-hair from bad 3D games of the past, not realistic in any way, as it could easily be.)

    They should also be a rough glossy, and streaked surface. Painting with a light tone run-off arch from the cuticle, that sharpens to a pink-ish tone, with a soft blend to yellowish/white near the tip, before it changes to the ugly off-white and tarnished yellow/white of the "extension".

    Use real nails as a guide.

     

     

    nails.jpg
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  • 3Diva3Diva Posts: 11,749
    JD_Mortal said:

    To make nails look more realistic, you have to add some bump-map bulge to the cuticle, which is not on any models.

    They seem to think the cuticles run tapered right into the nail, but the nails are like horns, and push-up the cuticle, leaving a glossy bump of smooth skin where the nail runs underneath. No-one seems to do art-studies anymore, they just guess or do what is in their heads, or copy other bad ideas from cheap games, portraying them onto real-world models. (Like most Daz hair is game-hair from bad 3D games of the past, not realistic in any way, as it could easily be.)

    They should also be a rough glossy, and streaked surface. Painting with a light tone run-off arch from the cuticle, that sharpens to a pink-ish tone, with a soft blend to yellowish/white near the tip, before it changes to the ugly off-white and tarnished yellow/white of the "extension".

    Use real nails as a guide.

     

     

    Excellent advice! And yeah, I agree about the nails and hair. Heck there are many areas that still need work (don't even get me start on the back of knees and armpits). lol We still have a ways to go before we've hit total realism looks with these models. But the ride there is fun and tweaking characters personally to add more realism can be quite satisfying. 

    This is nice advice on creating more realistic looking nails. 

  • RAMWolffRAMWolff Posts: 10,256

    That is really good advice and you are right.  It's a guessing game for allot of folks rather than researching a little bit! 

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